rhumb

I've only had short seat-time in the Stang -- you'd think you were asking to test drive a Ford GT, as opposed to Mustang GT, after a long Friday-night happy hour. Anyhow, the Stang is good, quite good overall, no doubt about that, least of all from me. Straight-line performance is excellent, as is expected, no surprises there. Great little shifter and even the clutch effort is much better. As for the handling, given my short exposure, it was quite good, worlds better than the ancient SN95 and even reminded me a bit of a meatier version of my Probe GT (perhaps no surprise given the similarities in the front suspension design and both being made in Flat Rock?).

My impressions did pretty much agree with what the scribes have scrawled in the car rags. I did try to find a few bumpy corners to really give the suspension a more credible assessment. While I wasn't going hog-wild, given the arm twisting I gave the salesman beside me just to take it for a spin, I did lean it well into a couple of less than creamy corners. The rear end was pretty decent, even here, but still unmistakably a live axle. While the old SN95 GT would go into convulsions over anything rougher than a Botts Dot, the '05 really tried to hang in there much more. But in the end, it still was a bit juddery and a touch trepidatious, if still a hoot to drive.

In comparison, I had taken an '04 GTO through the same bumpy bends, even faster (no salesman along) and it was utterly unflustered, just soaked up the lumps and muscled through unshaken composure.

Again, I'm not saying the new Stang's bad, it's really quite good, especially if price is factored in. But I will continue to argue that it could be better yet in the handling department, especially in the non-price-leader GT base and GT versions. Low price and high value are not necessarily the same thing. And I understand that a vast majority of folks on this board focus almost exclusively on straight line speed with handling as a distant second consideration. Thus, their assessments naturally reflect that in that a good suspension is good enough as long as its cheap, rugged and holds still coming off the line at the strip or green light.

While I have no doubt the live axle can do well on smooth strip and race track, my interest is purely in a robust level of non-competition handling and performance that can be exercised in the rough and tumble real world, with a decent level of ride compliance to make daily driving enjoyable, not just a weekend blast through the hills. It’s the difference between how fast a car goes and how well a car goes fast. Stratospheric test track numbers might make for impressive bar room bravado, but often make for less than impressive driving enjoyment.

Sure, IRS suspended cars can be tuned somewhat badly, and I think your 350Z, especially the performance suspension versions, is an excellent example of an overly stiff car that makes for a track star but a street chump. heck, I will readily admit that my beloved little Probe is perhaps a touch too flinty for the street at times despite its IRS, though even when my fillings are rattling to the floor rounding a crenellated turn, it does hang in there tenaciously.

But back to the original topic, I can’t help but wonder if or when other manufacturers will wake up to the potential appeal of the affordable V8 performance coupe, Pony Car if you will. This is especially true now that many Japanese manufacturers seem to have all or most of the requisite pieces to put one together, much as Ford did back in ’64. I think the V8 performance coupe is still a great idea in general, though the lack of overall evolution in refinement in the American versions over the years has somewhat relegated their appeal to a relatively small, hard core enthusiast market at the expense of a broad-based appeal of the original Stang.

The Japanese have shown they can put a lot of technology and go-fast features into a very affordable vehicles in the $25-30K price range – just look at the spec sheets of an RX-8, EVO or STi. All that’s left is to throw in an extra pair or two of cylinders and voila, instant Pony Car. They’ve done it with good success with their pickups, now how about their performance cars. And perhaps they will, as possibly with a new Supra (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...line.promo.4.*), but hopefully at an affordable price point (hope Toyota learned about overpricing the Supra, even if it did/will have supercar performance). And how hard would it be for Nissan to drop in their 4.5 V8 into the FM chassis’ed G35 Coupe to make a scorching G45 Coupe?

And as we all should know, competition only improves the breed, whether that breed be horse, goat, or some critters from across the ponds.

RED STUD

I don't think i have ever seen a japanese car that has really been designed for cheap performance like amrican muscle cars are. Whenever something imported has shown up here with a V8 it comes with a big price tag and all kinds of stupid japanese options like gps. Nothing against gps but it is not a sports car option! They will have to create something in the price range of muscle cars. Now that ive said that id just like to say id really like to see the camaro come back just for the sake of american sports cars. And i don't think they would use the LS1 anymore - whoever wrote that. They would definately have to use a tuned down LS2-like they did in 97 with the ls1.

grabbergreen

I can kinda see where the dealer is coming from, though. If his dealership is anything like the ones around here, Mustang GT's sell almost the day they arrive on the lot. Chances are pretty good that the car you drove might have been sold shortly after.

