05 GTO production cut already
11/22/04, 06:32 PM
#1
Mach 1 Member
Thread Starter
Autoweek
PHOENIX -- After a year of disappointing sales, Pontiac is scaling back production of the 2005 Pontiac GTO, which was touted as a halo car for the brand.
Pontiac will cut GTO production by about 30 percent next year, from its 2004 target of 1,300 to 1,500 units a month to 1,000 a month in 2005.
Larry Pryg, marketing manager for Pontiac's premium mid-sized cars, admitted Pontiac did not conduct enough initial market research on the GTO, misallocated inventory and missed its initial estimate.
"We will adjust production levels, and 12,000 units a year seems right for this vehicle," Pryg said at a press event here.
Through October, Pontiac sold 9,487 GTOs in the United States. Pontiac is offering a $3,500 national cash rebate on 2004 models.
Earlier, dealers had complained that the GTO suffered from bland styling and a high sticker price, and lacked incentives.
Adjusting allocation
Pontiac said imprudent allocation to dealerships was a bigger factor in the slow start. Pontiac overloaded its inventory in the U.S. north-central region, allocating 40 percent of the rear-wheel-drive GTO's initial production to those states in the middle of winter, when the handling problems of rear-drive vehicles in snow are most apparent.
"We wanted to reward those dealers," Pryg said, "but we couldn't neglect the other parts of the country, such as the West Coast, where we didn't have enough in our 30-day supply."
Pryg said 30 percent of 2005 GTO inventory will be allocated to the north-central region. The rest will be dispersed across the country.
This month some dealers still were receiving 2004 GTOs. GM has promised its dealers that production on the 2005 GTO would finish three months earlier than last year.
As for issues of styling and price, Pontiac hopes a stable price and a larger engine will attract more buyers.
The 2005 GTO gets a new engine, the LS2 6.0-liter V-8 with 400 hp. The previous engine pumped out 350 hp. To the relief of traditionalists, an optional hood scoop has been added, along with dual exhaust.
Duane Earl, sales manager at Sawyers Pontiac in East Lansing, Mich., says early criticisms of the GTOs were unfounded.
"There was a lot of bad press about it not looking like the old GTOs of the 1960s and '70s, but that's not what it was supposed to be about," says Earl, who sold 22 GTOs last year and has one order for the new model. "I think now that it is out there and people know what it's about, it will be welcomed."
Next-generation GTO
GM has hinted that the next-generation GTO, scheduled to appear on the Zeta rear-drive architecture for the 2007 or 2008 model year, will be a large departure from the current model.
Pontiac hopes to position the GTO as its version of the Chevrolet Corvette - an aspirational vehicle that is the "soul of the brand," says Pontiac spokesman Jim Hopson.
PHOENIX -- After a year of disappointing sales, Pontiac is scaling back production of the 2005 Pontiac GTO, which was touted as a halo car for the brand.
Pontiac will cut GTO production by about 30 percent next year, from its 2004 target of 1,300 to 1,500 units a month to 1,000 a month in 2005.
Larry Pryg, marketing manager for Pontiac's premium mid-sized cars, admitted Pontiac did not conduct enough initial market research on the GTO, misallocated inventory and missed its initial estimate.
"We will adjust production levels, and 12,000 units a year seems right for this vehicle," Pryg said at a press event here.
Through October, Pontiac sold 9,487 GTOs in the United States. Pontiac is offering a $3,500 national cash rebate on 2004 models.
Earlier, dealers had complained that the GTO suffered from bland styling and a high sticker price, and lacked incentives.
Adjusting allocation
Pontiac said imprudent allocation to dealerships was a bigger factor in the slow start. Pontiac overloaded its inventory in the U.S. north-central region, allocating 40 percent of the rear-wheel-drive GTO's initial production to those states in the middle of winter, when the handling problems of rear-drive vehicles in snow are most apparent.
"We wanted to reward those dealers," Pryg said, "but we couldn't neglect the other parts of the country, such as the West Coast, where we didn't have enough in our 30-day supply."
Pryg said 30 percent of 2005 GTO inventory will be allocated to the north-central region. The rest will be dispersed across the country.
