dke

Forgive a little the newbie question. I get that there are many different flavors and histories behind the different models. But Autoweek is talking about different special editions and SEMA, and I have interest in seeing which is which, and why. But what are the different interpretations?

I get that Cobra and Jet would be in reference to Shelby, and would be street racing versions. (and higher end). But I'm not sure what the diff would be between a Shelby Cobra and SVT. (Other than whether Ford did it or Shelby). I get the Boss lineage a little. But what would make a modern Boss different. (Blue with a black stripe). The bullit is just green with a scoop? And what makes a mach a mach? Some have alternated between fastbacks or not. And motors kind of vary as well. Is one better on a drag strip but not really cornering? Or Cobras are supercharged (now) and the others are normally aspirated? Is it just whether they have a hood scoop and spoiler? What would make each car unique from the rest of the brand?

Thanks...

The Deviant One

HOLY SHMOLEY! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING RIGHT?

:nono: Looks like you need a mustang history lesson.

The Deviant One

Before anybody starts flaming me for being an inconsiderate hineyhole, here goes......

First off.....the Cobra Jet is an 428ci engine package that was offered on '69/70 mustangs, especially on Mach 1's. Originally, it was developed in late 1967 and in 68 it was offered on a few fastbacks that were given to Ford-backed drag racing teams. Secondly....the Shelby Cobra and Ford SVT Mustang "Cobra" are two entirely different cars. The Shelby Cobra was a small 60's sports car that was developed in the early 60's by Ford racer Carroll Shelby in response to the Chevy Corvette. The Mustang Cobra was developed in 1993 by Ford's Special Vehicles Team (SVT) as an upscale mustang model (an ultimate mustang, if you will). It featured an improved engine and a body kit to differentiate it from a GT. Today, a 03/04 Cobra features a supercharged 390+hp 4.6L 4valve V8 and features a front bumper, rocker panels, rear facia and a spoiler that is different from that of a GT. Thirdly....the Boss 302 was offered only in the 69/70 model years to go racing in SCCA road race competitions and Trans-Am races and offers a 302ci small-block V8 and sportier suspension compared to the big-block Mach 1. As of now, there are no official plans for a new Boss mustang yet. Fourth....the Bullitt mustang was a special limited edition mustang featured only in 2001 to get waning Mustang sales up and was modeled after the green 68 fastback that Steve McQueen drove in the movie "Bullitt". It is basically a souped up mustang GT with a new intake, free-flowing exhaust, better suspension tidbits, and better brakes. Lastly, the Mach 1 was developed in 1969-1970 and was offered only in fastback form. It came with two engine options: a small block 351 Cleveland V8 or a big block 428 Cobra Jet with a functional ram-air shaker hood scoop. Unlike the Boss 302, which was a sweet road racer, the Mach 1 was mainly used by hardcore racers for drag racing, especially when equipped with the 428CJ. For 2003, Ford unveiled a new Mach 1 which features a naturally aspirated 305+hp 4.6L 4V V8 and it comes with a functional shaker scoop as did the originals back in 69.

WHOA! I think I need a breather after all that!

Sorry for the flames. Its just when it's this late at night and trying to ge homework done, I try to find some form of amusement. Anyways, welcome to the board.

dke

That history is sorta what I'm asking for. But also just how is ford going to differentiate each flavor of mustang? What would you expect from each?

Rumors are the SVT is going to have an independent rear end and be supercharged and around 400 hp. Sounds good. But what would differentiate the rest. If I was a marketing wonk with some technical understanding of cars, how could I differentiate each model?

Some of it matters to me, and some not. Talk to a corvette guy about power, and within 5 minutes they're giving you a lecture about pushrods. (Yawn). We can debate the merits of SOHC, DOHC vs pushrods all day. And I personally like variable valve timing and DOHC and superchargers over normal aspiration or turbo or ram-air. But the true question is power to weight and reliability (and specifically breathing) which is more an implementation detail than a technology detail. What I care about is that the stock Vette has better HP, stopping and cornering than a Mustang. But I'd rather have a Mustang for the style, brand, convenience, rear seat, cost/value, etc. -- and still get performance up there. What I liked about my M3 was it had incredible power to displacement, and was an incredible sports car AND daily driver. And I'd debated over a Saleen or BMW before I got it. The new Mustang and Ford are bringing me back handily, but I'm trying to learn a bit here -- and decide which Stang says more about me and which I'd like to get into.

dke

Sorry if that was a little confusing. I'd responded to your first reply, and your second had gone up, before I hit send. (So they're out of order). Thanks for the reply.

