Hydro-Powered Stang
Shelby GT500 Member
Joined: January 30, 2004
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From: Riverside, CA
Originally posted by future9er24@June 10, 2004, 7:20 PM
hey everybody. i was wonderin, u know how H is alot less dense than regular gasoline? would that mean a hydro car would need bigger fuel reserves? or does the combustability (is that even a word) of hydrogen make up for it?
hey everybody. i was wonderin, u know how H is alot less dense than regular gasoline? would that mean a hydro car would need bigger fuel reserves? or does the combustability (is that even a word) of hydrogen make up for it?
Shelby GT500 Member
Joined: January 30, 2004
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From: Riverside, CA
Originally posted by Horsepower844182@June 10, 2004, 7:37 PM
The only safe way to store it is in solid form...
I'm still wonder as to why there are so many "negative votes"
The only safe way to store it is in solid form...
I'm still wonder as to why there are so many "negative votes"
Not what i've heard, but ok.
Cobra R Member
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And with the Hindenburg, come on... it was a huge bag of Hydrogen, not a little metal tank, and that was 70 years ago, I'm sure American technology has surpassed German tech of the 1930's
What we really need is more bacon and less wind mill blowing lefties. 
Oh yeah, Their beer is pretty good too. :worship:
Shelby GT500 Member
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From: Riverside, CA
Metal Hydride Tanks
Metal hydrides are specific combinations of metallic alloys that act similar to a sponge soaking up water. Metal hydrides posses the unique ability to absorb hydrogen and release it later, either at room temperature or through heating of the tank. The total amount of hydrogen absorbed is generally 1% - 2% of the total weight of the tank. Some metal hydrides are capable of storing 5% - 7% of their own weight, but only when heated to temperatures of 2500 C or higher. The percentage of gas absorbed to volume of the metal is still relatively low, but hydrides offer a valuable solution to hydrogen storage.
Metal hydrides offer the advantages of safely delivering hydrogen at a constant pressure. The life of a metal hydride storage tank is directly related to the purity of the hydrogen it is storing. The alloys act as a sponge, which absorbs hydrogen, but it also absorbs any impurities introduced into the tank by the hydrogen. The result is the hydrogen released from the tank is extremely pure, but the tank's lifetime and ability to store hydrogen is reduced as the impurities are left behind and fill the spaces in the metal that the hydrogen once occupied.
Compressed Hydrogen
Hydrogen can be compressed into high-pressure tanks. This process requires energy to accomplish and the space that the compressed gas occupies is usually quite large resulting in a lower energy density when compared to a traditional gasoline tank. A hydrogen gas tank that contained a store of energy equivalent to a gasoline tank would be more than 3,000 times bigger than the gasoline tank.
Compressing or liquefying the gas is expensive. Hydrogen can be compressed into high-pressure tanks where each additional cubic foot compressed into the same space requires another atmosphere of pressure of 14.7 psi. High-pressure tanks achieve 6,000 psi, and therefore must be periodically tested and inspected to ensure their safety.
Liquid Hydrogen
Hydrogen does exist in a liquid state, but only at extremely cold temperatures. Liquid hydrogen typically has to be stored at 20o Kelvin or -253o C. The temperature requirements for liquid hydrogen storage necessitate expending energy to compress and chill the hydrogen into its liquid state. The cooling and compressing process requires energy, resulting in a net loss of about 30% of the energy that the liquid hydrogen is storing. The storage tanks are insulated, to preserve temperature, and reinforced to store the liquid hydrogen under pressure.
The margin of safety concerning liquid hydrogen storage is a function of maintaining tank integrity and preserving the Kelvin temperatures that liquid hydrogen requires. Combine the energy required for the process to get hydrogen into its liquid state and the tanks required to sustain the storage pressure and temperature and liquid hydrogen storage becomes very expensive comparative to other methods. Research in the field of liquid hydrogen storage centers around the development of composite tank materials, resulting in lighter, stronger tanks, and improved methods for liquefying hydrogen.
Chemically Stored Hydrogen
As the most abundant element in the universe, hydrogen is often found in numerous chemical compounds. Many of these compounds are utilized as a hydrogen storage method. The hydrogen is combined in a chemical reaction that creates a stable compound containing the hydrogen. A second reaction occurs that releases the hydrogen, which is collected and utilized by a fuel cell. The exact reaction employed varies from storage compound to storage compound.