This month some dealers still were receiving 2004 GTOs. GM has promised its dealers that production on the 2005 GTO would finish three months earlier than last year.
As for issues of styling and price, Pontiac hopes a stable price and a larger engine will attract more buyers.
The 2005 GTO gets a new engine, the LS2 6.0-liter V-8 with 400 hp. The previous engine pumped out 350 hp. To the relief of traditionalists, an optional hood scoop has been added, along with dual exhaust.
Duane Earl, sales manager at Sawyers Pontiac in East Lansing, Mich., says early criticisms of the GTOs were unfounded.
"There was a lot of bad press about it not looking like the old GTOs of the 1960s and '70s, but that's not what it was supposed to be about," says Earl, who sold 22 GTOs last year and has one order for the new model. "I think now that it is out there and people know what it's about, it will be welcomed."
Next-generation GTO
GM has hinted that the next-generation GTO, scheduled to appear on the Zeta rear-drive architecture for the 2007 or 2008 model year, will be a large departure from the current model.
Pontiac hopes to position the GTO as its version of the Chevrolet Corvette - an aspirational vehicle that is the "soul of the brand," says Pontiac spokesman Jim Hopson.
11/23/04, 11:58 AM
#7
The GTO suffers from a lot of different issues. Amazingly bland looks, suprisingly slow for 350hp, and a price tag that way up there at about 33 large.
GM would have been better off to use some of the more aggressive styling seen on show car versions and stuck the Z06 mill in it the first year out. At 40 grand that is a more compelling deal to me than the 04 was at 33.
The LS2 coming in the 05 should go a long way toward "fixing" the Goat, but the hoodscoops are just a band-aid fix on the styling front. And, the car will get at least 1500 dollars pricier to boot.
I do not expect to see a GTO in production after the 05my. Just my two cents.
GM would have been better off to use some of the more aggressive styling seen on show car versions and stuck the Z06 mill in it the first year out. At 40 grand that is a more compelling deal to me than the 04 was at 33.
The LS2 coming in the 05 should go a long way toward "fixing" the Goat, but the hoodscoops are just a band-aid fix on the styling front. And, the car will get at least 1500 dollars pricier to boot.
I do not expect to see a GTO in production after the 05my. Just my two cents.
11/24/04, 07:51 PM
#9
Cobra Member
Join Date: March 14, 2004
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by PearBear@November 22, 2004, 10:23 PM
Raise your hand if you saw it coming
Raise your hand if you saw it coming
I haven't bothered to see how Chevy's SSR is selling, and I really don't care.
GM claims its quality control problems are behind them and I hope they're right. Now all they've got to do is figure out how to build a decent car.
11/26/04, 03:36 AM
#12
Shelby GT350 Member
Join Date: January 30, 2004
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 2,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lutz is working hard to save his butt. That's why he keeps pushing that the Solstice is coming out. They are also working on a "non-Holden" version of the GTO for 06 or 07, I can't remember which year. It's a great idea on their parts but all their cars at GM seem overpriced, no matter which vette engine they put in them.
11/26/04, 08:20 AM
#13
Mach 1 Member
Thread Starter
Originally posted by FrankBullitt05@November 25, 2004, 11:36 PM
Every dealer in the area I've seen has two SSRs sitting on the lot...some for as much as a month...
Only 9500? Wow...
Every dealer in the area I've seen has two SSRs sitting on the lot...some for as much as a month...
Only 9500? Wow...
11/26/04, 08:16 PM
#15
Member
Join Date: April 12, 2004
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Folks. Wish you to know that I love my 5.0 Mustang and am truly impressed with the exterior styling of the 2005 Mustang. Having said that and examined the 2005 Mustang and other vehicles at our local auto show a few weeks ago...I went out and bought a 2004 6spd GTO. I really do believe it combines the best elements of luxury high performance driving as is usually considered part/parcel of European sport sedans. Mustang is essentially a muscle car, GTO is a bit more vehicle and a bit less, depends on ones criteria. I admire both vehicles, only the GTO fits my current and intended driving requirements. I do find it hard to believe that anyone who appreciates high performance, V8 powered vehicles would dislike the GTO. I grew up with the Camaro/Firebird/Mustang/Charger/etc. competition but it never was venomous as it is now. Perhaps folks today(not just kids) are ruder than I experienced.-The glories of the Internet?
