rocker/lifter problems
10/2/12, 06:27 AM
#1
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rocker/lifter problems
Ok, so my car sat for only 3 weeks with the @$$ jacked up in the air. It has sat for way longer periods with no issues. And if it matters I have tfs heads, tfs chromoly Pushrods, scorpion 1.72 pedastool rr.
My problem is when I fired it up I had a loud noise in the left valve cover. So I pulled it off. Upon inspection all of the rockers were loose. So I figured it was just time to adjust them. Well I adjusted them all and when I got back to 0* tdc they were all loose again. The lifters are the only thing in the topend that are stock. But I don't see collapsing all of them at the same time. Last time I drove it, she was abused pretty hard, but priming issue sounds most logical?
The only thing I can come up with is the lifters lost prime. I have an old distributor I use for priming the engine. Should I prime everything and retry? If so should I loosen up the rockers first?
Btw I definitely did the procedure right with the proper HO firing order. I have had these off a few times. So I know the procedure very well. Even if I used the wrong order 1 and 6 would still be good, but they aren't. And also the car has sat for way longer periods without priming issues.
Thanx in advance and please any input is welcome.
My problem is when I fired it up I had a loud noise in the left valve cover. So I pulled it off. Upon inspection all of the rockers were loose. So I figured it was just time to adjust them. Well I adjusted them all and when I got back to 0* tdc they were all loose again. The lifters are the only thing in the topend that are stock. But I don't see collapsing all of them at the same time. Last time I drove it, she was abused pretty hard, but priming issue sounds most logical?
The only thing I can come up with is the lifters lost prime. I have an old distributor I use for priming the engine. Should I prime everything and retry? If so should I loosen up the rockers first?
Btw I definitely did the procedure right with the proper HO firing order. I have had these off a few times. So I know the procedure very well. Even if I used the wrong order 1 and 6 would still be good, but they aren't. And also the car has sat for way longer periods without priming issues.
Thanx in advance and please any input is welcome.
10/2/12, 07:11 AM
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I know you stated you adjusted your rockers and know the procedure I'm just curious on the procedure you used/how you did it.
some other issues that can cause a noisy valvetrain are push rods that are not the correct length or lifters that aren't clean enough to pump up and bleed down correctly and contaminants in lifters can clog their check valves. If this happens, they won't function correctly. Either disassemble and soak your lifters for a couple of days in mineral spirits, or buy new ones.
some other issues that can cause a noisy valvetrain are push rods that are not the correct length or lifters that aren't clean enough to pump up and bleed down correctly and contaminants in lifters can clog their check valves. If this happens, they won't function correctly. Either disassemble and soak your lifters for a couple of days in mineral spirits, or buy new ones.
10/2/12, 07:34 AM
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Thanx for the reply
The procedure I used:
Find 0* tdc. I verified compression stroke with my finger on the hole and dizzy pointing at #1
Then starting at #1 I loosened everything up.
I wiped the pushrod dry, so I can spin it in my fingers.
I tightened the polylock until I can't roll the pushrod in my finger (0 lash) then I added 5/8 of a turn to the nut. I did this on both intake and exhaust to rockers.
I then tightened the set screw while holding the nut with a wrench.
Then I spun the crank exactly 1/4 turn.
Then using the HO firing order, verifying by the wire order on the dizzy to be safe even though I know it in my head. I go to the next set of rockers and repeat procedure until I get back to 0*.
When I got back to 0* they were all loose again.
The procedure I used:
Find 0* tdc. I verified compression stroke with my finger on the hole and dizzy pointing at #1
Then starting at #1 I loosened everything up.
I wiped the pushrod dry, so I can spin it in my fingers.
I tightened the polylock until I can't roll the pushrod in my finger (0 lash) then I added 5/8 of a turn to the nut. I did this on both intake and exhaust to rockers.
I then tightened the set screw while holding the nut with a wrench.
Then I spun the crank exactly 1/4 turn.
Then using the HO firing order, verifying by the wire order on the dizzy to be safe even though I know it in my head. I go to the next set of rockers and repeat procedure until I get back to 0*.
