Pro's and Con's of a Aluminum drive shaft?
3/11/10, 10:55 PM
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Pro's and Con's of a Aluminum drive shaft?
What are the Pro's and Con's of a Aluminum drive shaft?
Also why is that every time someone puts on a aluminum drive shaft they install a safety loop are the aluminum shafts not as strong? l am looking at one just because l could get it for really cheap it's never been installed. It's a heavy duty aluminum drive shaft for a 5 speed 2006 l have a 05.
Also why is that every time someone puts on a aluminum drive shaft they install a safety loop are the aluminum shafts not as strong? l am looking at one just because l could get it for really cheap it's never been installed. It's a heavy duty aluminum drive shaft for a 5 speed 2006 l have a 05.
3/12/10, 06:59 AM
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Pro's:
- car will feel like you've drop 200lbs off of her due to less rotating mass
- you'll gain around 2 tenths in the Qtr
- technically if you can keep your foot out of it you should get better mpg
- strong piece - the one I have is suppose to handle over 700 whp
Con's:
- some people have vibration issues
- cost for some people is not worth the gain
DS safety loop: Most people install them because you are already under the car and already have the DS out. If you're running DR's the loop is required.
- car will feel like you've drop 200lbs off of her due to less rotating mass
- you'll gain around 2 tenths in the Qtr
- technically if you can keep your foot out of it you should get better mpg
- strong piece - the one I have is suppose to handle over 700 whp
Con's:
- some people have vibration issues
- cost for some people is not worth the gain
DS safety loop: Most people install them because you are already under the car and already have the DS out. If you're running DR's the loop is required.
3/12/10, 08:49 AM
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Thanks 69Mach1-409 It's a spyder shaft have you heard of them? It's rated for 500+ whp. http://www.leonardracing.com/drive01.php
Last edited by The Ziggys; 3/12/10 at 08:59 AM.
3/12/10, 08:59 AM
#4
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I have a Spydershaft on my 06 GT convertible with manual trans & 472 rwhp. It's been great. No vibration issues for me. I have heard that if you have vibration problems it's usually with the auto trans cars.
3/12/10, 09:01 AM
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Yup, I believe it's a modified Ranger DS. I don't know much about them, but there have been a ton of threads on the various forums about them.
I have a 1pc Alum Coast HD DS on mine. Picked it up from Tillman's about a year ago. A buddy and I installed it and I've had zero issues sense.
I have a 1pc Alum Coast HD DS on mine. Picked it up from Tillman's about a year ago. A buddy and I installed it and I've had zero issues sense.
3/12/10, 11:23 AM
#6
Mach 1 Member
A better option is the Shaftmasters direct bolt in DS. More $$ than a Spydershaft but comes with a money back guaranty and no issues with vibration like a cut down Ranger (Spydershaft) shaft.
I'm using an older model Shaftmasters DS with the adapter and have never had any vibration.
I'm using an older model Shaftmasters DS with the adapter and have never had any vibration.
3/12/10, 03:20 PM
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Actually that's a misnomer. These are posts I saved from a Ford engineer on another forum:
s197_guy
Clunk is driven by total driveline lash, dominated by the gear sets and clutch tuning/capability. The 3.73 amplifies this a bit compared to the 3.31 and 3.55 axles. The 2-piece driveshaft is not the cause of the clunk noise. The Bullitt will have higher levels of clunk compared to the base GT. The base GT throttle response is a bit softer than the Bullitt's. The increased throttle response makes the clunk a bit easier to get. It is a trade-off - improved performance feel vs clunk.
s197_guy
The post mentions high speed and 160mph - The Mustang (as it leaves AAI) is speed limited well below that for a reason. Like I said before, I do not know specifics about the dynotech piece, what it does or does not do. I do know about the 2-piece in the factory car. It is a fairly robust piece. Vibration is not an issue unless the centerbearing shims are not installed properly, the shaft has a balance issue or the pinion angle is off. These would be quality issues (that I'm not aware of having in production), not design. The 2-pc has no roll in whether or not you have a random vibration. U-joint angles, run-out (flange or shaft), balance and system modal (resonance) response govern vibration.