Some examples of various techniques include ammonia cracking, partial oxidation, methanol cracking, etc… These methods eliminate the need for a storage unit for the hydrogen produced, where the hydrogen is produced on demand.
Carbon nanotubes
Carbon nanotubes are microscopic tubes of carbon, two nanometers (billionths of a meter) across, that store hydrogen in microscopic pores on the tubes and within the tube structures. Similar to metal hydrides in their mechanism for storing and releasing hydrogen, the advantage of carbon nanotubes is the amount of hydrogen they are able to store. Carbon nanotubes are capable of storing anywhere from 4.2% - to 65% of their own weight in hydrogen.
The US Department of Energy has stated that carbon materials need to have a storage capacity of 6.5% of their own body weight to be practical for transportation uses. Carbon nanotubes and their hydrogen storage capacity are still in the research and development stage. Research on this promising technology has focused on the areas of improving manufacturing techniques and reducing costs as carbon nanotubes move towards commercialization.
Glass Microspheres
Tiny hollow glass spheres can be used to safely store hydrogen. The glass spheres are warmed, increasing the permeability of their walls, and filled by being immersed in high-pressure hydrogen gas. The spheres are then cooled, locking the hydrogen inside of the glass *****. A subsequent increase in temperature will release the hydrogen trapped in the spheres.
Microspheres have the potential to be very safe, resist contamination, and contain hydrogen at a low pressure increasing the margin of safety.
Liquid Carrier Storage
This is the technical term for the hydrogen being stored in the fossil fuels that are common in today's society. Whenever gasoline, natural gas methanol, etc.. is utilized as the source for hydrogen, the fossil fuel requires reforming. The reforming process removes the hydrogen from the original fossil fuel. The reformed hydrogen is then cleaned of excess carbon monoxide, which can poison certain types of fuel cells, and utilized by the fuel cell.
Metal hydrides are specific combinations of metallic alloys that act similar to a sponge soaking up water. Metal hydrides posses the unique ability to absorb hydrogen and release it later, either at room temperature or through heating of the tank. The total amount of hydrogen absorbed is generally 1% - 2% of the total weight of the tank. Some metal hydrides are capable of storing 5% - 7% of their own weight, but only when heated to temperatures of 2500 C or higher. The percentage of gas absorbed to volume of the metal is still relatively low, but hydrides offer a valuable solution to hydrogen storage.
Metal hydrides offer the advantages of safely delivering hydrogen at a constant pressure. The life of a metal hydride storage tank is directly related to the purity of the hydrogen it is storing. The alloys act as a sponge, which absorbs hydrogen, but it also absorbs any impurities introduced into the tank by the hydrogen. The result is the hydrogen released from the tank is extremely pure, but the tank's lifetime and ability to store hydrogen is reduced as the impurities are left behind and fill the spaces in the metal that the hydrogen once occupied.
Compressed Hydrogen
Hydrogen can be compressed into high-pressure tanks. This process requires energy to accomplish and the space that the compressed gas occupies is usually quite large resulting in a lower energy density when compared to a traditional gasoline tank. A hydrogen gas tank that contained a store of energy equivalent to a gasoline tank would be more than 3,000 times bigger than the gasoline tank.
Compressing or liquefying the gas is expensive. Hydrogen can be compressed into high-pressure tanks where each additional cubic foot compressed into the same space requires another atmosphere of pressure of 14.7 psi. High-pressure tanks achieve 6,000 psi, and therefore must be periodically tested and inspected to ensure their safety.
Liquid Hydrogen
Hydrogen does exist in a liquid state, but only at extremely cold temperatures. Liquid hydrogen typically has to be stored at 20o Kelvin or -253o C. The temperature requirements for liquid hydrogen storage necessitate expending energy to compress and chill the hydrogen into its liquid state. The cooling and compressing process requires energy, resulting in a net loss of about 30% of the energy that the liquid hydrogen is storing. The storage tanks are insulated, to preserve temperature, and reinforced to store the liquid hydrogen under pressure.
