ford4v429

posted this elsewhere, but thought I'd throw in here too...

'Jan 9 2006, 01:33 AM' post='10592'
Well,
I was hoping to POR-15 inside my rockers and doors tonight, but first gotta fix a few things...might want to look over your rear seam sealed areas- found a bunch of spots that were missed on my car, wouldnt doubt its typical. heres a bunch of pics- the stuff behind the rear wheel on drivers side is pretty bad, one spot behind shock mount on passenger side was missed too, found one spot behind passenger rear wheel where seam sealer appeared to be too thick, and shrunk/cracked at corner. Now I regret not doing this before driving it 300 miles- just couldnt wait though...
I'm sure the galvanizing didnt let any rust start yet, but still, theres dirt in places that cannot be cleaned- and that dirt has salt in it...will POR-15 as deep as possible in the gaps before adding some 3m 'fast and firm' seam sealer...
One thing that really worries me- in front of both rear tires, you'll see a 'flap' pinchweld- with a 'scoop' like hole at the top, about 1/4 inch wide, an inch long- that hole goes directly down into the rocker. Hate to sound too cynical, but my Mark VII had some odd 'drains' too- and when I cut the rockers out on it (originally was going to cut a quarter sized area out where paint was blistering- started cutting and entire panel was shot) found a 1/4 inch of mud/salt/road crap down in the lower pinch welds.

Any way, back to that area...at the bottom of same 'flap' the pinchweld has gaps too and no sealer- I could push a piece of mig wire loosly thru it and out the rocker drains farther forward. I dont know if I might 'prevent breathing' in the rocker, by sealing this 'flap', but I AM GOING TO SEAL THESE UP. The side/bottom drains are nice- at the pinch bottom/wide open, look fairly easy to flush out compared to some others Ive seen, but still the areas between drains have that little 'vee' where outer panel radiuses down to the pinch, and dirt always wedges into that gap. I am going to drill a couple holes under my sills to POUR some POR-15 down inside after taping up drains, then jack car front/rear to let it run along the 'vee' and fill that in to keep crap out of it. might be paranoid, but I tend to keep cars for decades, and hate rust.
Heres some pics of areas missed- first the drivers rear- swiss cheese here...passenger side was fine


heres the only spots missed on passenger shock mount area- drivers side was fine-


heres that 'flap' I was talking about- sealing(lack thereof) is identical both sides- the top hole goes right to the inacessible inside of rocker panel-


heres the passenger side- way my cameras made I could get 'in' further and you can see the pinchweld has zero sealant behind the 'flap', due to undercoat wand angle- already had a lot of 'sand' packed in mine on both friggin sides-


heres the seam sealer shrink crack on the passenger side- area is rear where bumper meets wheelwell. Sealer looks to be almost 1/4 inch thick...Ive seen it shrink/crack before when I used too much on my 65 when I had the body off the frame.


if you plan on keeping your car, I'd really consider taking a few hours to go over it underneath. I hate to say it, but in my opinion: I 100% honestly believe the 5-10 year rocker is a intentional design.
If you live up north, how many explorers,arostars,mark VIIs,tbirds have you seen from the 90's in perfect shape except for holes in the rockers- from inside out...nice paint right up to the point where the metal disappears...

Hey, if they lasted forever, why would ya ever replace it... just my 2 cents...

in any event, my car was definitely not sealed properly on the drivers side...sealant behind wheels is not even up to the gaps in places...somebody missed.

adrenalin

Thanks for that info. As soon as it warms up I will be looking at mine to see what was missed.

Galaxie

I'm definitely going to spend some time under the car in the spring, thanks for the heads-up

Your comment about rocker panels rings true, as my beater areostar has eaten them up over the years. I replaced one recently and made sure that it would not rust anytime soon.

ford4v429

on your aerostar- did it also rot from the inside out? My mark VII did and after fixing one, a couple months later the 'good' side let go too- once a paint blister appears, the whole panel is 'crunchy' if you press on it...I got pics of 2nd side of my Mark VII here somewhere...yuck.

