Muffler DELETE, Pros and Cons
7/22/04, 08:33 PM
#21
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Originally posted by Purple Hayz@July 22, 2004, 1:26 PM
Cons:
-may alienate friends, neighbors, loved ones
-may go deaf
<snip>
So that's my idea for the day. What's scary is that I'm actually half considering it.
Cons:
-may alienate friends, neighbors, loved ones
-may go deaf
<snip>
So that's my idea for the day. What's scary is that I'm actually half considering it.
Install muffler bearings. This will decrease back pressure without removing the muffler! :bang: 
7/22/04, 08:55 PM
#23
Legacy TMS Member
I see a whole new market for polished mufflers, carbon fiber mufflers, ect.
That said, I'm pretty sure resonant tuning with a factiory exhaust system is pretty much a non-issue, if there is any sort of tuning it is of the audilbe variety. cars not only have to look good, but sound good also.
My observation is the exhaust system is set-up this for packaging reasons. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the gas tank now occupies the place where the old mufflers used to be (roughly).
and another interesting tidbit on cat removal, some custom blends of fuel (mandated by localities) are worse than the leaded crap they used to spew out of cars 30 years ago. However the fuel suppliers have formulated these custom blends to function with cats, so the net effect is cleaner exhaust emissions (dubious) compared to what could be considered a regular blend of fuel. So for a daily driver, IMO its not wortj it to defeat the emissions control systems on a car.
Now for the weekend warrior car, eh... truth be known, if your using fuel injection a factory computer has no place in a race car. As an example (may only be GM but I doubt it), the EGR isn't solely used to control combustion temperatures, but is also used to improve part throttle fuel economy (if I read the article correctly), but is used to displace some of the oxygen in the cylinder. The net effect being a reduction in the amount of fuel needed for a given volume without running the engine lean (a side effect of this operation is the need to alter spark and fuel tables to compensate for the EGR)
That said, I'm pretty sure resonant tuning with a factiory exhaust system is pretty much a non-issue, if there is any sort of tuning it is of the audilbe variety. cars not only have to look good, but sound good also.
My observation is the exhaust system is set-up this for packaging reasons. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the gas tank now occupies the place where the old mufflers used to be (roughly).
and another interesting tidbit on cat removal, some custom blends of fuel (mandated by localities) are worse than the leaded crap they used to spew out of cars 30 years ago. However the fuel suppliers have formulated these custom blends to function with cats, so the net effect is cleaner exhaust emissions (dubious) compared to what could be considered a regular blend of fuel. So for a daily driver, IMO its not wortj it to defeat the emissions control systems on a car.
Now for the weekend warrior car, eh... truth be known, if your using fuel injection a factory computer has no place in a race car. As an example (may only be GM but I doubt it), the EGR isn't solely used to control combustion temperatures, but is also used to improve part throttle fuel economy (if I read the article correctly), but is used to displace some of the oxygen in the cylinder. The net effect being a reduction in the amount of fuel needed for a given volume without running the engine lean (a side effect of this operation is the need to alter spark and fuel tables to compensate for the EGR)
7/23/04, 12:14 AM
#24
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If you were referring to what I said about tuning, I was not referring to exhaust tuning, I was referring to tuning the engine to meet the needs of the exhaust.
If you've ever tried to tune a carb to meet the needs of the intake/outtake of the engine, you'll know what I mean. Or, for that matter, trying to tune 4 carbs to match.
Also, regarding EGRs, if you are racing your car, it will NEVER be at partial throttle except just before launch and after the race is over.
That being said, even on the older carbureted engines I always bypassed the EGR. So far as I've seen the EGR has always had the same purpose...to recirculate exhaust and supposedly improve MPG. Just like the air pumps...it is a stupid emissions requirement, and feel free to keep yours (especially if you live in an emission-controlled state), just don't get pissed when I pass you because I bypassed mine.
My original major was automotive engineering, but you can discount my opinion if you want.
If you've ever tried to tune a carb to meet the needs of the intake/outtake of the engine, you'll know what I mean. Or, for that matter, trying to tune 4 carbs to match.
Also, regarding EGRs, if you are racing your car, it will NEVER be at partial throttle except just before launch and after the race is over.
That being said, even on the older carbureted engines I always bypassed the EGR. So far as I've seen the EGR has always had the same purpose...to recirculate exhaust and supposedly improve MPG. Just like the air pumps...it is a stupid emissions requirement, and feel free to keep yours (especially if you live in an emission-controlled state), just don't get pissed when I pass you because I bypassed mine.
My original major was automotive engineering, but you can discount my opinion if you want.
7/23/04, 05:51 AM
#25
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Originally posted by kevinb120+July 22, 2004, 7:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kevinb120 @ July 22, 2004, 7:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Purple Hayz@July 22, 2004, 3:29 PM
I have a bad feeling about this :jedi:
Yikes, never even considered the noise violation aspect. You are right, it wouldn't even be worth it....Flomasters it is, then
Oh well, it was a fun (if completely unrealistic) idea...
