Dan

I don't think any of us are using Mobil 1 as of yet..... I would only use 5w20.

I guess I better keep my eyes open for it two because I'm going for an oil change in a month.

Rondosa

Mobil 1 does not make a 5W20. Esso is the parent company for Mobil 1 - don't believe me, check here for yourself:

Mobil 1

I'm getting ready to change my oil out to a full 100% DINO oil and I'll run that until about 10 000kms and then run a FULL synthetic. oil is a pretty controvertial thing and the methods and standards for synthetics aren't always the same. i have a huge article about Mobil 1 vs Castrol Syntec if anyone is interested.

I have been informed that Canadian Tire buys Esso's top two grades of Dino oil and repackages them as their house brand, but for cheaper then Esso sells them at. This is what I'm going to run I think - the problem is that their top Dino grade only comes in 5W30, whereas their second best Dino oil comes in 5W20. I'm going to have to decide quickly...I have their best stuff in the 5W30 at home waiting to go in...

When I move to synthetic, I'm probably going to be running Motul 8100 series oil, however, they also only have a 5W30 (8100 Eco-Energy 5W30). I've done my research and feel that this is the best kind of synthetic oil. If it makes you feel better, the Mustang race cars have Motul stickers on them .

I'm still fine tuning my decisions, but I think I'm going to end up going with 5W30 oils, both DINO and Synthetic. Afterall, I ended up running a 0W40 in my last car (Audi), which is different from factory spec, with excellent results.

Kris

RottenRonny

Thanks for the info.
If you look at mobil1's corporate amiercan site, they do list a 5-20 as an available product. However, as you mentioned, it is not available here. (yet)

Also, FYI, walmart tech 1000 full synthetic (I think, the name is from memory) is rebranded Quakerstate full synthetic, but again, only comes in 5w30 and 10w30. I've been running it in my pontiac for the last year, with excellent results.

For the mustang, just because I want to change my oil this weekend, I am just going to buy the MotorCraft premium 5-20, and order some cases amsoil 5w20 online, so I'll have that next time.

Rondosa

Sounds good - FYI I think Canadian Tire (at least in ontario) stock Amsoil...might want to ask your local store if they have or can get it for you. in my postal code, they even list it on canadiantire.ca

cheers!

legend05

GUys,
what is soooo special about this oil?
I'm using Quaker state gold synthetic.
Am i doing something wrong?

Dan

Yes.

Rondosa

I am really sorry that this is so long, but it's an interesting read.

Shows you that there really is a difference between brands...



Hi, I am trying to establish whether Castrol Syntec is an API Group III oil or a true synthetic Group IV/V.Many people nowadays are saying that the product is a hyper-processed mineral oil. Is this the case? Thank you and please answer the question as stated.


From Castrol PR Department:

Castrol Syntec is a 100% fully-synthetic motor oil.
Castrol SYNTEC is not made with petroleum base stock. Castrol does not publish any formulations or changes in formulations. Our additive systems and base oils are proprietary and chosen for performance and suitability first. Castrol uses only the highest quality materials, including synthetic base oils.

Synthetic motor oil starts with synthetic base oil. There are many different chemical processes available to make synthetic base oil due to advances in the technology of synthetics. These chemical processes are different than the simple refining techniques used to make conventional base oils.

For conventional base oils the process is simply a separation and subtraction process. Once the base oil is separated, the subtraction process cleans and removes impurities and undesirable compounds, such as wax and sulfur.

Synthetic processing uses select crude components that are chemically converted to create molecules that are different from the starting material. Synthetic processing rearranges, builds up and breaks apart molecules.

This chemical processing produces synthetic base oils that are engineered to provide consistent and predictable superior performance over conventional base oil counterparts. Synthetic base oils exhibit superior performance at both extreme hot and cold temperatures.
Synthetic base oils are then mixed with specialized additive systems that can be engineered to meet more demanding performance specifications than what is achievable from conventional motor oils. The combination of synthetic base oils and choice additive systems offers many benefits for your engine.
Thank you for contacting Castrol, The Technology Leader!

Subject: Castrol USA - Contact Us Form Data
------------------------------------------------------------------------



There are six categories of base oils. These categories define the type of base stock the oil is formulated from. The categories are as follows. Note that the base oil group category is followed by the manufacturing method (in bold print) and then a description of the oil characteristics for each category.


Group I - Solvent Freezing: Group 1 base oils are the least refined of all the groups. They are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little or no uniformity. While some automotive oils on the market use Group I stocks, they are generally used in less demanding applications.

Group II - Hydro processing and Refining: Group II base oils are common in mineral based motor oils currently available on the market. They have fair to good performance in lubricating properties such as volatility, oxidative stability and flash/fire points. They have only fair performance in areas such as pour point, cold crank viscosity and extreme pressure wear.