Interestingly enough, on 2004 GTO websites, there is amazement at the amount of criticism voiced against the 2004 GTO, both by old 60s/70s GTO owners and particularly Mustang owners. Old goat folks I understand as not many people can make the change from their old days/ways to new. But the vehemence with which Mustang folk have assailed the new GTO is surprising. It really draws no credit upon Mustang owners. Immature people are always present, especially on the Internet. But I am surprised any adult would call another car a POS. As a 5.0 owner, the 4.6 Modular years would probably be considered a disaster if it were not for the supercharged Cobra and Mach I. Having written that and having kept my Mustang for 14 years w/o replacement due to displeasure with the succeeding bodystyles, I would never call someone's 4.6L a POS.
My GTO was a bargain at $26800. ZR rated tires and oil changes for life from the local dealer. I would like to thank the poor press the vehicle has received and the greedy dealers who marked up as much as $10000 over MSRP for being instrumental in allowing me to purchase this vehicle at reduced cost thanks to excessive endofyear inventory. Otherwise pricing would have been around $33000+.
I would still have been happy with a 2005 Mustang GT if I did not purchase the GTO. As I would have been pleased to continue with my 1991 5.0 if the 2005 Mustang were a Probe type FWD/V6 vehicle or a continuation of 2004.
Again, I do not understand all of the hate. I will try to be at Morosso at WPB on Dec. 4th 2004 for the Run What You Brung event. Hope some of you(us) Mustang folk will be there, but please leave the GTO hating at home.
For Jsaylor: I appreciated your posts on Newagegto.com It is a pity some of the 04 GTO folks got out of hand and you no longer post there. I enjoyed the compare/contrast with the new Mustang. For the record, a pure stock GTO M6 achieve 13:25 at 104.61mph. See at LS1gto.com under dragtimes. Perhaps not typical, but there it is. I have to relearn launching technique with this vehicle/drivetrain/suspension.. it is considerably different compared to my 5.0.
Pure stock GTO is now down to 13.10 at 106 mph on factory issue radials. added 11/27/04 12:44 EST
Interestingly enough, on 2004 GTO websites, there is amazement at the amount of criticism voiced against the 2004 GTO, both by old 60s/70s GTO owners and particularly Mustang owners. Old goat folks I understand as not many people can make the change from their old days/ways to new. But the vehemence with which Mustang folk have assailed the new GTO is surprising. It really draws no credit upon Mustang owners. Immature people are always present, especially on the Internet. But I am surprised any adult would call another car a POS. As a 5.0 owner, the 4.6 Modular years would probably be considered a disaster if it were not for the supercharged Cobra and Mach I. Having written that and having kept my Mustang for 14 years w/o replacement due to displeasure with the succeeding bodystyles, I would never call someone's 4.6L a POS.
My GTO was a bargain at $26800. ZR rated tires and oil changes for life from the local dealer. I would like to thank the poor press the vehicle has received and the greedy dealers who marked up as much as $10000 over MSRP for being instrumental in allowing me to purchase this vehicle at reduced cost thanks to excessive endofyear inventory. Otherwise pricing would have been around $33000+.
I would still have been happy with a 2005 Mustang GT if I did not purchase the GTO. As I would have been pleased to continue with my 1991 5.0 if the 2005 Mustang were a Probe type FWD/V6 vehicle or a continuation of 2004.
Again, I do not understand all of the hate. I will try to be at Morosso at WPB on Dec. 4th 2004 for the Run What You Brung event. Hope some of you(us) Mustang folk will be there, but please leave the GTO hating at home.
For Jsaylor: I appreciated your posts on Newagegto.com It is a pity some of the 04 GTO folks got out of hand and you no longer post there. I enjoyed the compare/contrast with the new Mustang. For the record, a pure stock GTO M6 achieve 13:25 at 104.61mph. See at LS1gto.com under dragtimes. Perhaps not typical, but there it is. I have to relearn launching technique with this vehicle/drivetrain/suspension.. it is considerably different compared to my 5.0.