I have a bad feeling about this :jedi:
Yikes, never even considered the noise violation aspect. You are right, it wouldn't even be worth it....Flomasters it is, then
Oh well, it was a fun (if completely unrealistic) idea...
[/b][/quote]Yep ....yep ...yep .....NOTHING LESS !!!
7/23/04, 07:44 AM
#26
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Originally posted by 38special@July 22, 2004, 10:47 PM
Oh Danny Boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling ye....
Oh Danny Boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling ye....
7/23/04, 11:05 AM
#28
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waaa waa waa you all cry too much
my cougar picked up a tent with out the cats and mufflers i ran 2 1/4 straights for 21 in then a drop to 2 in for 3 ins and then 1 3/4 for the last inc for back pressure it sounded awesome too and i drove it all the time every where
my cougar picked up a tent with out the cats and mufflers i ran 2 1/4 straights for 21 in then a drop to 2 in for 3 ins and then 1 3/4 for the last inc for back pressure it sounded awesome too and i drove it all the time every where
7/23/04, 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by Honda Hater@July 23, 2004, 1:45 PM
gotta love a welder and a shop with an open door to the exhaust supplies
gotta love a welder and a shop with an open door to the exhaust supplies
7/23/04, 12:45 PM
#33
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Originally posted by FinlayZJ@July 22, 2004, 6:42 PM
Ok, so you're going to tell me that a muffler doesn't create any friction loss? Given two identical 3" diameter equal length pipes, one with a muffler, one without, the exit velocity will be the same? Apparently the laws of physics fail to exist in the exhaust system of you car.
It takes pressure (a force) to move the exhaust through the pipes. The walls of the pipes create friction and how much exhaust (in CFM, cubic feet per minute) can be pushed through your pipes is a function of pipe diameter, material, length, gas density, and the amount of force it's getting pushed or pulled with. One can also consider the change in height from where it exits the block, to where it leaves the muffler. However, gases are so light that it's basically worthless. Gases are very particular about "minor" losses such as change in direction and objects that interfere with the laminar flow, such as A MUFFLER. I haven't seen the inside of the new stangs muffler, but it is usually numerous chamber and baffles, that force the gas to change direction a few times. This in turn creates friction, slowing down the speed of the air and reducing the EXIT VELOCITY. The reduced exit velocity makes the amount of gas trapped in the pipes increase, therefore creating the flow leaving the block to be slowed. This is what some call "back pressure." And for engines, larger diameter pipes usually shift the the max hp and torque numbers up the powerband.
Ok, so you're going to tell me that a muffler doesn't create any friction loss? Given two identical 3" diameter equal length pipes, one with a muffler, one without, the exit velocity will be the same? Apparently the laws of physics fail to exist in the exhaust system of you car.
It takes pressure (a force) to move the exhaust through the pipes. The walls of the pipes create friction and how much exhaust (in CFM, cubic feet per minute) can be pushed through your pipes is a function of pipe diameter, material, length, gas density, and the amount of force it's getting pushed or pulled with. One can also consider the change in height from where it exits the block, to where it leaves the muffler. However, gases are so light that it's basically worthless. Gases are very particular about "minor" losses such as change in direction and objects that interfere with the laminar flow, such as A MUFFLER. I haven't seen the inside of the new stangs muffler, but it is usually numerous chamber and baffles, that force the gas to change direction a few times. This in turn creates friction, slowing down the speed of the air and reducing the EXIT VELOCITY. The reduced exit velocity makes the amount of gas trapped in the pipes increase, therefore creating the flow leaving the block to be slowed. This is what some call "back pressure." And for engines, larger diameter pipes usually shift the the max hp and torque numbers up the powerband.
And that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying the fellas who think a car needs backpressure are wrong.
What they really mean is that exhaust flow velocity must be maintained through the RPM range to avoid loss of torque and thus HP.
Cutting off a muffler REDUCES backpressure without an increase in the pipe diameter(like aftermarket catbacks) so there is no possibility of flow velocity loss. Assuming the computer can adapt, he'll make more power with no low end torque loss like so many people complain about with aftermarket catbacks.
7/23/04, 01:29 PM
#34
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Regarding the SRT-4 not having mufflers -- turbos tend to act as a kind of natural muffler, so turbo engines can get away with resonators.
A uncorked N/A engine would likely be much louder
A uncorked N/A engine would likely be much louder
7/23/04, 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by kevinb120@July 23, 2004, 5:51 PM
check here for performance no-muffler exhaust for mustangs:
Kale Auto
Go to performance parts and order an o-pipe.
You can also get muffler bearings, blinker fluid, and a tire air-changing kit for complete maintenence.
check here for performance no-muffler exhaust for mustangs:
Kale Auto
Go to performance parts and order an o-pipe.
You can also get muffler bearings, blinker fluid, and a tire air-changing kit for complete maintenence.
7/23/04, 06:24 PM
#38
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Originally posted by kevinb120@July 23, 2004, 10:51 PM
check here for performance no-muffler exhaust for mustangs:
Kale Auto
Go to performance parts and order an o-pipe.
