Camaro or Challenger?
12/31/05, 01:32 AM
#1
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I guess i can't post the picture of the camaro, here's a link:
http://tinypic.com/icjup5.jpg
And the challenger:
[attachmentid=41916]
I personally prefer the camaro by a long shot.
http://tinypic.com/icjup5.jpg
And the challenger:
[attachmentid=41916]
I personally prefer the camaro by a long shot.
12/31/05, 10:53 AM
#2
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Tie.
Hard to say at this point really, especially given the dearth of specific technical specs (motors, trannies, suspension, etc.), especially for the Camaro. Both have great potential, but the proof will be in the execution of the concepts. In any case, I hope Ford isn't resting on its Mustang laurals because it's no-real-competition days in clover are soon coming to an end.
The Challenger, while very good looking, seems to go past a "retro" theme almost to a "repro." Perhaps a more stylized, modern interpretation would have been nicer and might have a longer shelf life.
The Camaro pics, obviously early design concepts, seem to be a bit more interpretive of a '69 Camaro rather than a full on disinterment of one, a retro-inspired design much more rooted in today rather than a full-on 40-year flash back.
Wonder if any non-U.S. manufacturers will get into the Pony Car fray. Certainly some of the Japanese makers have all the necessary bits on their parts shelves (V8s, RWD chassis, etc.) to piece together a Pony Car. I can't imagine they haven't seen the Mustang's run away success.
Now THAT would be interesting.
Hard to say at this point really, especially given the dearth of specific technical specs (motors, trannies, suspension, etc.), especially for the Camaro. Both have great potential, but the proof will be in the execution of the concepts. In any case, I hope Ford isn't resting on its Mustang laurals because it's no-real-competition days in clover are soon coming to an end.
The Challenger, while very good looking, seems to go past a "retro" theme almost to a "repro." Perhaps a more stylized, modern interpretation would have been nicer and might have a longer shelf life.
The Camaro pics, obviously early design concepts, seem to be a bit more interpretive of a '69 Camaro rather than a full on disinterment of one, a retro-inspired design much more rooted in today rather than a full-on 40-year flash back.
Wonder if any non-U.S. manufacturers will get into the Pony Car fray. Certainly some of the Japanese makers have all the necessary bits on their parts shelves (V8s, RWD chassis, etc.) to piece together a Pony Car. I can't imagine they haven't seen the Mustang's run away success.
Now THAT would be interesting.
12/31/05, 11:18 AM
#3
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I definitely prefer the Challenger personally. I prefer the looks and it seems DCX would be more likely to pull it off and do it well.
What puzzles me is this doom-and-gloom attitude for the Mustang. If the Challenger does get built (I almost hope not, because the local Dodge dealer will likely have to take a restraining order out on my father to keep him from drooling all over it) it'll be based on the LX chassis, which means that for an equivalent model it will assuredly cost more than the Charger. Which puts the most basic V6 (3.5) model at a $23k (or more) base price tag, for a V6 SXT equivalent we're talking $26 roughly, or base Mustang GT money. For a Challenger R/T with the 5.7L we're talking $30-$31k for the BASE price. Want an SRT-8, we're talking $40k+, not very Mustang competitive to me. Certainly no more than the GTO, although the Challenger would likely benefit from a higher "cool" factor. If only due to looks and the Hemi badge (some people do get swayed by that little white lie).
As for the Camaro, well this is GM we're talking about, so with details being rather light I will only address likelihoods. Given the available platforms, powertrain options, recent model history within GM, and the execution of the GTO I conclude that the Camaro will likely cost a few thousand more than it's equivalent Mustang model, be barely, if any faster at a similar price point, and have a much poorer interior. Now I do see the possibility of a Camaro model that would be more than the GT, less than the GT500 and packing horsepower somewhere between them. I think this is likely. Of course, some people like to point to the rear axle in the Mustang and cry "It'll never compete with an IRS!", horse puckey, to put it politely. I'm not in either camp on that debate, I could care less about the methodology so long as the end result is up to snuff. And we've seen how big an advantage that IRS has been for the GTO...
EDIT: Just to address the Japanese pony car possibility, I'd love to see that myself, in fact I'd say it's been done before, see the Nissan 240SX. Particularly the S14 model. Unfortunately I don't see a manufacturer from Japan that could pull it off right now. Mazda won't, Honda won't, Toyota isn't going to. That leaves Mitsu and Nissan, with IMO Nissan being the most capable of doing so. If for no reason than the question of Mitsu having a RWD platform to build it on. As for Nissan, well they do have the 350Z and the G35. I don't see how they could do a car beneath the Z in the lineup, keep it cheaper, make it competitive with the Mustang performance-wise, and not step on the Z's toes, or the G35's either. If you wonder where my doubt comes from, let me remind you that in 1992 a 240SX (S13X) vert stickered at almost $30k and that was the non-turbo car.