Group – III Hydro processing and Refining: Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of mineral oil refining of the base oil groups. Although they are not chemically engineered, they offer good performance in a wide range of attributes as well as good molecular uniformity and stability. They are commonly mixed with additives and marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic products. Group III base oils have become more common in America in the last decade.

Group IV -Chemical Reactions: Group IV base oils are chemically engineered synthetic base stocks. Polyalphaolefins (PAO's) are a common example of a synthetic base stock. Synthetics, when combined with additives, offer excellent performance over a wide range of lubricating properties. They have very stable chemical compositions and highly uniform molecular chains. Group IV base oils are becoming more common in synthetic and synthetic-blend products for automotive and industrial applications.

Group V - As Indicated: Group V base oils are used primarily in the creation of oil additives. Esters and polyolesters are both common Group V base oils used in the formulation of oil additives. Group V oils are generally not used as base oils themselves, but add beneficial properties to other base oils.

Group VI - A new base stock group to include polinternalolefins (PIOs). New base stock read across rules have also been developed, which allow Group VI base stocks to be interchanged with Group IV base stocks.


(Note that the additives referred to in the Group V description are not aftermarket type oil additives. The additives referred to are used in the chemical engineering and blending of motor oils and other lubricating oils by the specific oil company that produces the finished product.)


------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ok, boys and girls, time to start another lubrication thread. If you’re using Castrol Syntec or considering any synthetic oil for your motorcycle or car read on! Warning this may make your brain hurt...


First off, let me start by saying that I believe synthetic oils offer better performance than any conventional motorcycle oil. That an automobile synthetic is ok to use in motorcycles provided it is NON Energy Conserving (hereby referred to as non-EC). The EC compounds are the dreaded anti-friction modifiers that supposedly cause clutch slippage in wet trannies. I say supposedly cause I’ve never actually tried to use them and have heard anecdotal evidence that they do not cause clutch slip. I also believe that many motorcycle oil brands are small time producers that cannot be counted on to make a product as uniform as the big boy refiners can. In other words Mobil 1 is vastly superior to any moto-oil IMHO even the ones labeled synthetic and you shall soon see why...


Now a few years back Mobil dropped their 10W-40 synthetic which was a non-EC blend and a wintertime favorite of mine. Curiously enough at the same time they introduced their motorcycle oil lineup and surprise, it was available in 10W-40. Some marketing genius apparently figured out that there isn’t much of a need for non-EC car oils and they could charge $7.50/qt for motorcycle oil vs. the $4.50 they get labeling it as a car oil. This leaves 15W-50 Mobil 1 as the only non-EC synthetic in their car oil lineup. This is what I’ve used in thousands of miles on my bikes with no problems whatsoever, but I was still left high and dry when it came to running a winter oil.



Winter can see below freezing so you obviously need to run a lighter oil when it’s colder out. For this reason I chose to run Castrol Syntec 5W-50. I figured it’s a synthetic and has a light enough weight to run it in the colder temps.


Except it isn’t a synthetic! Yes that’s right, Castrol is charging you $4+/qt for regular dino-oil! I stumbled across this info whilst looking at the performance data. Strangely enough, the pour point of Syntec 5W-50 was higher than that of Mobil 1 15W-50! Pour point is the temperature that oil can still flow. The colder the better. Why then did a synthetic oil labeled as a 5W flow at only -15 degrees whilst the Mobil 1 which was a 15W flowed up to -55? This didn’t make any sense, the 15W oil is supposed to be heavier than the 5W and the numbers should be reversed!


Clearly something was up... more research into the issue.


All synthetic oils used in performance applications are based on two kinds of base-stock compounds. PAOs and Organic Esters. The organic esters are superior to a certain degree (they’re used in jet engines for their heat resistance) but the PAOs are more cost effective and offer superior detergent properties (keeping the engine clean) and tend to be the bulk of any synthetic oil including Mobil 1. Usually around 80% is a PAO and the rest are organic esters. In the synthetic oils that were pioneered in applications such as aviation and hi-performance this is what was used.


That said there’s a newer process of refining regular dino-oil that yields far better results than conventional refining. It’s called hydrocracking or iso-dewaxing. This process yields better quality motor oil from petroleum stock because of far more aggressive molecular manipulation which creates base oils that have some of the beneficial attributes of PAO and organic esters. While hydrocracked oils offer significant benefits over regular oil they do not outperform PAOs and Esters.


Castrol Syntec was once a PAO/Ester based oil similar to Mobil 1. Around December of 1997 it was quietly changed to a hydrocracked/ester blend. This means that the bulk of the oil is in fact regular dino oil that has been subject to the hydrocracking process with a small amount of organic ester thrown in for good measure.