When I got back to 0* they were all loose again.
10/2/12, 07:37 AM
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Oh also. I used a pushrod checker to verify the recommended size pushrod that trickflow told me to use. I also verifired vulcrum height. They were working great for a while now until it sat with the a$$ up in the air.I believe they are 6.75 long Pushrods.
10/2/12, 09:24 AM
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Thanx for the reply
The procedure I used:
Find 0* tdc. I verified compression stroke with my finger on the hole and dizzy pointing at #1
Then starting at #1 I loosened everything up.
I wiped the pushrod dry, so I can spin it in my fingers.
I tightened the polylock until I can't roll the pushrod in my finger (0 lash) then I added 5/8 of a turn to the nut. I did this on both intake and exhaust to rockers.
I then tightened the set screw while holding the nut with a wrench.
Then I spun the crank exactly 1/4 turn.
Then using the HO firing order, verifying by the wire order on the dizzy to be safe even though I know it in my head. I go to the next set of rockers and repeat procedure until I get back to 0*.
When I got back to 0* they were all loose again.
The procedure I used:
Find 0* tdc. I verified compression stroke with my finger on the hole and dizzy pointing at #1
Then starting at #1 I loosened everything up.
I wiped the pushrod dry, so I can spin it in my fingers.
I tightened the polylock until I can't roll the pushrod in my finger (0 lash) then I added 5/8 of a turn to the nut. I did this on both intake and exhaust to rockers.
I then tightened the set screw while holding the nut with a wrench.
Then I spun the crank exactly 1/4 turn.
Then using the HO firing order, verifying by the wire order on the dizzy to be safe even though I know it in my head. I go to the next set of rockers and repeat procedure until I get back to 0*.
When I got back to 0* they were all loose again.
this how to do them:
1. Begin by placing the new pedestal inserts/mounts (flat side down) into the fulcrum guide (you can use your stock ones or, if your set came with new ones, you can use the ones supplied with your rocker arms), with a dab of grease or molly lube on the bottom of the inserts and the bottom of the guides, and set the fulcrum guide with mounts onto the cylinder head. Insert your allen head bolt through the rocker arm make sure the pivot inside the rocker arm has the flat side up - toward the bolt head and squeeze a little molly lube on the roller tip of the rocker. Then put the rocker/bolt assembly through the pedestal mount and fulcrum guide and screw the bolt into the cylinder head - snugging each rocker finger tight as you go (make sure the pushrod stays in the cup at the end of the rocker. Repeat for all 16 roller rocker arms.
2. Once all 16 rocker arms are installed to snug, turn the engine over, clockwise to top dead center , and check the number 1 cylinder intake and exhaust valves. They should both be closed (you should be able to spin the pushrod). If they are not both closed the crankshaft will need to be rotated 360* to TDC to correctly start the torque-ing procedure.
3. With the engine at TDC, torque the number 1 intake, number 1 exhaust, number 4 intake, number 3 exhaust, number 8 intake, and number 7 exhaust rocker arms to 15 lb.ft. with a torque wrench.
4.Once torqued the pushrods should still be able to be rotated. If they will not rotate, the shims will have to be implemented. Begin with the thinnest shim and repeat the above procedure until the pushrods can be rotated without any end play. ( if your push rods are to short you need longer push rods)
5. Once these valves have been checked and the rocker arms adjusted, continue to the next set by rotating the crankshaft 360* and torqueing the number 3 intake, number 2 exhaust, number 7 intake and number 6 exhaust rocker arms in the same manner as the previous set.
6. Complete the torquing process by rotating the crankshaft an additional 90* and torque the number 2 intake, number 4 exhaust, number 5 intake, number 5 exhaust, number 6 intake, and number 8 exhaust rocker arms as above.
from the sounds of it ( going by your post) is isn't set right. go at it again
10/2/12, 09:33 AM
#6
If you go by the OPs procedure for zero lash it is incorrect for the pushrods to not be able to twist in your fingers. You want it at the point that you feel resistance and there is no end play. To go until you cannot twist it is too far.
OP did you use this procedure when you originally installed the heads.