Fastrack

I had a pontiac firefly (which was given to me and I rebuilt the engine on it...) and the rockers were completely rotted out as your describing.

How would you get the POR-15 inside the rockers anyway ?

Also I remember seeing the "spoon like bend hole" when washing my car, is the 3M seam sealer thin enough to fill those holes ? Also do you plan to paint it afterwards? How would you clean between the sheet metal so the 3M stuff has a nice surface to bond to?

Would a old tooth brush and some degreaser work?

Wow that's a lot of questions

Did you also paint/POR-15 your axle?

ford4v429

I'm thinking of drilling some holes under the door sill plate- snap in some plugs and put the sill back on, noone will ever know...I think three holes, diameter of smallest plugs I can find, then just squirt some POR in with a syringe, jack car from front, on same side(to make it run into pinchweld area) wait for it to run out rear drain, then reverse...will let ya know how/if it works out... one more thing I'm thinking of- the drains are quite 'generous' compared to others Ive had- thinking for the fronts about adding drains from 65 galaxie quarters- hard to describe, but they have a kinda reverse scoop to help keep stuff from splashing up inside...think I could just 'glue' them in with silicone- we'll see...

mine was pretty clean(300 miles on the car only out in rain once) so it flushed out at the carwash easy...I just used 409 to clean up everything, have never waxed car yet, so no silicones on it yet to worry about adhesion troubles... As far as the holes- I dont know what ford would say...might be intentional vent of sorts, might void rust warrantys(not even sure what it has regarding that) but hey- we have roadsalt here and I dont want that inside mine...409, popsicle stick/cloth can get pretty clean- at least at the top for sealing...I just filled with seam sealer- not too thick(maybe 1/8") down inside, let sit overnight and filled again over that- too thick it can shrink up and crack. I overcoated that with the roll on bedliner.
Theres also a pretty large drain inside rear of rocker at base of quarter- think I might need to pull rocker covers off before I think about plugging that one- just need to see how many drain holes there are around and be certain not to close off any at lowest points Halfway thinking of putting a breather hole inside car from rocker(under carpet) and using galaxie plugs everywhere under the rocker- the shape of them should pull a little vacuum and maybe let it suck fresh air from inside the car to breathe...dont know enough about how its set up yet though...perhaps just leaving plugs out under doorsills would allow enough relatively dry air to enter...I just dont want any dirt to get inside as thats what rotted out my Mark VII- moist dirt/salt laying in the pinchweld...I will say one thing, I can see why the factory wouldnt want to seal everything- its very time consuming.

no but I wish I woulda before I drove it...its gonna take some time to clean it up, might be easier to drop it out of the car...driveshaft/carrier bearing is just as bad. I'd like to seal EVERYTHING, but am already going thru withdrawl for not being able to drive it the last few days- till the urge gets to be too much, I'll keep plugging away at it.

ford4v429

Found some other tidbits tonight-

Good thing:
the front fenderwells come out in about 1 minute with a phillips screwdriver- pins and screws into plastic only, so no damaging anything pulling them out...neat. pop about (8) 1/4 turn camloc plastic pegs and I think three screws in front bumber and it comes out in 2 pcs very easily...'spring cleaning' never been easier

bad things-
1) the fender/bumper attachment flange had a LOT of dirt piled up on it- a whole lot considering the car has 300 miles on it, was driven ONCE in the rain, and washed twice with hose at home, once at carwash...guarantee winter cars will have 1/4 inch of salt-dirt piled there by spring...but if ya know about it, its easy to get out will put up some pics later.