I understand the Shelby Cobra (AC Cobra) thing. But today, they're talking about Shelby doing a new Mustang Cobra (or I thought I'd read that). Which seemed to be different from the new Cobra (that's not a Mustang). It is possible the writer was confused or confusing, but I didn't know if they were implying Shelby doing a version of the Mustang Cobra or working with SVT on it, or if he was just confusing the Cobra (that new convertible) with the Mustang. But I'm pretty sure I read a few places that Shelby was involved with flavors of the new mustang as he had been in the past.

I appreciate the history stuff; and had gotten most of it from various Stang sites, and a little from memory. But I'm still looking for what would make a new Stang a Boss, versus a Mach, versus a Bullitt. (The autoweek article talked about Ford making SE variants). I realize the names have a herritage. But a Boss motor was in a Mach -- but today, if they were branding them, how would they do it. A Boss was a few motors; but what differentiated them other than who did them? (I get that a hemi is a different design because of the hemispherical head/combustion chamber, etc., etc.). But what makes it a Boss? There were various Mustang Machs -- but what made it a Mach over a GT? So the Bullitt and Machs were both GT's with a little more. Were they just different names for the same basic thing?

The one thing I think I got is that the Mach would probably have a functional shaker and ram-air induction (which I question in the days without carbs, though I'm sure increasing air-pressure helps). The Bullitt had an air-scoop as well, but wasn't a shaker. (or functional?)

EleanorsMine

Bullitt

dke

Thanks elanor, I read the link (good article).

So the Mach will have ram-air scoop.
The Bullitt will be green, be slightly tuned over the GT (but not major mods), and be a bit more refined?
Someone in another thread said they'll put a cammer in the Boss?

I'm starting to get an idea about the differences in the SE's.

mr-mstng

The mach is more of a straight line car. The Boss would be more tuned to having better suspension and brakes(bsing this on the ones from the 69/70). The IMO, the Shelby would have the straight line capability of the Mach 1, and the handling characteristics of the Boss. All this is just pure speculation mind you. Also, there is some confusion as to whether the SVT would be called a Shelby Cobra or not.

Confused?? Good, so am I.

Redbaron93

You can get all the onfo you need by looking in Timeline at the top of the page.
http://bradbarnett.net/mustangs/timeline/index.htm
Go here for info on new Mach 1's
http://www.mach1registry.com/index1.htm

muletman

The Mach 1 was released in 1969 with the following engines, 351 windsor,390 (big block), 428 Q code (non ram air), 428 R code (drag pack,ram air,Shaker hood).The following year the 351 windsor, was replaced by the 351 Cleveland, the 390 was dropped from the lineup, and the 428 remained as the top performer.

dke

Thanks. I appreciate the history stuff -- but I'd read a bit of it already. I was more interested in what would differentiate each model from each other. (More what mr-mstng was saying). It'll be fun seeing what Ford shows. I'd love it if they had prototypes of each, just to differentiate all the personalities at one time (see what their take is going to be). I suspect they'll release one at a time.

Steve

GT, Mach 1, Bullitt, SVT Cobra - I'll take one of each please!

rhumb

Another small aside/detail. Ford installed a limited number of the 427s early on in, I think, the '68 model year, which was supplanted by the 428 later on in the year. While the 428 went under the Cobra Jet moniker, I'm not sure the 427 did, rather, just being just sold as the "427."

As for general characters, as has already been described:

Boss: At least in its original 302 guise was the race track racer harkening to the Mustang Trans Am racers of the day. The rare Boss 429 was basically a means to produce enough of the semi-hemi-head 429 motors to make them eligible for use in NASCAR racers (which weren't Mustangs ironically). The '71 Boss 351 was somewhere between the original Boss 302 and the Mach I, being too big and heavy to really be a road racer yet the mid-block Cleveland 351 wasn't quite as optimized for strip use as the big 429 motors. Should the S197 get a "Boss," or perhaps they'l call it the "GTR," expect a high performance version of the DOHC 4V Mod motor, likely in 4.6 liter size but perhaps with a 5.0, maybe with a tight ration 6 speed MTX. The GTR racer might give some, though not 1:1, idea of styling. Suspension will be upgraded of course, though whether they'll stick with a cruder live axle for cost reasons or step up to a more capable IRS is debatable at this point.