The margin of safety concerning liquid hydrogen storage is a function of maintaining tank integrity and preserving the Kelvin temperatures that liquid hydrogen requires. Combine the energy required for the process to get hydrogen into its liquid state and the tanks required to sustain the storage pressure and temperature and liquid hydrogen storage becomes very expensive comparative to other methods. Research in the field of liquid hydrogen storage centers around the development of composite tank materials, resulting in lighter, stronger tanks, and improved methods for liquefying hydrogen.
Chemically Stored Hydrogen
As the most abundant element in the universe, hydrogen is often found in numerous chemical compounds. Many of these compounds are utilized as a hydrogen storage method. The hydrogen is combined in a chemical reaction that creates a stable compound containing the hydrogen. A second reaction occurs that releases the hydrogen, which is collected and utilized by a fuel cell. The exact reaction employed varies from storage compound to storage compound.
Some examples of various techniques include ammonia cracking, partial oxidation, methanol cracking, etc… These methods eliminate the need for a storage unit for the hydrogen produced, where the hydrogen is produced on demand.
Carbon nanotubes
Carbon nanotubes are microscopic tubes of carbon, two nanometers (billionths of a meter) across, that store hydrogen in microscopic pores on the tubes and within the tube structures. Similar to metal hydrides in their mechanism for storing and releasing hydrogen, the advantage of carbon nanotubes is the amount of hydrogen they are able to store. Carbon nanotubes are capable of storing anywhere from 4.2% - to 65% of their own weight in hydrogen.
The US Department of Energy has stated that carbon materials need to have a storage capacity of 6.5% of their own body weight to be practical for transportation uses. Carbon nanotubes and their hydrogen storage capacity are still in the research and development stage. Research on this promising technology has focused on the areas of improving manufacturing techniques and reducing costs as carbon nanotubes move towards commercialization.
Glass Microspheres
Tiny hollow glass spheres can be used to safely store hydrogen. The glass spheres are warmed, increasing the permeability of their walls, and filled by being immersed in high-pressure hydrogen gas. The spheres are then cooled, locking the hydrogen inside of the glass *****. A subsequent increase in temperature will release the hydrogen trapped in the spheres.
Microspheres have the potential to be very safe, resist contamination, and contain hydrogen at a low pressure increasing the margin of safety.
Liquid Carrier Storage
This is the technical term for the hydrogen being stored in the fossil fuels that are common in today's society. Whenever gasoline, natural gas methanol, etc.. is utilized as the source for hydrogen, the fossil fuel requires reforming. The reforming process removes the hydrogen from the original fossil fuel. The reformed hydrogen is then cleaned of excess carbon monoxide, which can poison certain types of fuel cells, and utilized by the fuel cell.
Post *****
Joined: May 13, 2004
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From: Berkeley/Redwood City, CA
Originally posted by 38special@June 10, 2004, 8:46 PM
Not to rain on your parade...but I read the other day about some one using "German technology from the 30s and 40s" to make gasoline from PIG POOP. What we really need is more bacon and less wind mill blowing lefties.
Oh yeah, Their beer is pretty good too. :worship:
And with the Hindenburg, come on... it was a huge bag of Hydrogen, not a little metal tank, and that was 70 years ago, I'm sure American technology has surpassed German tech of the 1930's
What we really need is more bacon and less wind mill blowing lefties. Oh yeah, Their beer is pretty good too. :worship:
and if gasoline doesnt kill us by ruining the air, then that will for sure
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 15, 2004
Posts: 865
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Originally posted by ManEHawke@June 10, 2004, 7:47 PM
Found all these forms at a site. Where I heard that solid is the most efficient way was on tv. Amazingle people havent done that way alot, and use other storage methods, such as a metal that absorbs it.
...Hydrogen Storage Methods...
GTR Member
Joined: May 27, 2004
Posts: 4,749
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From: Manchester, England
Hydrogen Storage Methods...
With the carbon nanotubes method. The official figure is that they have to hold 6.5% of their "Body weight". Say then that the tank weighs 100kg, thus holding 6.5kg of hydrogen. How long will that last? I have no idea about this except for what I have read on this (long!) thread.
Decipher, over to you mate
With the carbon nanotubes method. The official figure is that they have to hold 6.5% of their "Body weight". Say then that the tank weighs 100kg, thus holding 6.5kg of hydrogen. How long will that last? I have no idea about this except for what I have read on this (long!) thread.