OP did you use this procedure when you originally installed the heads.
10/2/12, 10:06 AM
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Sorry, I get confused between pedastool and stud. I feel like a **** now. One minute I will show you the stuff I have and the instruction I used. I located my heads on summit and pulled the PDF instruction sheet
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TF...4-M61/?rtype=1
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TF...4-M61/?rtype=1
10/2/12, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 2k7gtcs
If you go by the OPs procedure for zero lash it is incorrect for the pushrods to not be able to twist in your fingers. You want it at the point that you feel resistance and there is no end play. To go until you cannot twist it is too far.
OP did you use this procedure when you originally installed the heads.
OP did you use this procedure when you originally installed the heads.
10/2/12, 10:23 AM
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Dude I don't like those instructions at all ( no suprise though, i have seen worse ones trust me).
I'm going to give it to you straight, this is the correct method for stud mounted rockers right here ( are you sure what you have ? )
this is it this is the method for stud mount rollers
1. pick a cylinder you are going to do the pre-load on, only do one cylinder at a time.
2. rotate the engine clockwise and watch the exhaust valve at the cylinder you are working on. When the exhaust valve begins to open adjust that cylinders intake rocker arm.
3. To adjust: back off the intake rocker arm adjusting nut and remove any tension from the push rod. Wait a few minturs for teh hydraulic lifter to return to a neutral position.
4. Twist the intake push rod while tighten down the rocker arm. when you feel a slight resistance to the tightening of the push rod you are at "zero lash". Turn the adjusting nut down 1/2 to 3/4s of a turn from that point..the intake is now adjusted properally.
5. Continue to turn the engine watching the same intake valve/rocker arm you just adjusted. It will go full open then start to close. when it is almost closed stop and adjust the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder, loosen the adjusting nut on the exhaust rocker arm and follow the same steps has in 3 & 4 .
6. Both valves are adjusted on this cylinder and now you can move on to the next cylinder following the same procedure.
you may gets some valve train noise until the oil pressure stabilizes and the motor heats up to operating temp.
and incase you don't have studs I'll paste the pedestal instructions from my previous post.
.
I'm going to give it to you straight, this is the correct method for stud mounted rockers right here ( are you sure what you have ? )
this is it this is the method for stud mount rollers
1. pick a cylinder you are going to do the pre-load on, only do one cylinder at a time.
2. rotate the engine clockwise and watch the exhaust valve at the cylinder you are working on. When the exhaust valve begins to open adjust that cylinders intake rocker arm.
3. To adjust: back off the intake rocker arm adjusting nut and remove any tension from the push rod. Wait a few minturs for teh hydraulic lifter to return to a neutral position.
4. Twist the intake push rod while tighten down the rocker arm. when you feel a slight resistance to the tightening of the push rod you are at "zero lash". Turn the adjusting nut down 1/2 to 3/4s of a turn from that point..the intake is now adjusted properally.
5. Continue to turn the engine watching the same intake valve/rocker arm you just adjusted. It will go full open then start to close. when it is almost closed stop and adjust the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder, loosen the adjusting nut on the exhaust rocker arm and follow the same steps has in 3 & 4 .
6. Both valves are adjusted on this cylinder and now you can move on to the next cylinder following the same procedure.
you may gets some valve train noise until the oil pressure stabilizes and the motor heats up to operating temp.
and incase you don't have studs I'll paste the pedestal instructions from my previous post.
.
Last edited by skunk21; 10/2/12 at 10:42 AM. Reason: removing pedestal and leaving stud mount so you don't get confused.
10/2/12, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by skunk21
Dude I don't like those instructions at all ( no suprise though, i have seen worse ones trust me).
I'm going to give it to you straight, this is the correct method for stud mounted rockers right here ( are you sure what you have ? )
this is it this is the method for stud mount rollers
1. pick a cylinder you are going to do the pre-load on, only do one cylinder at a time.
2. rotate the engine clockwise and watch the exhaust valve at the cylinder you are working on. When the exhaust valve begins to open adjust that cylinders intake rocker arm.