****************************
s197_guy 2 piece drive shaft
The 2-piece driveshaft is required to meet internal engineering requirements for safe operation at max vehicle speed. Basically, it is designed to provide a driveline system resonance well above what the speed limiter will allow you to operate at. If you put your driveline into resonance, bad things may happen! I've seen what it does to a car and it isn't pretty.
The driveshaft CV joints are required components on this type of driveshaft when combined with a live axle. If the rear suspension were IRS, simple flex couplings would be used (look at the new Camaro, Challenger, etc...) and would make for a lighter driveshaft.
The driveshaft also has an internal torsional damper (ITD) which is soley there to attenuate axle whine. If package allowed, the ITD would be mounted on the exterior of the driveshaft as a much lighter ring design. Since the equivalent inertia is required out of the smaller diameter part when installed inside the driveshaft, the mass has to increase. So, you get a heavier ITD vs a lightweight ETD.
A single piece steel or aluminum 1-piece would have to be larger in diameter than the current package allows. Basically, you would have contact with the fuel tank at full rear suspension jounce. 1-piece carbon fiber was explored at one time...
Hope this helps.
I would not assume an aftermarket piece "solves" a problem. Yes, you can stuff a massive driveshaft into the tunnel but it will not meet standard vehicle engineering requirements. Our requirements take many factors into account, with the biggest one being your personal safety under a wide variety of operating conditions. Our parts are engineered to work in one big system. Aftermarket parts are generally not engineered. By this, I mean that they are designed to fit properly (usually) and improve one or two attributes specific to your application.
For example, if you want a lighter weight driveshaft that gives you less rotating inertia, you can buy this aluminum 1-pc driveshaft. But, that's all you get - lighter weight. Not proven durability, safety (how does the driveshaft react in a rear impact?, clearance to other parts like the fuel tank?), NVH, ride (driveshaft plunge force actually affects your ride quality), etc...
But that's the great part about it being your car. You get to decide what you want your Mustang to be. Just be cautious and think about how these parts may affect the rest of your driving experience, safety and wallet if it breaks or breaks something else in the car.
I've been in your shoes (which is why I became an engineer and worked my way onto the Mustang team!) and know exactly where you are coming from, though. I don't know specifics about the d/s you are referring to but I'm just giving you some things to think about and consider.
Thanks for buying a Bullitt!
s197_guy
Clunk is driven by total driveline lash, dominated by the gear sets and clutch tuning/capability. The 3.73 amplifies this a bit compared to the 3.31 and 3.55 axles. The 2-piece driveshaft is not the cause of the clunk noise. The Bullitt will have higher levels of clunk compared to the base GT. The base GT throttle response is a bit softer than the Bullitt's. The increased throttle response makes the clunk a bit easier to get. It is a trade-off - improved performance feel vs clunk.
s197_guy
The post mentions high speed and 160mph - The Mustang (as it leaves AAI) is speed limited well below that for a reason. Like I said before, I do not know specifics about the dynotech piece, what it does or does not do. I do know about the 2-piece in the factory car. It is a fairly robust piece. Vibration is not an issue unless the centerbearing shims are not installed properly, the shaft has a balance issue or the pinion angle is off. These would be quality issues (that I'm not aware of having in production), not design. The 2-pc has no roll in whether or not you have a random vibration. U-joint angles, run-out (flange or shaft), balance and system modal (resonance) response govern vibration.
****************************
s197_guy 2 piece drive shaft
The 2-piece driveshaft is required to meet internal engineering requirements for safe operation at max vehicle speed. Basically, it is designed to provide a driveline system resonance well above what the speed limiter will allow you to operate at. If you put your driveline into resonance, bad things may happen! I've seen what it does to a car and it isn't pretty.
The driveshaft CV joints are required components on this type of driveshaft when combined with a live axle. If the rear suspension were IRS, simple flex couplings would be used (look at the new Camaro, Challenger, etc...) and would make for a lighter driveshaft.
The driveshaft also has an internal torsional damper (ITD) which is soley there to attenuate axle whine. If package allowed, the ITD would be mounted on the exterior of the driveshaft as a much lighter ring design. Since the equivalent inertia is required out of the smaller diameter part when installed inside the driveshaft, the mass has to increase. So, you get a heavier ITD vs a lightweight ETD.
A single piece steel or aluminum 1-piece would have to be larger in diameter than the current package allows. Basically, you would have contact with the fuel tank at full rear suspension jounce. 1-piece carbon fiber was explored at one time...