Decipher, over to you mate
Mach 1 Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
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Originally posted by future9er24@June 11, 2004, 4:20 AM
hey everybody. i was wonderin, u know how H is alot less dense than regular gasoline? would that mean a hydro car would need bigger fuel reserves? or does the combustability (is that even a word) of hydrogen make up for it?
hey everybody. i was wonderin, u know how H is alot less dense than regular gasoline? would that mean a hydro car would need bigger fuel reserves? or does the combustability (is that even a word) of hydrogen make up for it?
GT Member
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Man, I'm gone for a couple days, and the link grows 3 pages.
I know there are alot of mechanical variables, and chemical problems to figure out, but I think that should be up to the scientists and engineers to figure out. Our job is to make it clear that we want this. I say those of us who are for this "movement" should make our voice heard. Send letters, e-mails, spread the facts to people who need clarification (the video decipher posted will be the most important one because the saftey factor seems to be the biggest gripe). If we dont, then they wouldent be as apt to actually implement something like this on a grand scale. Speak up folks, let's get this ball rolling.
I know there are alot of mechanical variables, and chemical problems to figure out, but I think that should be up to the scientists and engineers to figure out. Our job is to make it clear that we want this. I say those of us who are for this "movement" should make our voice heard. Send letters, e-mails, spread the facts to people who need clarification (the video decipher posted will be the most important one because the saftey factor seems to be the biggest gripe). If we dont, then they wouldent be as apt to actually implement something like this on a grand scale. Speak up folks, let's get this ball rolling.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 15, 2004
Posts: 865
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Originally posted by twincamfxd@June 11, 2004, 12:51 PM
Our job is to make it clear that we want this. I say those of us who are for this "movement" should make our voice heard. Send letters, e-mails, spread the facts to people who need clarification (the video decipher posted will be the most important one because the saftey factor seems to be the biggest gripe). If we dont, then they wouldent be as apt to actually implement something like this on a grand scale. Speak up folks, let's get this ball rolling.
Our job is to make it clear that we want this. I say those of us who are for this "movement" should make our voice heard. Send letters, e-mails, spread the facts to people who need clarification (the video decipher posted will be the most important one because the saftey factor seems to be the biggest gripe). If we dont, then they wouldent be as apt to actually implement something like this on a grand scale. Speak up folks, let's get this ball rolling.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: March 26, 2004
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Originally posted by Decipher+June 12, 2004, 3:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Decipher @ June 12, 2004, 3:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-twincamfxd@June 11, 2004, 12:51 PM
Our job is to make it clear that we want this. I say those of us who are for this "movement" should make our voice heard. Send letters, e-mails, spread the facts to people who need clarification (the video decipher posted will be the most important one because the saftey factor seems to be the biggest gripe). If we dont, then they wouldent be as apt to actually implement something like this on a grand scale. Speak up folks, let's get this ball rolling.
Our job is to make it clear that we want this. I say those of us who are for this "movement" should make our voice heard. Send letters, e-mails, spread the facts to people who need clarification (the video decipher posted will be the most important one because the saftey factor seems to be the biggest gripe). If we dont, then they wouldent be as apt to actually implement something like this on a grand scale. Speak up folks, let's get this ball rolling.
[/b][/quote]How about running a new poll now? Just to see how many changed their minds. Better yet, how about a poll on who would consider a Hydro-powered "vehicle". Also I bet their would be a lot more people voting ves if the poll were about any vehicle such as freestar or a focus. Because fuel economy is the more important issue with those vehicles. I bet most of the no's and maybe's came from people worring about loss of horsepower in their sports car.
Jason
Shelby GT500 Member
Joined: January 30, 2004
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From: Riverside, CA
Originally posted by JZInternet+June 12, 2004, 7:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JZInternet @ June 12, 2004, 7:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Good point. Nothing will happen and the nay-sayers will be right if we don't make it clear that this technology is desirable to us, the consumer. As this polll stands, the Yes and No sides are neck in neck - the Yes may have one vote more, but that could change at anytime. The majority said Maybe. Picture this: Companies started selling economically viable cars that run on hydrogen and cost a little more or even the same as a gasoline counterpart and had the same sound, feel, and power. Cities around the world started building hydrogen fuel stations with fuel that will in all likelyhood be way cheaper than gas. Hydrogen is also now extractable at home, allowing those in cities without stations to fuel their cars. If this were to happen within a decade, I'm sure most if not all of those maybes would become yes.
