Performance Mods, wasting money?
1/2/05, 07:46 AM
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Before reading my post, please click on the thread below and read the posts from "Swingle007" & "2005RedGT"
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?showtopic=12285
First of all, I tip my hat to John & Bryan and the rest of you who are leading the way with all the early Mods to our GT's!
It seems like there is not more HP to gain with the current mods being sold by aftermarket manufacturers. I feel that Ford did an excellant job squeezing out an extra 40-50 HP from the GT engine, so well in fact that there is not much more to be had with current "bolt-ons".... Look at all the exhaust gains from members who have dyno'ed their cars afterwards, 0-5 HP gains. Ford already gave us a decent exhaust from the factory, so modding the exhaust will only achieve better sound (which is what I want also) but not much in the way of HP gains. The underdrive pullies? 0 HP gain.
CAI? Well, manufacturers have been claiming up to 25HP, but if you read carefully all the posts about the gains, they all come after a SCT tune AND after removing the HC trap! So I don't think there is as much gain as advertised. :nono:
Wouldn't removing the HC trap & installing just a K&N air filter, then do the SCT tune achieve the same results?
SCT tuner? Probably the best bet for HP gains and something you will need anyway for just about every mod you make.
I think the only way to seriously gain a lot of useable HP from this engine now, is going to have to be internal mods or a SC. I think above and beyond the SCT and possibly CAI, we are just wasting money for little or no gains beyond the extra 20-40 gained with the SCT & CAI.
I am glad that I have the oportunity to read these forums while my car is in Winter storage, and decide what will be the best mods in the Spring.....It's looking like: New mufflers (for sound only) SCT tune and maybe CAI. That should be all we need to do without wasting more money on products that don't give us much more HP.......like x-pipes, cat back, pullies, headers plus dyno time after each mod we make. So, I think we could spend $1000.00 more or less and call it good! Unless another miracle bolt-on comes out in the near future???
I personally think that a SC is going to be a real consideration for me. If you just did that 1 modification along with the SCT tune, that would be the most cost effective way to go.....depending on if you wanted to spend that type of cash! I think I had it figured out to $36.00 per HP compared to almost $60.00 per HP if you did every mod available now (headers, x-pipe, cat back, muffler, pullies, CAI, SCT, etc) and you would still not gain anything beyond 20-50 HP.
Sorry to ramble on, but remember when we first drove our GT's home from the dealer? I thought, this thing is AWESOME, it's fast, handles well, this is truly the car for me! So, now "Human Nature" kicks in and suddenly it's not quite good or fast enough and I want to spend a bunch more money!! Oh well, at least I will be able to save some money and not go overboard on products that don't give as much as they say.
The best mods I have seen so far, have not been performance anyway, I like the lowering springs, the louvers, tires & wheels and of coarse the "Stripes" Our GT's just don't need much more done to them, IMHO.
.................climbing down off my soap box now, thanks for reading!
Mike
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?showtopic=12285
First of all, I tip my hat to John & Bryan and the rest of you who are leading the way with all the early Mods to our GT's!
It seems like there is not more HP to gain with the current mods being sold by aftermarket manufacturers. I feel that Ford did an excellant job squeezing out an extra 40-50 HP from the GT engine, so well in fact that there is not much more to be had with current "bolt-ons".... Look at all the exhaust gains from members who have dyno'ed their cars afterwards, 0-5 HP gains. Ford already gave us a decent exhaust from the factory, so modding the exhaust will only achieve better sound (which is what I want also) but not much in the way of HP gains. The underdrive pullies? 0 HP gain.
CAI? Well, manufacturers have been claiming up to 25HP, but if you read carefully all the posts about the gains, they all come after a SCT tune AND after removing the HC trap! So I don't think there is as much gain as advertised. :nono:
Wouldn't removing the HC trap & installing just a K&N air filter, then do the SCT tune achieve the same results?