Mobil took Castrol to task over this and filed a complaint with the BBB and FTC. During the long legal battle that followed Mobil claimed that Syntec was reformulated in 1997 without notice and that it could no longer call itself a synthetic. Castrol’s response was that the iso-dewaxing process offered a significant benefit and altered the molecular structure of the base stock significantly enough to qualify calling it a “synthetic�. They also asserted that since Mobil did derive their PAO/Ester basestocks from petroleum (duh) that any significant molecular manipulation of crude oil could be labeled as a synthetic product. Furthermore there is no real definition to explain what exactly a synthetic is since the SAE decided to drop the ball and avoid the issue altogether rather than issue a precise standard. Castrol used this defense to say that synthetic oils do not necessarily have to be composed of PAO/Ester compounds. That hydrocracking yields a sufficiently different product from regular oil to qualify as a synthetic.



Interestingly enough I got this quote from an article on the whole legal battle:


Joe Geagea, Chevron base oils products team manager, suggested, �Currently, there is no strict definition in North America of what constitutes synthetic, and we don’t expect this to change�


So, Mobil’s assertion that only PAO/Ester based lubes can be classified as synthetic was tossed out on the grounds that there really is no strict specification of what a synthetic is and that Castrol’s assertion that iso-dewaxing creates a product that is significantly altered from regular dino-oil qualifies it as a synthetic. In other words, using the term synthetic is technically as meaningless as the words “pure� and “organic� currently are. Since there’s no technical definition it is up to the manufacturer to decide what exactly it means.


Now this is all fine and dandy but that still doesn’t hide the fact that hydrocracked/iso-dewaxed oils do NOT outperform PAO/Esters. It also does not hide the fact that there are several iso-dewaxed oils on the market that are NOT labeled as synthetic nor are they sold for $4/qt as Syntec is. You can go out and buy some Penzoil Purebase for a lot less per quart than Syntec and get the same exact product. The only difference is that Syntec also has around 15% Esters added which do improve performance somewhat but in my mind that makes it a synthetic blend more so than anything else. While Syntec is a far better oil than the regular grades it is not as good as Mobil 1 nor does it have to cost $4 quart since there are plenty of iso-dewaxed oils on the market that sell for little more than regular dino-oil.


So what’s in Castrol semi-synthetic you ask? Good question. It’s a blend of their hydrocracked oil and regular dino-oil. In other words you’re just buying a better quality version of the SAME exact dino-oil when you get Syntec. Also note that Castrol is merely a marketer in the US and does NOT blend their own oils. It is done by third parties under license. In other words they have no direct control over what goes into the bottle other than doing spot checks on their blenders.


Mobil 1 was always more expensive because it costs significantly more to produce PAO/Ester stocks. Castrol entered the game with a similar product and then quietly changed it to a far cheaper process whilst keeping the pricing the same. They made no announcements of doing so despite the fact that they no longer had to charge $4/qt since iso-dewaxed oils are far cheaper to produce. It took Mobil’s independent testing whilst checking up on their competitors to bring this change to light.


Thanks to this precedent set by Castrol one can now successfully call all iso-dewaxed dino-oil Synthetic. This is why you’ve seen scads of synthetic oils popping up left and right not just in auto parts stores but in motorcycle dealer’s shelves. One has to wonder just how many of these “synthetics� are in fact overpriced dino-oil that has been subject to the iso-dewaxing process. We all know that motorcycle oil manufacturers aren’t full of marketing BS, right? Furthermore, since Mobil’s testing uncovered this unannounced change in Castrol’s product line what’s to keep anyone from selling relabeled dino-oil as synthetic? You go strictly on the manufacturer’s word.


Even more interesting is that DESPITE the fact that Castrol made repeated claims that iso-dewaxing process qualifies as synthetic they’re now currently stating that it is still a PAO/Ester blend. During the legal wrangling they never denied their oil was just an iso-dewaxed dino product, in fact they went to great lengths to call such a formulation a true synthetic. Either their tech reps are outright lying to cover up this whole fiasco now that it’s all behind them or they are ill informed. Since their spec sheets still list Castrol Syntec as a PAO/Ester blend despite the fact that independent testing proved otherwise I am inclined to believe that oil companies have absolutely no problem giving totally false information about their products just to make a buck.


Imagine buying your heart medications and getting placebos instead because the manufacturer is too god damned cheap to put in the active ingredient...


So the next time you plunk down $5 or more for a quart of synthetic with fancy claims realize that if it isn’t a PAO/Ester blend chances are it is nothing more than ultra-refined dino-oil and that according to the FTC it is perfectly legal to do so. That there are companies out there such as Castrol selling oil for the same cost as more expensive to produce PAO/Ester blends despite the fact that they could do so for little more than the cost of regular oil. That despite what the spec sheet may say what goes into the bottle may be a totally different animal.