Originally posted by Decipher@June 12, 2004, 3:25 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-twincamfxd
<!--QuoteBegin-twincamfxd
@June 11, 2004, 12:51 PM
Our job is to make it clear that we want this. I say those of us who are for this "movement" should make our voice heard. Send letters, e-mails, spread the facts to people who need clarification (the video decipher posted will be the most important one because the saftey factor seems to be the biggest gripe). If we dont, then they wouldent be as apt to actually implement something like this on a grand scale. Speak up folks, let's get this ball rolling.
Our job is to make it clear that we want this. I say those of us who are for this "movement" should make our voice heard. Send letters, e-mails, spread the facts to people who need clarification (the video decipher posted will be the most important one because the saftey factor seems to be the biggest gripe). If we dont, then they wouldent be as apt to actually implement something like this on a grand scale. Speak up folks, let's get this ball rolling.
Good point. Nothing will happen and the nay-sayers will be right if we don't make it clear that this technology is desirable to us, the consumer. As this polll stands, the Yes and No sides are neck in neck - the Yes may have one vote more, but that could change at anytime. The majority said Maybe. Picture this: Companies started selling economically viable cars that run on hydrogen and cost a little more or even the same as a gasoline counterpart and had the same sound, feel, and power. Cities around the world started building hydrogen fuel stations with fuel that will in all likelyhood be way cheaper than gas. Hydrogen is also now extractable at home, allowing those in cities without stations to fuel their cars. If this were to happen within a decade, I'm sure most if not all of those maybes would become yes.
Jason [/b][/quote]
Yeah not only loss in Hp or torque, but feel and sound which will remain untouched.
GT Member
Joined: February 1, 2004
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Why not start a petition? I have convinced alot of my friends that it is the best thing to do, using the info on this very thread. If people know the facts, they will buy into it. There are alot of environmental organizations who will lend support.
I have not been convinced totally that there will be a loss of power or torque. This technology is still in its infancy, and if an engine is built with the sole purpose of being hydro powered, it will likely be more efficient.
I have not been convinced totally that there will be a loss of power or torque. This technology is still in its infancy, and if an engine is built with the sole purpose of being hydro powered, it will likely be more efficient.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 15, 2004
Posts: 865
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I don't think a new poll would owrk here. Anytime any poll is put up here that even slightly resembles an issue that's already had a poll here, it's locked up tight really fast. Even if a lot of time has passed and a lot of people have most likely changed their minds. Oh well. If someone were to start a poll on their own site, linking this thread as a reference, then that would be cool. Just gotta be careful about people deleting cookies and history in order to vote more than once.
Cobra Member
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Originally posted by thezeppelin8+June 8, 2004, 12:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (thezeppelin8 @ June 8, 2004, 12:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-shocktech@June 8, 2004, 11:23 AM
imagine if we spent the 96 billion dollars we spent on war with iraq on financing alternative fuel research!!
imagine if we spent the 96 billion dollars we spent on war with iraq on financing alternative fuel research!!
Imagine if we spent the 96 billion dollars we spent on war with iraq to
...better education
...cure world hunger
....do every good thing managable.
That is the thing, whenever we spend money, everyone says how it could have been allocated. It is just like the people who would have said
"If we spent 96 billion dollars that we put into education, we could have"
...eliminated world hunger.
That is the thing. No matter what the government spends money on, there is always a group who thinks it should be allocated for something else.
Cobra Member
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Also, more on topic 
Not to be a dissenter to the prevelant opinion of this poll (that we should move to hydrogen) but what about the methods to manufacture it? The manufacture hydrogen, it requires electricity, which requires the use of fossile fuels or materials that can/will damange the environment. I am not trying to start a fight, just stating a drawback to the use of hydrogen.
Decipher-Is there an alternate to something I just mentioned?
Not to be a dissenter to the prevelant opinion of this poll (that we should move to hydrogen) but what about the methods to manufacture it? The manufacture hydrogen, it requires electricity, which requires the use of fossile fuels or materials that can/will damange the environment. I am not trying to start a fight, just stating a drawback to the use of hydrogen.
Decipher-Is there an alternate to something I just mentioned?