SCT tuner? Probably the best bet for HP gains and something you will need anyway for just about every mod you make.
I think the only way to seriously gain a lot of useable HP from this engine now, is going to have to be internal mods or a SC. I think above and beyond the SCT and possibly CAI, we are just wasting money for little or no gains beyond the extra 20-40 gained with the SCT & CAI.
I am glad that I have the oportunity to read these forums while my car is in Winter storage, and decide what will be the best mods in the Spring.....It's looking like: New mufflers (for sound only) SCT tune and maybe CAI. That should be all we need to do without wasting more money on products that don't give us much more HP.......like x-pipes, cat back, pullies, headers plus dyno time after each mod we make. So, I think we could spend $1000.00 more or less and call it good! Unless another miracle bolt-on comes out in the near future???
I personally think that a SC is going to be a real consideration for me. If you just did that 1 modification along with the SCT tune, that would be the most cost effective way to go.....depending on if you wanted to spend that type of cash! I think I had it figured out to $36.00 per HP compared to almost $60.00 per HP if you did every mod available now (headers, x-pipe, cat back, muffler, pullies, CAI, SCT, etc) and you would still not gain anything beyond 20-50 HP.
Sorry to ramble on, but remember when we first drove our GT's home from the dealer? I thought, this thing is AWESOME, it's fast, handles well, this is truly the car for me! So, now "Human Nature" kicks in and suddenly it's not quite good or fast enough and I want to spend a bunch more money!! Oh well, at least I will be able to save some money and not go overboard on products that don't give as much as they say.
The best mods I have seen so far, have not been performance anyway, I like the lowering springs, the louvers, tires & wheels and of coarse the "Stripes" Our GT's just don't need much more done to them, IMHO.
.................climbing down off my soap box now, thanks for reading!
Mike
1/2/05, 08:35 AM
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Well said, and I agree 100% Ford did an excellent job tweaking the power out of this engine. Im carefully reading all the posts also and your conclusion is correct. Only time will tell, and about the only thing im really looking at is the C&L CAI. But im waiting to see real results before I buy. Im beginning to bet that a K&N filter, the Hydrocarbon Trap falls, out and a good tune. And you will be good to go!
1/2/05, 08:41 AM
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This is only PART True:
1. The exhaust cat-backs and mufflers yield very little hp gains.
2. The K&N that was in my car, LOST HP.
3. The MMR Intake yielded 18HP.
4. The best by far is the Tune, which had 23HP (btw the h/c trap was out).
I went from 232-270hp, rwhp on a Mustang Dyno, with my mods. The exhaust was the most expensive and had the least amount of hp, but sounds and looks good. There is something to be said about that since most of us do this for performance along with the visual and sound - since that is what is seen
If you go SC , then you will need an upgraded exhaust. Turbo already chagnes parts of that anyways.,
Now, the gears made a HUGE differnce, and did not affect HP - but we all know what 4:10 gears do
-Bryan
1. The exhaust cat-backs and mufflers yield very little hp gains.
2. The K&N that was in my car, LOST HP.
3. The MMR Intake yielded 18HP.
4. The best by far is the Tune, which had 23HP (btw the h/c trap was out).
I went from 232-270hp, rwhp on a Mustang Dyno, with my mods. The exhaust was the most expensive and had the least amount of hp, but sounds and looks good. There is something to be said about that since most of us do this for performance along with the visual and sound - since that is what is seen
If you go SC , then you will need an upgraded exhaust. Turbo already chagnes parts of that anyways.,
Now, the gears made a HUGE differnce, and did not affect HP - but we all know what 4:10 gears do
-Bryan
1/2/05, 08:47 AM
#4
Mike I agree. That is why I am only changing the rear gear from 3.31 to 3.73, as I have an automatic, and am having Ford reflash the PCM to correct the speedometer. I don't drive in the 100+ MPH range. The only reason I am adding a Magnaflow AxleBack kit is for the appearance of the rear of the vehicle not HP.