Interestingly enough Mobil has recently changed their Mobil 1 to a �Tri-Synthetic� formula. Does this mean they’ve added iso-dewaxed oil to the mix now that the FTC ruled it is ok to do so? I haven’t found any specs as to what the mysterious third base stock is. Previously it was purely PAO and Organic Esters.




Since this article was written it seems that Mobil has switched its formulation to include iso-dewaxed oil, hence the name change to “Tri-Synthetic� formula. Guess they had a little more conscience than Castrol.



Note: Synthetic processing uses select crude components that are chemically converted to create molecules that are different from the starting material. Synthetic processing rearranges, builds up and breaks apart molecules.

is consistent with

Group IV -Chemical Reactions: Group IV base oils are chemically engineered synthetic base stocks. Polyalphaolefins (PAO's) are a common example of a synthetic base stock. Synthetics, when combined with additives, offer excellent performance over a wide range of lubricating properties. They have very stable chemical compositions and highly uniform molecular chains. Group IV base oils are becoming more common in synthetic and synthetic-blend products for automotive and industrial applications.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Castrol's answer is a perfect match for how a Group III is made.

Synthetic processing uses select crude components that are chemically converted to create molecules that are different from the starting material. Synthetic processing rearranges, builds up and breaks apart molecules.


Group III bases start as 'select crude components' (IE pull a slice from the fractional distillation tower) that are hydrocracked and processed to break longer chains and assemble shorter hydrocarbon chains.
By comparison, Group IV base stocks - PAO - are made from Ethylene gas, which is a very short hydrocarbon chain. These short chains are combined to make the appropriate length molecule for the oil under construction. There's no cracking involved in PAO synthesis.

RottenRonny

Holy smokes. Thats a long, but good read.

I ended up buying the ford 5w20 this morning. Crappy tire only had the 5-30 and 10-30 in amsoil, so I abandoned that idea too. Well, atleast now I have bought myself some time to find something.

Rondosa

i found some quaker state dino oil this aft in a 5W20 but didn't want to chance it (haven't done my research on QS) so I went with the Motomaster (aka Esso) 5W30 that I had already purchased. i intended on doing the first change at 200kms and then the second at 1000kms, but that didn't quite work out so I did the 1st one today at 875kms...and HOLY SMOKES I couldn't believe how much metal was in the oil that came out. it was like chunks and pieces...maybe this is pretty common, but this is my first "FIRST OIL CHANGE" on a brand new vehicle. crazy...glad I didn't wait any longer...


kris

legend05

Girlfriend, not to scare you but metal putty on the magnetic drain plug is acceptable, but chunks...

not good.

Rondosa

ok maybe i mispoke. it wasn't exqctly chunks...it's hard to describe the size i guess....

regardless, the friend i had there with me when i changed the oil said it was normal (he had a mustang for 4 years and works at a Ford dealership) and the things I've been reading online about break-in make it sound pretty normal.

wel, i've been good to the car since I got it so I'll just hope nothing catastrphic goes wrong! :shock:

Boomer

Those are the useless chunks of engine..
its all good

Big D

lmao cnt we keep it to lower weight for cold weather and higher weight for hot weather...bada bing bada boom

I think wquaker sux ***** if udont me saying....we put 10W30 in our 289 and it soiunded like water dripping after 2 months when we were done driving....i keep telling my dad to use mobil 1 but nooo hes been usin QS for years! and I dont know any better.....

God i cant wait to get my muistang

wilsonchristian

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..This guy must think we Canucks are mental.

Crappy Tire though it may be, I can't stop bying crap there. I bought rubber Ford mats on my way back from picking up my car even, haha, at 8:59 PM.

I have seen 5-20 here and there. Only synthetic: Quaker State. Is the stock Oil mineral oil? I am on my first crankcase of oil (1200 km).

-C

mstang

Ford just released a parts number for bottled 5W20 Synthetic.
It is CXO 5W20 LFS12.
List is $10.30. Trade price is $8.50.

It is full synthetic sourced from Esso, who also produce MOBIL1.
They don't say it is the same as MOBIL1, but you can bet it is.

We (Whiteoak) will have it in stock on Monday.

Dan

That's good news

RottenRonny

That is good news. Now, hopefully the dealers on this side of the country decide to stock it.

TomServo92

That's incorrect. Check here:

http://www.mobil1.com/USA-English/MotorOil...il_1_5W-20.aspx

Rondosa

Correction, Mobil 1 does not make 5W20 in CANADA. at least not the last time I checked.

sorry.

TomServo92

Actually, they don't make ANY Mobil1 in Canada. It's all made either in the US or Singapore. Whether or not they SELL 5W20 in Canada, I wouldn't know.