You can also get muffler bearings, blinker fluid, and a tire air-changing kit for complete maintenence.
check here for performance no-muffler exhaust for mustangs:
Kale Auto
Go to performance parts and order an o-pipe.
You can also get muffler bearings, blinker fluid, and a tire air-changing kit for complete maintenence.
That is one of the best sites I have seen in a long time. I have a few ricer friends, I wonder how long they will look at the site before they realise it's a **** take! I will let you know!
Cheers Kev!
7/23/04, 06:28 PM
#39
The blinker fluid thing has gotten a few peeps, check out the rice collecting in the lens
Check out the instructions, one of the best gags ever:
change your blinker fluid!
Send it to your ricer friends(god forbid you have any)
Check out the instructions, one of the best gags ever:
change your blinker fluid!
Send it to your ricer friends(god forbid you have any)
7/23/04, 06:43 PM
#40
Legacy TMS Member
If you were referring to what I said about tuning, I was not referring to exhaust tuning, I was referring to tuning the engine to meet the needs of the exhaust.
Well that was after a 13 hour in the shop all dayer - let me go back to the top - although I admit at the time I thought I was reading a comment about resonant tuning on factory exhaust.
If you've ever tried to tune a carb to meet the needs of the intake/outtake of the engine, you'll know what I mean. Or, for that matter, trying to tune 4 carbs to match.
1 carb, yeah. 4 carbs no - You got me there.
Also, regarding EGRs, if you are racing your car, it will NEVER be at partial throttle except just before launch and after the race is over.
Yep I know this
That being said, even on the older carbureted engines I always bypassed the EGR. So far as I've seen the EGR has always had the same purpose...to recirculate exhaust and supposedly improve MPG. Just like the air pumps...it is a stupid emissions requirement, and feel free to keep yours (especially if you live in an emission-controlled state), just don't get pissed when I pass you because I bypassed mine.
Naw, no smog testing that I know of in southern VA?????
As for carbed engines and emmissions controls, the two went together like oil and water so bypassing those things on a carb smog engine most probably did improve the performance of the engine (well except maybe disconnecting the air pump - there could be a benefit to performance I think in keeping exhaust gas buring after it has left the engine?)
However modern engines arent saddled with tacked on emmisions systems either, these things are designed as a system with each part complementing the other for an overall increase in performance (not just power, but efficiency, emissions, ect.)
For a daily driver (one that must do many things, and not just one thing) I don't see the value in eliminating components that were designed to complement the operation of the engine under normal driving conditions - most of the time this is part throttle operation, excactly where most of the emmissions equipment is designed to do its work and where the elimination of said emissions controls would be most apparent.
My original major was automotive engineering, but you can discount my opinion if you want.
Naw I hold your opinion in the same regard as mine or anybody else on this board. The best that can be said about it is that it is an opinion by an individual, an equal if faceless voice on the net.
Where we have differing opinions is on what constitutes performance. or rather how to achieve that performance. My stance is this, in an effort to provide the best spectrum of performance in an OE application, there is a synergy among all systems. Tinker with this by brute application and overall performance will suffer and any gains will be incremental at best.
Well that was after a 13 hour in the shop all dayer - let me go back to the top - although I admit at the time I thought I was reading a comment about resonant tuning on factory exhaust.
If you've ever tried to tune a carb to meet the needs of the intake/outtake of the engine, you'll know what I mean. Or, for that matter, trying to tune 4 carbs to match.
1 carb, yeah. 4 carbs no - You got me there.
Also, regarding EGRs, if you are racing your car, it will NEVER be at partial throttle except just before launch and after the race is over.
Yep I know this
That being said, even on the older carbureted engines I always bypassed the EGR. So far as I've seen the EGR has always had the same purpose...to recirculate exhaust and supposedly improve MPG. Just like the air pumps...it is a stupid emissions requirement, and feel free to keep yours (especially if you live in an emission-controlled state), just don't get pissed when I pass you because I bypassed mine.
Naw, no smog testing that I know of in southern VA?????
As for carbed engines and emmissions controls, the two went together like oil and water so bypassing those things on a carb smog engine most probably did improve the performance of the engine (well except maybe disconnecting the air pump - there could be a benefit to performance I think in keeping exhaust gas buring after it has left the engine?)
However modern engines arent saddled with tacked on emmisions systems either, these things are designed as a system with each part complementing the other for an overall increase in performance (not just power, but efficiency, emissions, ect.)
For a daily driver (one that must do many things, and not just one thing) I don't see the value in eliminating components that were designed to complement the operation of the engine under normal driving conditions - most of the time this is part throttle operation, excactly where most of the emmissions equipment is designed to do its work and where the elimination of said emissions controls would be most apparent.
My original major was automotive engineering, but you can discount my opinion if you want.
Naw I hold your opinion in the same regard as mine or anybody else on this board. The best that can be said about it is that it is an opinion by an individual, an equal if faceless voice on the net.
Where we have differing opinions is on what constitutes performance. or rather how to achieve that performance. My stance is this, in an effort to provide the best spectrum of performance in an OE application, there is a synergy among all systems. Tinker with this by brute application and overall performance will suffer and any gains will be incremental at best.