2) theres a foam filler for doorjamb/fender area- its double sided foam, with hard plastic center- my cars been inthe garage for almost a week and as soon as touched this thing, water ran out of it- pulled Both out and both had two similar things: halfway up on outer edge, there is a tear in the foam from where it hits fender pretty hard. both had water leaking out at bottom where a small hole also was. I *think* the outer edge hole let water run down between foam and plastic center, and it seeps out from the bottom where it also presses tight against fender and had small tear at.
I'm going to cut a strip out of the forward side all the way to the bottom, so any water can get out rather than holding wet foam for years against the sheetmetal fender and cowl base. If that dont work, I'll pull the fenders, paint black and leave these out.

the inner fenderwell construction is nice as you can rinse the fender lip clean easily, the bad thing is it all runs to the bumper flange and collects there. My passenger side is out of line about 1/8" so when I pull the bolts to clean plate, will readjust that too- trying to think of some way to eliminate the 'flat' flange...maybe just 'glue' the bolt bracket to the fender with seam sealer, and after it dries, overcoat thick and taper off so water will not lay there on it...I dunno yet...might just take a minute to pull the fenderwell and flush once in a while...

lodom

So much for Ford's sound proofing ideas. As you said, wet foam is not good. I've seen a car Zbared (spelling) before. It isn't done around here, since we don't have bad winters, but they spray it in all the hard to reach areas like quarter panels after drilling pilot holes. I don't know if it is any good or not.

Thanks for the detailed pics. They do a great job in showing potential problem areas.

ford4v429

couple note:

1) roll on bedliner can actually lift POR-15? I wouldnt have believed it...

2) roll on bedliner can be caked on very thick- like seam sealer, dries nice, kinda rubbery. still suggest seamsealer first as it cannot be peeled off- bedliner if thick can be scraped off seam sealer takes a lot more work- should be better as 'adhesive' between any seams. thick bedliner brushed into corners is easy way to build up angle for runoff...behind drivers wheel on my car had a scoop of factory sealer that looked like it would collect dirt, just brushed a blob of bedliner over it(the stuff is like jello in the can) and it dried overnight...pretty neat stuff.

ford4v429

just a few more pics...
1) dirt laying on front fender lip(remember car has 300 miles on it)
2) before/sfter sealing flap in rear wheelwell
3) hard to see but water drops inside fender...car was in dry garage for almost a week, everything else bone dry.
4) the foam pc that had water inside...both sides had identical holes- one halfway up on outside (assume water got in thru there), and small hole at bottom where water drips out. both holes appear to be 'pressure cuts' where it fit REAL tight against sheetmetal.

ford4v429

Found another little tidbit tonight...pulled rocker/fender to undercoat, and noticed sealer at base of cowl to fender was loose- figured from pulling fender, right...so cut/pulled a few inches off to redo, and noticed slight corrosion started on the galvanizing already UNDER the sealer...ya know how galvanized gets that whitish coating- a tiny orange spot up top that looked like a speck of rust too... anyways, I picked around found one other area that didnt seem too tight, cut it too, but it looked OK...
I coated everything, and also the bottom/insides of fender, then after putting back on, coated HEAVILY over the bumper flange/fender joint that had collected so much dirt before, and bottom bolts that are hidden by rocker...tomorrow time to look at getting paint in the rocker...forgot to mention- used syringe/tubing to inject por15 inside all the frame box pinchwelds and let paint run along 'vee' of pinchwelds, and seep thru tiny gaps along bottoms, run out drains- so at least bottom pinch areas are sealed up- inside and out...covered front gaps/top gaps, left bottom drains open...front behind headlight looks to be biggest air inlet to upper box- but worried about road saltspray getting blown in- so made a little plastic diverter and 'glued' on with seam sealer...still should breathe OK, but road spray wont get blown directly inside now.
Having a hard time seeing outside/top of shocktower(whatever they call this now) might pop strut down tomorrow so I can see if anymore sealing needs done up there...bad area as gaps at bottom are hit with crap off tires, yet you cant see in there without a mirror...

Mustangdans

Ford4v429,
Your Mustang is going to last a long time, thanks to you a lot of people are getting an education on protecting their cars.
Thanks for sharing
How many miles do you have on it now?
Dan

ford4v429

still only 300- and going thru withdrawl...

Galaxie

Yes, the areostar did rot from the inside out, the drainage in those panels was non existent and they were not treated at all from the factory. Since then I have sprayed them with rust check spray and added drain holes in the panels. Before welding the panels on, I applied a coat of paint to the inside on areas that would not be affected by the heat from welding.

On the panels where you are putting the POR 15, it sounds like a great idea, especially if it was thinned out enough to completely fill any pinch welds. I was always thinking of doing something like that with an epoxy primer.