Don't fix what isn't broken!!
Just my opinion.
Don't fix what isn't broken!!
Just my opinion.
1/2/05, 09:09 AM
#6
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That's why I am going with more appearance changes to start out to make it unique from the others running around. I am going to wait a bit to see what the aftermarket offers since it is a bit limited thus far.
1/2/05, 09:19 AM
#7
As a Caterpillar Technician and now Service Manager I would have to ask myself the first rule of troubleshooting when approaching the GT: "Is there a problem?" In the case of the 2005 Mustang GT there isn't a problem and it isn't broken. Just enjoy it until a really proven knock you socks off improvement comes along that is truly an improvement! Only then would I consider spending my hard earned cash. In the meanwhile consider a nice set of wheels, window tinting, etc.
1/2/05, 09:20 AM
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Bryan,
What I stated was "MOSTLY" true....
#3 on your list: MMR CAI did not gain 18HP by itself, MMR only gained 8HP, but the HC gained 10HP....you should omit #3 and jump right to #4
Did you do a tune after installing the K&N filter? Because on the MMR site, they state that if they had not done a tune after removing the HC, that the car would have actually lost power instead of the 10HP gain with the tune.
I was talking about HP gains in my post, I know that gears help in the short run, so that wasn't an issue.
My biggest concerns were C&L claiming 18HP strictly from their CAI without mention of the 10HP gain that was actually from the HC removal....and also Steeda's claims of 26.7HP gain with their CAI, so OK, 10 is from the HC removal so they are claiming an additional 16.7HP from thier CAI compared to 8HP from the other 2 manufacturers.....I wonder how they are getting that extra 8HP?? Possibly a more aggresive SCT tune?? Possibly because they tested their product on a "Steeda Dyno"???
Mike
What I stated was "MOSTLY" true....
#3 on your list: MMR CAI did not gain 18HP by itself, MMR only gained 8HP, but the HC gained 10HP....you should omit #3 and jump right to #4
Did you do a tune after installing the K&N filter? Because on the MMR site, they state that if they had not done a tune after removing the HC, that the car would have actually lost power instead of the 10HP gain with the tune.
I was talking about HP gains in my post, I know that gears help in the short run, so that wasn't an issue.
My biggest concerns were C&L claiming 18HP strictly from their CAI without mention of the 10HP gain that was actually from the HC removal....and also Steeda's claims of 26.7HP gain with their CAI, so OK, 10 is from the HC removal so they are claiming an additional 16.7HP from thier CAI compared to 8HP from the other 2 manufacturers.....I wonder how they are getting that extra 8HP?? Possibly a more aggresive SCT tune?? Possibly because they tested their product on a "Steeda Dyno"???
Mike
1/2/05, 09:20 AM
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Sorry if this has already been linked... It's a write up with dyno info on adding intake and tune to the 2005:
http://www.modulardepot.com/?show=articlesdet&aid=52
http://www.modulardepot.com/?show=articlesdet&aid=52
1/2/05, 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by orthoguy@January 2, 2005, 10:23 AM
Bryan,
What I stated was "MOSTLY" true....
#3 on your list: MMR CAI did not gain 18HP by itself, MMR only gained 8HP, but the HC gained 10HP....you should omit #3 and jump right to #4
Did you do a tune after installing the K&N filter? Because on the MMR site, they state that if they had not done a tune after removing the HC, that the car would have actually lost power instead of the 10HP gain with the tune.
I was talking about HP gains in my post, I know that gears help in the short run, so that wasn't an issue.
My biggest concerns were C&L claiming 18HP strictly from their CAI without mention of the 10HP gain that was actually from the HC removal....and also Steeda's claims of 26.7HP gain with their CAI, so OK, 10 is from the HC removal so they are claiming an additional 16.7HP from thier CAI compared to 8HP from the other 2 manufacturers.....I wonder how they are getting that extra 8HP?? Possibly a more aggresive SCT tune?? Possibly because they tested their product on a "Steeda Dyno"???