Pure stock GTO is now down to 13.10 at 106 mph on factory issue radials. added 11/27/04 12:44 EST
11/27/04, 02:32 AM
#16
Shelby GT350 Member
Join Date: January 30, 2004
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 2,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not that I hate the GTO, it's just the name doesn't seem to match the car and I (my opinion) believe they could have done a better job with the body style. As for the 4.6 Mod's, I believe the 265hp from the 99-04's is impressive, what was the hp for the 5.0's? I don't know what the 5.0 had in stock hp or the 1/4 mile times for each. Mine came with 215hp stock (I've done some things so it's more now) and it gets alot of heat but I still like it, just like you do with your GTO. Ignore the haters and enjoy your car. I like the speed your car puts out and the interior but the price from GM was too much, glad you got a discount.
11/27/04, 06:52 AM
#17
Member
Join Date: April 12, 2004
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The GTO's bodystyle is very much a subjective area. I have owned scooped,striped and winged vehicles: 1970 and 1980 Trans Ams respectively(the latter orange in color) and a 1985 Oldsmobile 442. (I bought the Olds new as I thought the 5.0 Mustang would never amount to anything. Imagine that! The 302CID Ford was always considerd too small an engine for performance, 351W/C being the preferred motor.) My 1991 Mustang is a sedate coupe(notchback)which still uses factory paint scheme and wheels. Appears as a V6 head on or from astern. I very much prefer sleepers over loud cars. The reverse seems to be popular nowadays.
I think Ford hit the right retro look on the 05 Mustang. But other attempts have not really worked in my opinion: PT cruiser, SSR, there may be others. No retro styling cues on the 2004 GTO is the old Goat owners main complaint. Actually it does have them but the homage is very subtle as with the remainder of the vehicle.
1987-1991 Mustangs were factory rated to 225HP(bid deal!). Stock 5spd ran the 1/4 mile anywhere from 14.10 to 14.40. Tony Defoe from one of the mags ran 13.90 stock and worked his way down further with basic tuning we would normally do in our garage or on a strip outing.
The reputation of the 5.0 was made thanks to:
1.Light vehicle
2.Sturdy powerplant(forged pistions for nitrous or boosted applications)
3.Factory performance program. SVO's catalog had the appropriate power packages and components to reach certain horsepower levels. No more guess work as to what worked with what.
4.Engine really came alive once modded.
I have learned the 4.6L Modular was designed for FWD use. Very little High Performance heritage. In my opinion, the Mach I engine is a miracle. A testament to analysis of strong points and developing those. I understand the supercharged Cobra being as quick as it is.-Top notch internals, essentially handbuilt, blueprinted, supercharged,etc.
Re GTO. Original price was too much. Discount and perks clinched the deal.
I think Ford hit the right retro look on the 05 Mustang. But other attempts have not really worked in my opinion: PT cruiser, SSR, there may be others. No retro styling cues on the 2004 GTO is the old Goat owners main complaint. Actually it does have them but the homage is very subtle as with the remainder of the vehicle.
1987-1991 Mustangs were factory rated to 225HP(bid deal!). Stock 5spd ran the 1/4 mile anywhere from 14.10 to 14.40. Tony Defoe from one of the mags ran 13.90 stock and worked his way down further with basic tuning we would normally do in our garage or on a strip outing.
The reputation of the 5.0 was made thanks to:
1.Light vehicle
2.Sturdy powerplant(forged pistions for nitrous or boosted applications)
3.Factory performance program. SVO's catalog had the appropriate power packages and components to reach certain horsepower levels. No more guess work as to what worked with what.
4.Engine really came alive once modded.
I have learned the 4.6L Modular was designed for FWD use. Very little High Performance heritage. In my opinion, the Mach I engine is a miracle. A testament to analysis of strong points and developing those. I understand the supercharged Cobra being as quick as it is.-Top notch internals, essentially handbuilt, blueprinted, supercharged,etc.