Quote:

Originally posted by rhumb@March 7, 2005, 10:52 AM
My impressions did pretty much agree with what the scribes have scrawled in the car rags. I did try to find a few bumpy corners to really give the suspension a more credible assessment. While I wasn't going hog-wild, given the arm twisting I gave the salesman beside me just to take it for a spin, I did lean it well into a couple of less than creamy corners. The rear end was pretty decent, even here, but still unmistakably a live axle. While the old SN95 GT would go into convulsions over anything rougher than a Botts Dot, the '05 really tried to hang in there much more. But in the end, it still was a bit juddery and a touch trepidatious, if still a hoot to drive.

There's a pro and con to each sort of suspension. On the one hand, IRS can help smooth out the ride over a bumpy road. On the other hand, IRS's that I know of don't have the travel of some higher-end live axles, hence why they are still favored for SUV's and off-road vehicles.

Quote:

Originally posted by rhumb@March 7, 2005, 10:52 AM
In comparison, I had taken an '04 GTO through the same bumpy bends, even faster (no salesman along) and it was utterly unflustered, just soaked up the lumps and muscled through unshaken composure.

I myself have a softspot for the GTO, if it weren't for the fact that I can't climb out of it without busting my head on the doorway.

Quote:

Originally posted by rhumb@March 7, 2005, 10:52 AM
Again, I'm not saying the new Stang's bad, it's really quite good, especially if price is factored in. But I will continue to argue that it could be better yet in the handling department, especially in the non-price-leader GT base and GT versions. Low price and high value are not necessarily the same thing. And I understand that a vast majority of folks on this board focus almost exclusively on straight line speed with handling as a distant second consideration. Thus, their assessments naturally reflect that in that a good suspension is good enough as long as its cheap, rugged and holds still coming off the line at the strip or green light.

Yeah, stoplight-to-stoplight seems to be the main focus around here. Seeing as how PA has a lot of twisties in the rural areas, though, handling is probably my priority (hence why I love the BOSS 302). I haven't driven the new Mustang yet, and probably won't be able to for a while, but I've driven enough performance cars to know what a decent-handling car should be. I figure if GM can make leaf springs work well in the rear suspension of the C6 Corvette, then Ford wouldn't bother to use a live axle unless it worked reasonably well-- their reputation hangs on the Mustang, after all.

Quote:

Originally posted by rhumb@March 7, 2005, 10:52 AM
While I have no doubt the live axle can do well on smooth strip and race track, my interest is purely in a robust level of non-competition handling and performance that can be exercised in the rough and tumble real world, with a decent level of ride compliance to make daily driving enjoyable, not just a weekend blast through the hills. It’s the difference between how fast a car goes and how well a car goes fast. Stratospheric test track numbers might make for impressive bar room bravado, but often make for less than impressive driving enjoyment.

The Lincoln LS is a good handling car. It was class-leading when it was introduced. The 350Z was great on the back-country roads, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it for driving the PA Turnpike. If you're interested in a car that's a wonderful handler, I'd recommend the Mazda RX-8. I've driven this thing and it put a BIG smile on my face (now, if only I could get in and out of it a little easier...). It takes turns like the 350Z, but without the annoying stiffness. Its ride and handling has that elusive "dialogue" quality-- you tell it what you want it to do, it quickly tells you what it can do.

<!--QuoteBegin-rhumb@March 7, 2005, 10:52 AM
But back to the original topic, I can’t help but wonder if or when other manufacturers will wake up to the potential appeal of the affordable V8 performance coupe, Pony Car if you will. This is especially true now that many Japanese manufacturers seem to have all or most of the requisite pieces to put one together, much as Ford did back in ’64. I think the V8 performance coupe is still a great idea in general, though the lack of overall evolution in refinement in the American versions over the years has somewhat relegated their appeal to a relatively small, hard core enthusiast market at the expense of a broad-based appeal of the original Stang.

The Japanese have shown they can put a lot of technology and go-fast features into a very affordable vehicles in the $25-30K price range – just look at the spec sheets of an RX-8, EVO or STi. All that’s left is to throw in an extra pair or two of cylinders and voila, instant Pony Car. They’ve done it with good success with their pickups, now how about their performance cars. And perhaps they will, as possibly with a new Supra (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...line.promo.4.*), but hopefully at an affordable price point (hope Toyota learned about overpricing the Supra, even if it did/will have supercar performance). And how hard would it be for Nissan to drop in their 4.5 V8 into the FM chassis’ed G35 Coupe to make a scorching G45 Coupe?