Mike
Bryan,
What I stated was "MOSTLY" true....
#3 on your list: MMR CAI did not gain 18HP by itself, MMR only gained 8HP, but the HC gained 10HP....you should omit #3 and jump right to #4
Did you do a tune after installing the K&N filter? Because on the MMR site, they state that if they had not done a tune after removing the HC, that the car would have actually lost power instead of the 10HP gain with the tune.
I was talking about HP gains in my post, I know that gears help in the short run, so that wasn't an issue.
My biggest concerns were C&L claiming 18HP strictly from their CAI without mention of the 10HP gain that was actually from the HC removal....and also Steeda's claims of 26.7HP gain with their CAI, so OK, 10 is from the HC removal so they are claiming an additional 16.7HP from thier CAI compared to 8HP from the other 2 manufacturers.....I wonder how they are getting that extra 8HP?? Possibly a more aggresive SCT tune?? Possibly because they tested their product on a "Steeda Dyno"???
Mike
Summary, the MMR yeilded 18HP and had nothing to do with the h/c trap removed.
1/2/05, 10:22 AM
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Plus, most of the dyno results I have seen so far of the HC trap removal has been in the 4-5hp range, not not were NEAR 10 hp. That number for the HC trap just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
I can just see it 20 years from now, your talking to your kids about your 05 Mustang: "Yup, I tore out that HC trap and then went to the track and ran a 6.15 second quarter mile. They don't make cars like THAT anymore!!!! Where's my dentures???"
I can just see it 20 years from now, your talking to your kids about your 05 Mustang: "Yup, I tore out that HC trap and then went to the track and ran a 6.15 second quarter mile. They don't make cars like THAT anymore!!!! Where's my dentures???"
1/2/05, 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by 2005RedGT+January 2, 2005, 11:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (2005RedGT @ January 2, 2005, 11:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-orthoguy@January 2, 2005, 10:23 AM
Bryan,
What I stated was "MOSTLY" true....
#3 on your list: MMR CAI did not gain 18HP by itself, MMR only gained 8HP, but the HC gained 10HP....you should omit #3 and jump right to #4
Did you do a tune after installing the K&N filter? Because on the MMR site, they state that if they had not done a tune after removing the HC, that the car would have actually lost power instead of the 10HP gain with the tune.
I was talking about HP gains in my post, I know that gears help in the short run, so that wasn't an issue.
My biggest concerns were C&L claiming 18HP strictly from their CAI without mention of the 10HP gain that was actually from the HC removal....and also Steeda's claims of 26.7HP gain with their CAI, so OK, 10 is from the HC removal so they are claiming an additional 16.7HP from thier CAI compared to 8HP from the other 2 manufacturers.....I wonder how they are getting that extra 8HP?? Possibly a more aggresive SCT tune?? Possibly because they tested their product on a "Steeda Dyno"???
Mike
Bryan,
What I stated was "MOSTLY" true....
#3 on your list: MMR CAI did not gain 18HP by itself, MMR only gained 8HP, but the HC gained 10HP....you should omit #3 and jump right to #4
Did you do a tune after installing the K&N filter? Because on the MMR site, they state that if they had not done a tune after removing the HC, that the car would have actually lost power instead of the 10HP gain with the tune.
I was talking about HP gains in my post, I know that gears help in the short run, so that wasn't an issue.
My biggest concerns were C&L claiming 18HP strictly from their CAI without mention of the 10HP gain that was actually from the HC removal....and also Steeda's claims of 26.7HP gain with their CAI, so OK, 10 is from the HC removal so they are claiming an additional 16.7HP from thier CAI compared to 8HP from the other 2 manufacturers.....I wonder how they are getting that extra 8HP?? Possibly a more aggresive SCT tune?? Possibly because they tested their product on a "Steeda Dyno"???