What puzzles me is this doom-and-gloom attitude for the Mustang. If the Challenger does get built (I almost hope not, because the local Dodge dealer will likely have to take a restraining order out on my father to keep him from drooling all over it) it'll be based on the LX chassis, which means that for an equivalent model it will assuredly cost more than the Charger. Which puts the most basic V6 (3.5) model at a $23k (or more) base price tag, for a V6 SXT equivalent we're talking $26 roughly, or base Mustang GT money. For a Challenger R/T with the 5.7L we're talking $30-$31k for the BASE price. Want an SRT-8, we're talking $40k+, not very Mustang competitive to me. Certainly no more than the GTO, although the Challenger would likely benefit from a higher "cool" factor. If only due to looks and the Hemi badge (some people do get swayed by that little white lie).
As for the Camaro, well this is GM we're talking about, so with details being rather light I will only address likelihoods. Given the available platforms, powertrain options, recent model history within GM, and the execution of the GTO I conclude that the Camaro will likely cost a few thousand more than it's equivalent Mustang model, be barely, if any faster at a similar price point, and have a much poorer interior. Now I do see the possibility of a Camaro model that would be more than the GT, less than the GT500 and packing horsepower somewhere between them. I think this is likely. Of course, some people like to point to the rear axle in the Mustang and cry "It'll never compete with an IRS!", horse puckey, to put it politely. I'm not in either camp on that debate, I could care less about the methodology so long as the end result is up to snuff. And we've seen how big an advantage that IRS has been for the GTO...
EDIT: Just to address the Japanese pony car possibility, I'd love to see that myself, in fact I'd say it's been done before, see the Nissan 240SX. Particularly the S14 model. Unfortunately I don't see a manufacturer from Japan that could pull it off right now. Mazda won't, Honda won't, Toyota isn't going to. That leaves Mitsu and Nissan, with IMO Nissan being the most capable of doing so. If for no reason than the question of Mitsu having a RWD platform to build it on. As for Nissan, well they do have the 350Z and the G35. I don't see how they could do a car beneath the Z in the lineup, keep it cheaper, make it competitive with the Mustang performance-wise, and not step on the Z's toes, or the G35's either. If you wonder where my doubt comes from, let me remind you that in 1992 a 240SX (S13X) vert stickered at almost $30k and that was the non-turbo car.
12/31/05, 12:26 PM
#4
While the challenger could be considered overly retro, the design is clean, macho and aggressive. The camaro to me in concept form just seems to be too much of a mishmash of ideas. Until I see the final concept, the choice is challenger for me.
12/31/05, 12:41 PM
#5
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Originally posted by Galaxie@December 31, 2005, 1:29 PM
While the challenger could be considered overly retro, the design is clean, macho and aggressive. The camaro to me in concept form just seems to be too much of a mishmash of ideas. Until I see the final concept, the choice is challenger for me.
While the challenger could be considered overly retro, the design is clean, macho and aggressive. The camaro to me in concept form just seems to be too much of a mishmash of ideas. Until I see the final concept, the choice is challenger for me.
12/31/05, 01:06 PM
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Yeah Galaxie, i'll give you that. The challenger definitely cleaner, which is refreshing. I think both of these cars could actually end up looking better in production form. If they could clean up the camaro a bit, and take the retro down a notch or maybe two on the challenger, i think they'd both be awesome looking cars.
At this point we don't know too much about what'll be on the inside, i only really meant to compare the two in terms of looks. I've got more confidence in DCX at this point than GM, but of course, aren't they saying the Challenger could end up being near or above 4000 lbs? They shouldn't let that happen...
At this point we don't know too much about what'll be on the inside, i only really meant to compare the two in terms of looks. I've got more confidence in DCX at this point than GM, but of course, aren't they saying the Challenger could end up being near or above 4000 lbs? They shouldn't let that happen...
12/31/05, 02:22 PM
#8
what people forget, is those camaro mockups were never meant for our eyes. The showcar in detroit will probably look a lot better.
If you look at some of the clay models of the '05's they were all over the place as well.
http://bradbarnett.net/mustangs/time...5/sketches.htm
If you look at some of the clay models of the '05's they were all over the place as well.
http://bradbarnett.net/mustangs/time...5/sketches.htm
12/31/05, 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by rhumb@December 31, 2005, 10:56 AM
Certainly some of the Japanese makers have all the necessary bits on their parts shelves (V8s, RWD chassis, etc.) to piece together a Pony Car. I can't imagine they haven't seen the Mustang's run away success.
Now THAT would be interesting.
Certainly some of the Japanese makers have all the necessary bits on their parts shelves (V8s, RWD chassis, etc.) to piece together a Pony Car. I can't imagine they haven't seen the Mustang's run away success.
Now THAT would be interesting.
12/31/05, 07:01 PM
#10
Needs to be more Astony
Originally posted by BC_Shelby@December 31, 2005, 7:31 PM
They do (or rather they will): it's called the Infiniti GT-R (Skyline)
They do (or rather they will): it's called the Infiniti GT-R (Skyline)
1/1/06, 01:19 AM
#11
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Originally posted by Knight@December 31, 2005, 7:04 PM
actually thats pretty much what the 350z is supposed to be.
actually thats pretty much what the 350z is supposed to be.
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