Bullitt: Sort of like Steve McQueen in the movie -- cool and understated yet potent and something to be reccond with. Gotta be highland green with minimal interior/exterior decoration but some good performance bits underneath.

Mach I: Basically aimed at the drag strip, trading away some overall dynamic balance to dominate at simple straight line acceleration. Big motor, live axle, brash styling and graphics. The '69-'71 versions came with either mid (351) or big (390, 428, 429) block motors while the current version comes only with a version of the 4.6 4V motor tuned a bit more for torque. If the S197 Stang gets a Mach I version, I wouldn't be surprised to see a naturally aspirated 3 or 4V version of the "big block" 5.4.

SVT Cobra: Uber Mustang, basically going for ultimate all around performance yet with a high level of refinement. Biggest, most powerfull motor, most capable IRS suspensions, biggest brakes, etc., yet with a high level of refinement, balance and comfort levels. Think sort of an Ford version of a BMW M car. Look for a slightly detuned version of the Ford GT's supercharged 5.4 motor along with an uprated IRS suspension, big brakes, significant but refined styling enhancements and upscale interior appointments.

vld

Shelby has a concept 'Shelby Cobra' AND is rumored to be collaborating with SVT on an s197 SE possibly the 'Mustang Cobra'.

An 05 'Bullitt' would likely have a tuned and possibly slightly modded 4.6, upgraded suspension and brakes and interior upgrades. All this and cosmetics too.

A 'Mach' and or 'Boss' would likely get a more severely modded and tuned 4.6 suspension and brake upgrade over the Bullitt. And of course the obligatory stripe package and interior upgrade. They could also get a tweaked-out, blown, DOHC 5.4 (or any combination of the aforementioned) to approximate a 'Boss 429' but I doubt it. But then again I am NO expert on this subject and this is all just corn shucks and contemplation.

What made it a Boss? The engine; a 'Boss 302'. A 302 ci race tuned v8. What is 'race tuned'? On these older carburated cars I truly do not know. I would guess a lumpier cam better carb and more aggressive timing. Oh, and the exterior cosmetics.

What made it a Mach over a GT? In '69 it was stripes and an interior upgrade that made the difference. In 2002 it was cosmetics, an ex-cobra mill (4v 4.6), a functional shaker and gears and tranny I believe that made the difference.

The 2000+ Bullitts and Machs were cars that were built on the GT chassis and used much of the GT framework but really were unique vehicles. Bullitt Mach and GT are in fact not different names for the same thing though they are closely related to one another.

The shakers primary contribution to performance in '69 was allowing the engine to take in cooler exterior air as opposed to having the engine take in super heated air from the engine compartment, same function it performs today.

dke

Thanks rhumb....

To mess things up a bit, how would your rate the main tuners. Rouch, Saleen, etc.

I took Saleen to try to make a SVT before Ford does. Then when Ford does, to try to step it up a notch. But I hadn't paid much attention to the others.

mr-mstng

Saleen and Roush are both aftermarket tuners, that have their own interpretation of what a high-performance road car should be. Roush seems to be giving a half-hearted effort at it, while to Saleen, this is their bread and butter, money maker.

Saleen has been around longer than any of the others, so I figure they will have the best (and most likely the priciest) product. Expect to see pictures/info of both cars from SEMA in Nov.

97RedSnake

Wow, you might as well have said, "Please give me a complete history of the Mustang." lol Not flaming, these were just some big questions.

Also, i want to point out a couple of things. First, i believe the Boss 302's engine came with basically the 351 Cleveland's heads. This was a big reason why the Boss 302 was such a high-revving race car.