Thanks for sharing all the information with us

adrenalin

dang, never thought I would see someone pull a fender just to undercoat but nice to see you did. Good job at finding all of these little things. I'll definately be tearing my car apart in the spring.

ford4v429

Hmm...same spot at bottom of rt cowl looks almost identical to left side...looks like corrosion(powdery white...) this side I looke a bit closer at, and it kinda looks like the corner moves-you can push it in and it goes in maybe 1/64 or so- but it flexes quite easy- a few pounds is all wonder if thats springing out a little causing sealer to lift? its still galvanized, so its not like it would have rusted right away, but still odd.

Looked over the rocker areas tonight for a while- the drains on these look pretty good- only place I saw any crud splashed up in was front drain on both sides, and it wasnt bad...there are enough drains spaced often enough to stick some tubing up in to dribble some por15 into the bottoms pretty easily. One other thing noticed- the rear of the rocker covers on both sides had an awful lot of dirt/stones right at the rear corners- thinking about taking a burr and trimming the very close fitting gap there out to maybe 1/4 inch, so chunks might be able to get out...the things plastic, so its not a big deal, but if dirt packs up enough to get against sheetmetal it might get to be a bad thing...the bottom pegs are in slots that are way too long- expect thats how all the stuff got inside(mudflaps should end this)

Fastrack

All I gotta say is wow, I'm in awe. I plan to keep my car forever. But it's also not being driven in the winter.

I'm not planning to take panels off like you did though. I will take your other suggestions and look for missing body sealer.

I guess without having my car and looking at it, it's kind of hard to tell from your pictures what I'm seeing, but keep them coming! This is a great source of info!

Sonic05

I think getting a car sealed is more important now than ever before. They are using CHEAP steel, and I have seen many, many 2000+ model year cars and trucks rusting out like crazy. GM trucks are known for this, but rust warrantee is for "rust through" only. I just saw a 2003 Ford Explorer rusting away at the hood hinges.

That's why my baby will never see road salt, and I make sure all drains and channels are clean.

ford4v429

well, I dunno about cheep steel...from what Ive seen it appears to all be galvanized and dipped, and gotta say I was suprised as to how heavy the rockers look...dont thnk it would show any hint of rust for at least 4-5 years even if neglected...If I had to make a prediction tough, the very first areas on a new mustang to rust will be:

1) the front fender/bumper joint...its a tight bend, the reinforcement plate is like a 'dirt dam' and from the amount of crap that was in mine already, I bet ANY mustang driven in rain/snow will have a big deposit of road grime here...
would hate to see a pic in the spring of a winter car after popping front fenderwell- I'd bet 1/4-1/2 inch of mud there...I dont think without pulling airbox or front fenderwell liner there would be any other way to clean this out. pinchweld behind headlamp is a likely rust spot too...I'd bet first outerbody rot will be a crack/rust at the fender junction- after 4-5 years.

2) door bottoms might be an issue too- my passenger door has a litle 'hole' at the front bottom corner of doorskin crimp- surely water got into the crimp. hopefully por-15 will soak up any and prevent any damage- still wish I woulda looked it over before driving...still would expect 4-5 yrs before underside of door crimp would start to blister...

3) first chassis/hidden areas I would guess to be the above pictured seam corrosion under fender at cowl base- galvanized only lasts so long...the foam fender filler is likely to start on the fender too. The bottom of the inner rocker flap in front of rear tires pictured above I would expect to see rust staining within a couple years...stone chips in the paint only coating, combined with the hole funneling dirt into the gaping pinchweld looks like 'meant to rust' to me...

if ya want to see some cheep steel, take a look here:
http://www.hometown.aol.com/ford4v429/gal1.html

see why I'm so paranoid about rust...dont ever want to get into a mess like that again...

ford4v429

quick update- got back together yesterday, now she's got 400 miles on the clock...man I love driving this car!!!!!

will try and get my doors done in a couple days when its supposed to snow again...

got a lotta rubber in second, chirped third tonight...love them onramps what a car.