And as we all should know, competition only improves the breed, whether that breed be horse, goat, or some critters from across the ponds.

Quoted post

[/quote]

I'll agree with you on that last point, but I would like to make an argument against the others. A fundamental difference between an American performance motor and an import is all in where in the RPM's the best power delivery takes place.

With big displacement and superb air intakes, the Big 3 try to kill 2 birds with one stone-- high horsepower in the upper range, high torque in the lower range. The cost is in weight and balance. Until quite recently, these cars tended to be very nose-heavy and not very renowned for their handling.

The imports take the F1 approach- Small, light, higher-revving engines. Thus you see more horsepower in the upper RPM's at the cost of torque in the lower RPM's. This is how Nissan, Toyota, and Honda can eek 300 horsepower out of a 3.5L V6. Torque is important, but less so in these imports, due to their lighter powertrains, lower overall weight, and better weight distribution-- all of which could be shot to heck with a larger motor. So, Toyota has to be very careful with their V8-powered "Supra" (thanks for that link, btw).

I think it is very safe to say that the V8-powered Pony car will remain distinctly American, though that doesn't mean that some high-strung V6-powered imports can't be as good. Every country has their own distinct breed of sports car. In my opinion, it makes everything more interesting to keep it that way.

Besides, I'm hearing rumors of a Zeta-based Chevrolet Chevelle slated for 08 or 09 production, so competition for the Mustang really isn't that far off...

gt5000

WOW!, Akurei14 did you just say there will be a new camaro? Because you are sadly mistaken my friend, there is no camaro, and none to come out anytime soon.

Soccer2789

The next M3 will not be 4-door, as have BMW dropped the even number series ideas (like a 2 coupe and 4 coupe). A cost effective performance car that will be out sometime in the coming years is the BMW 130i , 255hp, 220tq around 3100 pounds and about 30k. Runs the "northloop" of the Nurburgring in a second faster than a porsche boxter.

kcsherman

Skyline Shmyline What ever happened to good old American PRIDE Spend a little $$$ and have a Mustang that can woop everyone

Stang281

I'll agree with you there, though the Mustang's 300-hp and 320 lb/ft of power at a meager $25K will likely be very difficult to beat.
[/b][/quote]
This is an unbiased opinion, the 350Z handles better than the 05 Mustang GT, hands down, but I was VERY impressed with the Mustang considering my brother's '03 GT feels sloshy when you drive it.

Yep. So does the FX45. The FX35, FX45, M45, 350Z, G35 coupe, G35 sedan, Murano, and I think maybe the Altima and Maxima are all on the FM (Front-Midship) chassis.

Actually, there is a Supra coming out...edmunds has a spy pic...now, what's different with the lastest spy pic? It has the same plates as the MK4 and MK3 in their final design before being released (apparently Toyota uses the same plate when they get close to a production model on the Supra to give a clue to people who pay attention to details). As far as the engine, heh, expect a 3.5 V6, the MK4 was rumored to have a V8 and ended up having a I6.

Oh and, there has never been a V8 in a Z car and I seriously doubt there will ever be, it's a heritage car and they don't want to break that. *If* it does happen, it will most likely be the 4.0l V8. The only update expected right now is an interior change for 2006 and the possibility of a special model 350Z (I imagine a 350Z with Nismo parts, but who knows, and no, this isn't the 35th anniversary model or track model).

BTW, the Mustang GT has far better acceleration than the 350Z, it's times are slightly lower than the 350Z on the auto-x/slalom/etc. track, so I imagine a Mustang GT vs. a 350Z on an auto-x track...that the 350Z would lose due to not being able to accelerate fast enough on the straightaways. The 350Z would only catch up in the corners and would be left again by the GT.

Stang281

Check the news, they have a concept out already...

I imagine the coupe will still be called an M3 as well.

Stang281

Wrong, Chevy is coming out with another pony/sports car 2-door coupe and priced between 20-30k. Delphi is working on a project for them called "MY2007". Rumored to be on the Zeta chassis and using a 5.3 V8, RWD.