Hope this helps.
I would not assume an aftermarket piece "solves" a problem. Yes, you can stuff a massive driveshaft into the tunnel but it will not meet standard vehicle engineering requirements. Our requirements take many factors into account, with the biggest one being your personal safety under a wide variety of operating conditions. Our parts are engineered to work in one big system. Aftermarket parts are generally not engineered. By this, I mean that they are designed to fit properly (usually) and improve one or two attributes specific to your application.
For example, if you want a lighter weight driveshaft that gives you less rotating inertia, you can buy this aluminum 1-pc driveshaft. But, that's all you get - lighter weight. Not proven durability, safety (how does the driveshaft react in a rear impact?, clearance to other parts like the fuel tank?), NVH, ride (driveshaft plunge force actually affects your ride quality), etc...
But that's the great part about it being your car. You get to decide what you want your Mustang to be. Just be cautious and think about how these parts may affect the rest of your driving experience, safety and wallet if it breaks or breaks something else in the car.
I've been in your shoes (which is why I became an engineer and worked my way onto the Mustang team!) and know exactly where you are coming from, though. I don't know specifics about the d/s you are referring to but I'm just giving you some things to think about and consider.
Thanks for buying a Bullitt!
3/12/10, 09:59 PM
#9
Team Mustang Source
Pro's:
- car will feel like you've drop 200lbs off of her due to less rotating mass
- you'll gain around 2 tenths in the Qtr
- technically if you can keep your foot out of it you should get better mpg
- strong piece - the one I have is suppose to handle over 700 whp
Con's:
- some people have vibration issues
- cost for some people is not worth the gain
DS safety loop: Most people install them because you are already under the car and already have the DS out. If you're running DR's the loop is required.
- car will feel like you've drop 200lbs off of her due to less rotating mass
- you'll gain around 2 tenths in the Qtr
- technically if you can keep your foot out of it you should get better mpg
- strong piece - the one I have is suppose to handle over 700 whp
Con's:
- some people have vibration issues
- cost for some people is not worth the gain
DS safety loop: Most people install them because you are already under the car and already have the DS out. If you're running DR's the loop is required.
This pretty much sums up my feelings on the 1 piece aluminum driveshaft.
3/13/10, 10:51 PM
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What I can tell you from personal experience is....
Stock the car had 3.31s. After driving it about a year where I became familiar with the clank and how to avoid it most of the time with driving style. I switched to 3.73s and the Coast 4" shaft. I have been driving on that set up for about 5 months now. I am not making this up, that back lash clank is almost gone now. And that is with 3.73s in the rear which are supposed to make the clank worse. There is no drive line vibration. Perhaps my the gear man at Coast Drive line set me up better. There is absolutely no gear whine. We used Ford OEM gears so its like stock in that respect. There is also a lot more get up to my go now. Before the Mod: Loud annoying clank. After the Mod: Clank is 80 to 90 % gone. Was it drive shaft or gears? A bit of both perhaps? can't say.
Stock the car had 3.31s. After driving it about a year where I became familiar with the clank and how to avoid it most of the time with driving style. I switched to 3.73s and the Coast 4" shaft. I have been driving on that set up for about 5 months now. I am not making this up, that back lash clank is almost gone now. And that is with 3.73s in the rear which are supposed to make the clank worse. There is no drive line vibration. Perhaps my the gear man at Coast Drive line set me up better. There is absolutely no gear whine. We used Ford OEM gears so its like stock in that respect. There is also a lot more get up to my go now. Before the Mod: Loud annoying clank. After the Mod: Clank is 80 to 90 % gone. Was it drive shaft or gears? A bit of both perhaps? can't say.
Last edited by Cusp; 3/13/10 at 11:01 PM.
3/14/10, 12:11 AM
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I didn't have much clank before, and it's still the same, but I know its normal operation. You want a bit of play, not too tight.
As far as Pros/cons, I don't have any cons since it feels the same to me. The pros are the MPG's and the weight savings. I can't 'feel' the lightness, but its nice that I got that mod out of the way, as every bit helps.
As far as Pros/cons, I don't have any cons since it feels the same to me. The pros are the MPG's and the weight savings. I can't 'feel' the lightness, but its nice that I got that mod out of the way, as every bit helps.
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