Re GTO. Original price was too much. Discount and perks clinched the deal.
11/27/04, 09:59 AM
#18
Bow Chica Bow Wow
TMS Staff
TMS Staff
I personally think the GTO is a decent car. I always liked the Monaro. My only complaint is the styling and the fact it's called a GTO. They really should have just named it something else or left it as Monaro. And if it had come over here with the Aussie GTO body i think it would have done alot better in regards to it's looks. Overall it's a good car. it has to be it was made in Australia and they do know what a good car is there. I think the GTO's biggest flaw wasn't the car it'self but the marketing team and Bob Lutz.
just my .02
just my .02
11/27/04, 11:48 AM
#19
Mach 1 Member
Thread Starter
Well price of the 05 moved right back up to 34K. We'll have to wait and see if they sell.
BTW: I wouldn't consider the PT cruiser a failure in anyway. I see them all over the place. Thunderbird would be a better example of a car that could have sold much better if not for dealer markups.
BTW: I wouldn't consider the PT cruiser a failure in anyway. I see them all over the place. Thunderbird would be a better example of a car that could have sold much better if not for dealer markups.
12/2/04, 07:17 AM
#20
Originally posted by Felix C.@November 27, 2004, 1:55 PM
The GTO's bodystyle is very much a subjective area. I have owned scooped,striped and winged vehicles: 1970 and 1980 Trans Ams respectively(the latter orange in color) and a 1985 Oldsmobile 442. (I bought the Olds new as I thought the 5.0 Mustang would never amount to anything. Imagine that! The 302CID Ford was always considerd too small an engine for performance, 351W/C being the preferred motor.) My 1991 Mustang is a sedate coupe(notchback)which still uses factory paint scheme and wheels. Appears as a V6 head on or from astern. I very much prefer sleepers over loud cars. The reverse seems to be popular nowadays.
I think Ford hit the right retro look on the 05 Mustang. But other attempts have not really worked in my opinion: PT cruiser, SSR, there may be others. No retro styling cues on the 2004 GTO is the old Goat owners main complaint. Actually it does have them but the homage is very subtle as with the remainder of the vehicle.
1987-1991 Mustangs were factory rated to 225HP(bid deal!). Stock 5spd ran the 1/4 mile anywhere from 14.10 to 14.40. Tony Defoe from one of the mags ran 13.90 stock and worked his way down further with basic tuning we would normally do in our garage or on a strip outing.
The reputation of the 5.0 was made thanks to:
1.Light vehicle
2.Sturdy powerplant(forged pistions for nitrous or boosted applications)
3.Factory performance program. SVO's catalog had the appropriate power packages and components to reach certain horsepower levels. No more guess work as to what worked with what.
4.Engine really came alive once modded.
I have learned the 4.6L Modular was designed for FWD use. Very little High Performance heritage. In my opinion, the Mach I engine is a miracle. A testament to analysis of strong points and developing those. I understand the supercharged Cobra being as quick as it is.-Top notch internals, essentially handbuilt, blueprinted, supercharged,etc.
Re GTO. Original price was too much. Discount and perks clinched the deal.
The GTO's bodystyle is very much a subjective area. I have owned scooped,striped and winged vehicles: 1970 and 1980 Trans Ams respectively(the latter orange in color) and a 1985 Oldsmobile 442. (I bought the Olds new as I thought the 5.0 Mustang would never amount to anything. Imagine that! The 302CID Ford was always considerd too small an engine for performance, 351W/C being the preferred motor.) My 1991 Mustang is a sedate coupe(notchback)which still uses factory paint scheme and wheels. Appears as a V6 head on or from astern. I very much prefer sleepers over loud cars. The reverse seems to be popular nowadays.
I think Ford hit the right retro look on the 05 Mustang. But other attempts have not really worked in my opinion: PT cruiser, SSR, there may be others. No retro styling cues on the 2004 GTO is the old Goat owners main complaint. Actually it does have them but the homage is very subtle as with the remainder of the vehicle.