Now, as far as my guesses on what would go where in future versions of these cars...hmmm. Well, if they are going to stay true to the names:

The Boss would have great handling abilities and a naturally aspirated motor that wants to rev to redline. A version of the 5.0 cammer would fit nicely here, and make the name Boss 302 work as well. It would also come in the bright color schemes with black Boss stripes on the side and black hood and rear wing. (Basically the GT-R show car with a bit more interior. )

The Mach 1 would aim more toward the straight-line performance. It would have great bottom end torque, and a solid axle rear end with possibly higher ratio rear gears. I could see a version of the current Cobra's S/C engine in a new Mach 1, or perhaps a S/C version of the new 3 valve motor. It would come with the Mach 1 black stripes and black wing with a little more subdued color schemes than the Boss. It would also come with optional automatic transmission.

The Bullitt would have improved handling and braking over the regular GT, and a engine with say 40 to 50 more hp and torque than the regular GT. It would come in a very limited number of dark color choices which would, of course, include Dark Highland Green. It should have a very subdued over-all appearance and come with no rear wing and no foglights or driving lights in the grill. Sort of a sleeper with a Bullitt badge on the back and a few special interior touches.

Of course, anything we guess right now is pure speculation. But, these ideas would fit the theme of each model name, and i think would stay true to their roots. I wouldn't expect more than one SE at a time though. And, i would guess that each SE will last for only a couple of years at most.

I could see a one year deal with a Bullitt model, followed by the Mach 1 for a couple of years and then the Boss for a couple - OR - They could produce the Boss as the replacement for the Cobra R and make it a race-only model. Then we could have the Boss at the same time as the Mach, and a Cobra in between. We will see though.

97RedSnake

Also, SVT stands for Special Vehicle Team, and is a performance group within Ford itself. They aren't a after-market tuner. When you see SVT, it is a Ford produced vehicle.

dke

Thanks redsnake... that was exactly what I was trying to ask for. And along with all the others, it's really clarified my position in the market.

I personally would have the most interest in the Bullitt type thing (a nice powerful but subdued sort of U.S. autobaun type car). Or the SVT. The Boss sounds fun, but probably a little too showy for me -- though a lot of people would love it, and I can see the appeal. And the Mach isn't my cup of tea, but a lot of people would love them...

I'm also curious if Saleen would do it for me. I'm not sure about 3rd party tuners. (They do good jobs and all -- but I think they tend to be too far on the performance side of the comfort<---->performance scale. ) I like edgy, but a lot of street cars are heck on longer trips or bad roads. I'm looking for balance.

Another thing they could do for the Bullitt, that I'd enjoy is possibly a DSG, SVG or whatever you want to call it. (Fast shifting automatic with paddles/autostick). I do some city driving, and while I love my sticks on the esses, I think the newer generations of autos are getting darn close and a lot easier to live with in traffic. I assume it would be sacralidge to put an auto in a snake. (Can you? Does it have manual override?)

Two things I'd love; the hatchback and glass roof of the concept. (I'm not a convertible guy, but like sunroof occasionally or at least seeing out). And I have 96 M3 -- the trunk looks about identital in size and hood shape as the new Stang. It works, but a liftgate would be more convenient. (Even if you pay a little weight).

And while it wouldn't fit the format of Mustang, if I was dreaming, a high performance AWD. I could see it being a killer in the rally car position. We get snow, and RWD is great for summer, but in the winter, I'm just not sure replacement tires and traction control are enough. (Especially with that much torque. My M3 RWD w/All Seasons is drivable in winter, but you need to be pretty careful even with Traction Control).

Thanks again for all the help...

crazyhorse

The biggest problem I am aware of with Saleen is service after the sale. Apparently it is difficult to get warranty claims solved. I don't own a Saleen (don't like the cheese grater styling), but, I have talked to 3 or 4 dealers that have had problems with the service. Several have dropped Saleen from their dealerships.

Roush makes a fine tuner car and they are good with service. The problem with them is expense. The SVT offers as much/more performance for less money.

If you want the ultimate tuner, look at the tuners that tune SVT Cobras. Kenny Brown's Cobra S (kennybrown.com) is my favorite, Sean Hyland in Canada and I think Saleen even does some CObras.

I nearly bought an '03 Cobra and had KEnny Brown tune it for me. At that time the rumors of the '05 were surfacing and I decided to wait. I think it will be well worth it.