Stang281

You're talking about a motor that holds 1400rwhp on stock internals... I wouldn't compare it to a Mustang. Apples vs. oranges IMO.

jsaylor

You're talking about a motor that holds 1400rwhp on stock internals... I wouldn't compare it to a Mustang. Apples vs. oranges IMO.
[/b][/quote]

You say this as if Ford never built a Mustang motor that could do the same? I can think of at least one twin turbo, 1500hp 4.6L running a stock Cobra (96 I believe) bottom end. John Mihovetz's Cougar is the car, although I belive he has moved on to a purpose built short-block and higher hp since then. And, the car was actually very reliable at those hpo levels. He did employ ARP fasteners on the otherwise stock bottom end, but anyone running a Skyline or Supra is going to need to do the same unles they want a ticking time bomb under their hood. I do not know where these myths keep coming from, but we actually do know how to build engines in NA too.

I used to spend a lot of time at a dyno a friend of mine ran, and I was never overly impressed with the supposed mega-hp Japanese cars. These guys almost alway over-rated their hp ("I know I am going to pull 850 at the wheels" ), and virtually always used fuel suitable for use in a SR-71 Blackbird to get it. They would have the boost turned up to a level that you could never actually drive the car around at, because they were risking blowing the thing up right then and there on the dyno as it was!

Of course, they would leave the dyno after their 650rwhp pull (where was that 850rwhp they knew they had?) , turn the boost waaaay down, fill the tank with 92 octane and drive off in their 450rwhp car. What difference does it make if you can put down the numbers for 15 seconds on a Dynojet if you cannot actually drive it that way? While this did happen with Europeans and domestics too, this phenomenon seemed especially peculiar to the Japanese car enthusiasts. There are 1000rwhp Japanese car, but there are very, very few of them and even fewer that are streetable at those hp levels

And IMHO to act like the Skyline is some wonder-weapon is just ridiculous. My friend owns a Supra, and a really well done one at that. What cars was he generally most impressed with? Well, every time a 03-04 Cobra would roll onto the dyno he would say the same thing. 'How can they get that kind of hp on 92 octane with such a minimal amount of mods from a stock car".

And, even he hated to see most of the Japanese car guys come through the door, because it was almost always the same old thing. The kind of guy whose thought process looks like this "I don't know anything about any other motor on earth, but I know my RB36000GOT8BYAV8 Mk IV can lay down 4000hp at the wheels with a throttle body and a cat-back and your motor stinks."

From a die-hard Pacific Rim guy who was a Crew Chief for a team running a Japanese car, that say volumes.

grabbergreen

You're correct about all except the Altima/Maxima, which are FWD and, therefore, can't possibly be based on the FM platform.

Soccer2789

nis350ztt-

Those concepts like these http://www.germancarfans.com/spyphotos.cfm...oid/6050228.001
(note at the bottom of the picture "artist impression")
are photoshops....you should read the fine print next time :nono:

Jason

Stang281

:bang: My fault for trusting someone on another forum who posted them as fact, they didn't have the watermark on them.

2005MustangGT

Uhm, thought this was a Mustang Website??? LOL

Stang281

You're correct about all except the Altima/Maxima, which are FWD and, therefore, can't possibly be based on the FM platform.
[/b][/quote]
Ahh.

Stang281

You say this as if Ford never built a Mustang motor that could do the same? I can think of at least one twin turbo, 1500hp 4.6L running a stock Cobra (96 I believe) bottom end. John Mihovetz's Cougar is the car, although I belive he has moved on to a purpose built short-block and higher hp since then. And, the car was actually very reliable at those hpo levels. He did employ ARP fasteners on the otherwise stock bottom end, but anyone running a Skyline or Supra is going to need to do the same unles they want a ticking time bomb under their hood. I do not know where these myths keep coming from, but we actually do know how to build engines in NA too.

I used to spend a lot of time at a dyno a friend of mine ran, and I was never overly impressed with the supposed mega-hp Japanese cars. These guys almost alway over-rated their hp ("I know I am going to pull 850 at the wheels" ), and virtually always used fuel suitable for use in a SR-71 Blackbird to get it. They would have the boost turned up to a level that you could never actually drive the car around at, because they were risking blowing the thing up right then and there on the dyno as it was!

Of course, they would leave the dyno after their 650rwhp pull (where was that 850rwhp they knew they had?) , turn the boost waaaay down, fill the tank with 92 octane and drive off in their 450rwhp car. What difference does it make if you can put down the numbers for 15 seconds on a Dynojet if you cannot actually drive it that way? While this did happen with Europeans and domestics too, this phenomenon seemed especially peculiar to the Japanese car enthusiasts. There are 1000rwhp Japanese car, but there are very, very few of them and even fewer that are streetable at those hp levels

And IMHO to act like the Skyline is some wonder-weapon is just ridiculous. My friend owns a Supra, and a really well done one at that. What cars was he generally most impressed with? Well, every time a 03-04 Cobra would roll onto the dyno he would say the same thing. 'How can they get that kind of hp on 92 octane with such a minimal amount of mods from a stock car".