Mike
Summary, the MMR yeilded 18HP and had nothing to do with the h/c trap removed. [/b][/quote]
Bryan,
All I have to go by is what people & manufacturers have posted.
On your web-site, you state that after your first dyno & tune you went from a stock HP rating of 232 to 255HP after the tune. You just posted that the HC was removed during your first dyno, so by removing the HC you gained about 10HP and then an additional 13 from the tune itself??
"Modular Mustang" quotes that after the first SCT tune with the HC trap in place, they gained 7HP, after HC removed, they gained an additional 10HP, after installing the MMR CAI, they gained 8HP & 0 gains were had with a cat-back set up. They did state however that there probably was another 10HP to be had with the SCT.
On your second dyno, your web-site states that you gained 15HP to go from 255 to 270HP so you said you only gained 15HP not 18HP from the CAI.
Did the other tweeking you did during the second tune contribute to the additional 15HP or was it all because of the CAI?
Just trying to get all these numbers straight!!
P.S. I am not against the CAI and as I have stated, I will probably buy one myself, I just want all the figures I have been reading to add up correctly!! 8HP or 15HP gain for CAI, I think it is still a good little boost.
Mike
1/2/05, 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by RRRoamer@January 2, 2005, 12:25 PM
Plus, most of the dyno results I have seen so far of the HC trap removal has been in the 4-5hp range, not not were NEAR 10 hp. That number for the HC trap just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
I can just see it 20 years from now, your talking to your kids about your 05 Mustang: "Yup, I tore out that HC trap and then went to the track and ran a 6.15 second quarter mile. They don't make cars like THAT anymore!!!! Where's my dentures???"
Plus, most of the dyno results I have seen so far of the HC trap removal has been in the 4-5hp range, not not were NEAR 10 hp. That number for the HC trap just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
I can just see it 20 years from now, your talking to your kids about your 05 Mustang: "Yup, I tore out that HC trap and then went to the track and ran a 6.15 second quarter mile. They don't make cars like THAT anymore!!!! Where's my dentures???"
It wasn't my figure!
Mike
1/2/05, 10:59 AM
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Opps, my typo, it was 15hp increase.
However, I am going back to my tuner 1 more time in 2 weeks, just to tweak some more - since I was rushed out last time. I am hoping to be at 180 when I leave and have some better torque too.
However, I am going back to my tuner 1 more time in 2 weeks, just to tweak some more - since I was rushed out last time. I am hoping to be at 180 when I leave and have some better torque too.
1/2/05, 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by 2005RedGT@January 2, 2005, 1:02 PM
Opps, my typo, it was 15hp increase.
However, I am going back to my tuner 1 more time in 2 weeks, just to tweak some more - since I was rushed out last time. I am hoping to be at 180 when I leave and have some better torque too.
Opps, my typo, it was 15hp increase.
However, I am going back to my tuner 1 more time in 2 weeks, just to tweak some more - since I was rushed out last time. I am hoping to be at 180 when I leave and have some better torque too.
Keep us all updated!!
Thanks Bryan
Mike
1/2/05, 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by 2005RedGT@January 2, 2005, 12:02 PM
Opps, my typo, it was 15hp increase.
However, I am going back to my tuner 1 more time in 2 weeks, just to tweak some more - since I was rushed out last time. I am hoping to be at 180 when I leave and have some better torque too.
Opps, my typo, it was 15hp increase.
However, I am going back to my tuner 1 more time in 2 weeks, just to tweak some more - since I was rushed out last time. I am hoping to be at 180 when I leave and have some better torque too.
1/2/05, 01:01 PM
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Hey Mike I'm with ya, ANY mod has to followed up with a tune to be effective, not doing so IS wasting money, and will probably hurt your Stang instead of help it.
But I think we all get too caught up with numbers.
