Zastava_101

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.
There are still talks about possible Firebird or GTO which will be similar to new Camaro. Pontiac would never do that if G8 was supposed to replace GTO.

bt4

Maybe. Though, personally, I never held the image of the GTO as that of a "Pony" car. (Muscle car, yes, pony car, no). But it is an interesting thought. I hadn't thought of the G8 in terms of the Grand Prix.

Knight

The GTO was supposed to challenge the mustang. This car is not a GTO replacement, the GTO replacement is the Camaro.

bt4

Never, say never. Though MATKO raised point that I had not considered, Pontiac will probably chose to market the G8 more along the lines of the Grand Prix. And I'll concede Pontiac may add another RWD V8 to its line up, economy willing.

I still don't understand your strenous objection to the GTO comparison. Afterall, I certainly am not the only one to draw such comparisons. Or hardly the first to make the Holden/GTO link.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com..._g8/index.html

'Deja vu' is mentioned in the very first paragraph of this article by a GM oriented publication. Even AutoWeeks review of the G8 couldn't end without mentioning the GTO. NewCarTestDrive.COM mentions the GTO in the 2nd sentence of the review. In my first post on this thread I included a link to the Car and Driver review of the G8. The very first sentence mentions not the G8, but the GTO.

I would have thought, and evidently more than one automotive reviewer seems to think, that a comparison between the GTO and G8 was is not unusual at all.

Zastava_101

Probably the only reason why they compared it is because both cars are from Australia, not because G8 is supposed to replace GTO.

Let's say Ford decides to sell performance version of Falcon in the USA. Would that car be compared to Mustang?

bt4

Ok, when does Pontiac start selling the new Camaro? (Tongue in cheek.)

I understand what you are saying, though I'm not sure I completely agree with the assesment that the GTO was built to challenge the Mustang. The GTO was introduced before the S197 and at a much higher price point.

With no entry level (V6) the larger size and the higher price tag, I never saw the GTO as a direct competitor to the Mustang, JMO. However, from the sales, it was an opinion shared by a majority of the buying public.

bt4

If Ford were to discountue the Mustang and re-introduce a new model RWD, V8-powered vehicle that they want to market as a performance car I would say the comparison would be inevitable.

Zastava_101

When Chevy introduced supercharged Impala SS a year after they discontinued Camaro, did people compare those two cars?

bt4

Since you want to play hypothetical games here. Pretend the year is 2005, I walk into a Pontiac dealership and tell the salesman I am in the market for RWD V8 high-performance car. What would the salesman show me?

Now pretend the year is 2008. I walk into a Pontiac dealership and say I am in the market for a RWD V8 performance car. What would the salesman show me?

bt4

Right back at you--were they built on essentially the same plaftform from the same facility for GM by Holden?

Zastava_101

Walk into Chevy dealer and ask for high performance FF car. They might recommend anything from Cobalt SS, Monte Carlo SS, Impala SS, maybe even Malibu SS.

Would that put all of those cars in the same group?

Zastava_101

How about this: 2009 Camaro and 2010 Impala will share platform. How many people will actually compare these two cars? How many people would walk into Chevy dealers and have a hard decision to make which one to buy?

rhumb

The G8 has a newer chassis than the GTO, so aside from other comparison considerations -- 2dr vs 4dr, sedan vs coupe, etc. -- any analogies and comparisons will be somewhat broad.

The GTO had very good/excellent handling, performance and interior quality. It main downfall was its nice but rather dated styling. Even if the sedate styling was in line with the original GTO's, most buyers tend to equate GTOs with the flamboyant late '60's iterations.

As for Charger R/T vs G8 GT, hard to make a hard judgement just yet, what without any thorough reviews on the G8 yet. But some predictions would be that, performance-wise, they'll be fairly close with similar size, weight, power and chassis. Probably the tie will go to the company that tunes these equivalent parts better. As for aesthetics, that of course is quite personal. I, however, prefer the G8. The exterior looks leaner, sleeker and sportier than the blocky, chunky Charger, which, to my eye, looks like some hot rod Checker Marathon. The interior too I would give to the G8 as just being a cleaner, more modern design. And if the excellent materials and fit-n-finish of the GTO was any indication, that aspect should be superior as well.

And if performance issues are a hesitation, remember, the G8 will be releasing a 6 speed manual in a few months after introduction and you could readily bet your paycheck that there will be even higher performance versions coming online before long too, as they already have in Australia and England.

What might this mean for the Mustang and its putative future competion, the Camaro and probably GTO? Well, the Zeta platform seems to be very well designed, engineered and affordable, the latter probably a function of its broad useage across many models and the resultant economies of scale. I would expect the Camaro to, predictably, be essentially a short wheelbase version of this platform and a price maybe a grand or two under the comparable G8 model. The GTO might be a bit larger, more luxurious gentleman's GT coupe along the lines of the last GTO, but with more exciting styling and probably similar pricing -- a grand or two above the G8.

In any case, I think the G8 bodes very well for the future Camaro and GTO, both in terms of performance and value, and that the '09 Mustang is going to have its work cut out for it to remain competitive. Of course, GM could flub the execution of the Camaro and GTO, and Ford could ace the '09 Stang refresh. Guess we'll all have to wait another year or so to know for sure.

bt4

No, of course not. But you didn't bother to address my question. All you do is respond with another question. And I notice that not once did you state in plain terms why you objected to the comparison between the GTO and the G8, even though automotive journalists are already making the comparison.

In case it escaped your notice, in 2005 the RWD, V8 performance offering from Pontiac (not Chevy, not Ford, et al) was the Pontiac GTO supplied by Holden.

In 2008, the RWD, V8 performance offering from Pontiac (not Chevy, not Ford, et al) is the G8 supplied by Holden.

If you do not see any similarities there. There is no point in continuing this discussion. You are entitled to your opinion. And that is all this debate is, opinion--I happen to see numerous similiarities between the G8 and GTO, you don't.

And actually, I have enjoyed the debate, thank you.

Zastava_101

Answers to those two questions were obvious so I didn't really think I need to answer them. I got your point.

You seemed that compare them because they're both RDW and built by Holden.

Cobalt SS, Monte Carlo SS, Impala SS and Malibu SS are all FF and built by Chevy. Why can't we compare them?

bt4

Actually you don't have to wait for a comparison of twins sharing a platform like that. The G35 and 350Z are compared routinely. Go to any Nissan or Infiniti forum for a discussion on what is essentially the same car.

The debate over which one to buy gets as heated as any discussion on this board (except maybe the IRS vs SLA!)

Zastava_101

I'm not surprised. 350Z and G35 are same cars. Both coupes.

bt4

Does this mean that you don't believe anyone will compare the Impala and Camaro?

Zastava_101

Yep. One is large 4 door sedan, other is smaller 2 door coupe.

bt4

Since you still seem to object to any comparison between the GTO and the G8, tell me why.

Comparison doesn't always mean like (similar) comparison also can highlight differnces. Why do reject any comparison of the two cars?