And, even he hated to see most of the Japanese car guys come through the door, because it was almost always the same old thing. The kind of guy whose thought process looks like this "I don't know anything about any other motor on earth, but I know my RB36000GOT8BYAV8 Mk IV can lay down 4000hp at the wheels with a throttle body and a cat-back and your motor stinks."

From a die-hard Pacific Rim guy who was a Crew Chief for a team running a Japanese car, that say volumes.
[/b][/quote]
I don't think you understood what I meant. I wasn't saying I don't respect the power Mustangs can make, believe me, I KNOW they can make some serious HP, especially the DOHC 4V 4.6 Cobra motors in the 03/04's.

That number wasn't using a special octane gas IIRC, I believe it was either 91 or 93.

BTW, the 2JZGTE hasn't come close to what the RB26DETT is capable of... :notnice: And...have never surpassed the 1/4 times.

Just to clarify, I am an extreme car enthusiast, I love almost all cars. I have a deep love for Mustangs, Z (Nissan) cars (not the Z28 guys, they shouldn't even call their car a Z), and many other cars.

Man I sure love when people don't know engine codes, they may sound retarded to you, but it helps... BTW, each letter/number means something just so you know.

jsaylor

Okay first of all.....no, nope, uh-uh, never gonna happen. Pick any of the previous negatives you choose a Skyline is not running 1500hp on pump gas EVER. I would be hard-pressed to buy this if somebody had swapped in a larger motor like an Infiniti V-8 and then built and turbo'd it. 1500hp from the original inline-6 on pump gas? No way, no how, this one doesn't even get within a mile of passing the sniff test.

Not only is that not believeable, I would bet the house he needed at least 118-120 octane gasoline to get that number and not some piddly 104 octane like most guys showed up at the dyno with.

As for the engine codes the Japanese enthusiasts so love to cite, do not mistake not caring for not knowing. If there is one cliche that stands out above all the rest in Japanese performance car circles, and this is saying something because the Japanese performance car hobby has a plethora of cliches to go around, it is the engine code hands down. And, in case you missed it I was making fun of the very, very over-used engine code that has become a parody of itself, just an fyi since you apparently didn;t pick that up.

Nothing cool and simple for the Japanese motors like R-code, or LS1....nothing really descriptive like Super Cobra Jet. Nope, Japanese car enthusiasts are relegated to using something that could be a toaster's serial number. Also, as for knowing what they mean I used to work for a tier one supplier to Toyota (know what that means?) often times IN a Toyota factory and I saw and knew by heart more useless numbers than you have ever imagined. I also don't think it is a mystery to virtually anyone on the planet that the numbers have meaning wether they have a reason ot know that meaning or not. Kinda like telling somebody the numbers on the side of their tires mean something, just a bit obvious.

I am a well-rounded car enthusiast, I like the hard-core performance scene wherever it may be found. I prefer American iron, but I like and respect a 500hp MR2 Turbo or a well done S4 as much as the next guy. What I cannot stand are ridiculous horsepower claims that nobody who knows what they are talking about is ever going to believe and the crowd that goes with that. Unfortunately for the hardcore Japanese car enthusiasts, it would seem to be their turn to get the lion's share of these folks.

jsaylor

btw: if you know Mustang's can "put down some serious numbers" please feel free to explain why you cite the Skyline's ability to make 1500hp on pump gas as a reason why a Mustang just CANNOT be built to contend with the Nissan. I am dieing to hear this one.[

Stang281

[/quote]
Since I didn't get much info about the Skyline my friend told me about, I asked someone else about it. He says it was on C116 gas, and then says it was definitely not on a stock motor. He linked me to the site, wow...it is VERY built. http://exvitermini.com/ This isn't the first time my friend has told me BS (if you ever come across a RB26DETT1987 guy named Matt on AOL, he's the idiot I am referring to). I apologize for quoting BS info.

Ahh, I was assuming you were a normal domestic guy who had no clue about imports and considered all of them rice and then owns a Mustang GT with cobra badging and a stock GT motor. :bang:

I agree. BTW, I never claimed to know every engine code, just some.

This is why MK4 Supra's are thought to be dyno queens and highway racers. And this is why you see 600rwhp and 1000rwhp Supra's running the same 1/4 times...