1987-1991 Mustangs were factory rated to 225HP(bid deal!). Stock 5spd ran the 1/4 mile anywhere from 14.10 to 14.40. Tony Defoe from one of the mags ran 13.90 stock and worked his way down further with basic tuning we would normally do in our garage or on a strip outing.
The reputation of the 5.0 was made thanks to:
1.Light vehicle
2.Sturdy powerplant(forged pistions for nitrous or boosted applications)
3.Factory performance program. SVO's catalog had the appropriate power packages and components to reach certain horsepower levels. No more guess work as to what worked with what.
4.Engine really came alive once modded.
I have learned the 4.6L Modular was designed for FWD use. Very little High Performance heritage. In my opinion, the Mach I engine is a miracle. A testament to analysis of strong points and developing those. I understand the supercharged Cobra being as quick as it is.-Top notch internals, essentially handbuilt, blueprinted, supercharged,etc.
Re GTO. Original price was too much. Discount and perks clinched the deal.
As for GTO pricing I could not agree more, the intial msrp was just too much. A couple grand more than a loaded 05 GT I could see, but 33 was pushing it. This problem was only aggravated when dealers wanted at least that amount (and in many cases much more) for some time after launch. Instead of doing a bit of dealing and setting themselves up to sell more GTO's in the future, GM dealers screwed it up for themselves and GM by being stupid.
As for styling, yes it is subjective. However, the same could be said of the last generation of f-bodies and both of us know that styling is one of the reasons that car lost sales and died. 9,500 cars was a lot less than GM wanted, and needed, to sell. Styling is an issue in this IMO, and not because the car is not wearing a huge spoiler or scooped to death.
A car can be aggressive-looking (and beautiful) without being gaudy. Pontiac still seems to be learning this to these eyes. The GTO is not unattractive, but it does not look the part either. The BMW M3 is a good example of being aggressive-looking without being gaudy IMO. And in truth I would not call that car especially aggressive looking, though compared to the new GTO it is a land-bound F-14. The new Mustang GT is tasteful IMO, but looks much more aggresive than even the "scooped" 05 GTO.
As for performance, I think the problem is that for mid 30's people simply expected the car to be faster than it is. I actually do not believe this made as much of a difference in sales as the other problems I listed, but you certainly will not attract the speed-addicted folks that the 5.0 liter did with this car. WHat is the differnce. For the money the fox was a speed miracle as you had to drop waaaay more than it's asking price to go faster stock. And not only was it's price less than similarly "fast" cars, it was downright cheap if you wanted it to be. Neither of those statements can be applied to the GTO.
As I have said before I actually like the GTO and advised my brother to take a long look now that his Trans Am days are done. This only after pricing got more reasonable on 04's of course. But, while the car really has no major issues, the car has a sea of small problems GM needs to fix fast or they could earn a reputation to live down IMO.
And btw, while the mod motor does have some "compromises" in it's design for fwd use, it was always intended for both rwd and fwd. It is also worth mentioing IMO that while those compromises can be aggravating Ford did not compromise where it counts. The bottom end is a rock, and the engine can easily be much more impressive than the Mach-1 was in n/a trim.
Case in point, a move to the larger bore used in the 5.0L cammer with no other changes would easily take the short-deck, 3-valve mod-motor in the new GT to more than 350hp on 87 octane. (the larger bore seriously unshrouds the valves and makes huge airflow improvements) That is over 350hp from 302ci naturally aspirated on 87 octane in production trim. Keep in mind that I am only calculating hp at the same ratio (70hp per liter) the mod motor makes in the 05GT with no concessions to the huge improvement in airflow gained by the larger bore. Hp should actually top 350 by a good amount with the new-found flow, but I prefer to be conservative. GM's smallblock simply cannot do that without major mods, and possibly could not do it at all in a production-type tune....not on regular gas. Bump the compression up moving required octane to 92 and hp should easily near 400 from that 5.0L 3-valve V-8. The LS2 needs another liter to accomplish the same. And, that was 80,000 dollar, DOHC/5.0L V-8 BMW M5 territory not long ago too.
Why doesn't Ford increase bore-size now that cast-iron mod-motor production is ending? God only knows.