You want them to add up? They won't and never will. It's the nature of the beast, I can do the exact mods that Bryan has done and I guarantee my numbers will be different.
I take the numbers with a grain of salt, a guideline so to speak.
After some time elapses, I'll make a best bang for the buck determination after the aftermarket choices are even more plentiful. I'll do a tune and whatever the numbers end up being is what they are.
Then I'll wait till I have about 100k+ miles, then the real fun will begin with a ground-up rebuild
But I think we all get too caught up with numbers.
You want them to add up? They won't and never will. It's the nature of the beast, I can do the exact mods that Bryan has done and I guarantee my numbers will be different.
I take the numbers with a grain of salt, a guideline so to speak.
After some time elapses, I'll make a best bang for the buck determination after the aftermarket choices are even more plentiful. I'll do a tune and whatever the numbers end up being is what they are.
Then I'll wait till I have about 100k+ miles, then the real fun will begin with a ground-up rebuild
1/2/05, 01:20 PM
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I can also attest to the need of a good cpu tuner prior to moding. This computer is FAR more advanced than any other CPU in Mustang history. It reads a lot of info per mili second even down to wind resistance on the car, and constantly adjusts for them. I've spent a lot of money on parts and I'm running at Aproxamitley 80% of HP potential. A good flash tuner should have been my first mod ie. SCT or Diablo (Diablo not out yet), then I would have had a good foundation to mod from. Now I have to work backwards and find a good tuner that can help my car see the benifits of all the mods I've made and money I've spent. If your planning on moding even as little as an air filter buy a tuner first, dont make my mistakes! Even more importantly find someone that is a good tuner that has a good backgroud, and a love for hot rods. That may be the key factor in building HP with the new CPU's on our Pony's IMO. Good luck everyone! 
1/2/05, 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by SixtySix@January 2, 2005, 3:04 PM
Hey Mike I'm with ya, ANY mod has to followed up with a tune to be effective, not doing so IS wasting money, and will probably hurt your Stang instead of help it.
But I think we all get too caught up with numbers.
You want them to add up? They won't and never will. It's the nature of the beast, I can do the exact mods that Bryan has done and I guarantee my numbers will be different.
I take the numbers with a grain of salt, a guideline so to speak.
After some time elapses, I'll make a best bang for the buck determination after the aftermarket choices are even more plentiful. I'll do a tune and whatever the numbers end up being is what they are.
Then I'll wait till I have about 100k+ miles, then the real fun will begin with a ground-up rebuild
Hey Mike I'm with ya, ANY mod has to followed up with a tune to be effective, not doing so IS wasting money, and will probably hurt your Stang instead of help it.
But I think we all get too caught up with numbers.
You want them to add up? They won't and never will. It's the nature of the beast, I can do the exact mods that Bryan has done and I guarantee my numbers will be different.
I take the numbers with a grain of salt, a guideline so to speak.
After some time elapses, I'll make a best bang for the buck determination after the aftermarket choices are even more plentiful. I'll do a tune and whatever the numbers end up being is what they are.
Then I'll wait till I have about 100k+ miles, then the real fun will begin with a ground-up rebuild
My concern for future modders is for them not to be wasting a lot of money then being disappointed in the end. There have been quite a few younger people on forums wanting to mod their new ride and probably some of them don't have the deep pockets needed to do some of these improvements.
I was just trying to get the facts straight for everyone.
IMHO though, I feel that the CAI numbers posted by the manufacturers is a little mis-leading. Those numbers come from the CAI & HC combined. If you don't gain any HP by taking out the HC, leave it in then!
I would like to see the dyno #'s with CAI & the HC in.
I will buy the CAI, I have installed them in previous cars. I like the appearence of them and it does change the exhaust note some. Previous versions of the CAI from Steeda, claim 7-10HP gain for older Mustangs (not Cobra)
So, I guess it really doesn't matter what the gains are, some of us will still buy them.
Mike