3. To adjust: back off the intake rocker arm adjusting nut and remove any tension from the push rod. Wait a few minturs for teh hydraulic lifter to return to a neutral position.
4. Twist the intake push rod while tighten down the rocker arm. when you feel a slight resistance to the tightening of the push rod you are at "zero lash". Turn the adjusting nut down 1/2 to 3/4s of a turn from that point..the intake is now adjusted properally.
5. Continue to turn the engine watching the same intake valve/rocker arm you just adjusted. It will go full open then start to close. when it is almost closed stop and adjust the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder, loosen the adjusting nut on the exhaust rocker arm and follow the same steps has in 3 & 4 .
6. Both valves are adjusted on this cylinder and now you can move on to the next cylinder following the same procedure.
you may gets some valve train noise until the oil pressure stabilizes and the motor heats up to operating temp.
and incase you don't have studs I'll paste the pedestal instructions from my previous post.
This the method for Pedestal mount rockers:
1. Begin by placing the new pedestal inserts/mounts (flat side down) into the fulcrum guide (you can use your stock ones or, if your set came with new ones, you can use the ones supplied with your rocker arms), with a dab of grease or molly lube on the bottom of the inserts and the bottom of the guides, and set the fulcrum guide with mounts onto the cylinder head. Insert your allen head bolt through the rocker arm make sure the pivot inside the rocker arm has the flat side up - toward the bolt head and squeeze a little molly lube on the roller tip of the rocker. Then put the rocker/bolt assembly through the pedestal mount and fulcrum guide and screw the bolt into the cylinder head - snugging each rocker finger tight as you go (make sure the pushrod stays in the cup at the end of the rocker. Repeat for all 16 roller rocker arms.
2. Once all 16 rocker arms are installed to snug, turn the engine over, clockwise to top dead center , and check the number 1 cylinder intake and exhaust valves. They should both be closed (you should be able to spin the pushrod). If they are not both closed the crankshaft will need to be rotated 360* to TDC to correctly start the torque-ing procedure.
3. With the engine at TDC, torque the number 1 intake, number 1 exhaust, number 4 intake, number 3 exhaust, number 8 intake, and number 7 exhaust rocker arms to 15 lb.ft. with a torque wrench.
4.Once torqued the pushrods should still be able to be rotated. If they will not rotate, the shims will have to be implemented. Begin with the thinnest shim and repeat the above procedure until the pushrods can be rotated without any end play. ( if your push rods are to short you need longer push rods)
5. Once these valves have been checked and the rocker arms adjusted, continue to the next set by rotating the crankshaft 360* and torqueing the number 3 intake, number 2 exhaust, number 7 intake and number 6 exhaust rocker arms in the same manner as the previous set.
6. Complete the torquing process by rotating the crankshaft an additional 90* and torque the number 2 intake, number 4 exhaust, number 5 intake, number 5 exhaust, number 6 intake, and number 8 exhaust rocker arms as above.
I'm going to give it to you straight, this is the correct method for stud mounted rockers right here ( are you sure what you have ? )
this is it this is the method for stud mount rollers
1. pick a cylinder you are going to do the pre-load on, only do one cylinder at a time.
2. rotate the engine clockwise and watch the exhaust valve at the cylinder you are working on. When the exhaust valve begins to open adjust that cylinders intake rocker arm.
3. To adjust: back off the intake rocker arm adjusting nut and remove any tension from the push rod. Wait a few minturs for teh hydraulic lifter to return to a neutral position.
4. Twist the intake push rod while tighten down the rocker arm. when you feel a slight resistance to the tightening of the push rod you are at "zero lash". Turn the adjusting nut down 1/2 to 3/4s of a turn from that point..the intake is now adjusted properally.
5. Continue to turn the engine watching the same intake valve/rocker arm you just adjusted. It will go full open then start to close. when it is almost closed stop and adjust the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder, loosen the adjusting nut on the exhaust rocker arm and follow the same steps has in 3 & 4 .
6. Both valves are adjusted on this cylinder and now you can move on to the next cylinder following the same procedure.
you may gets some valve train noise until the oil pressure stabilizes and the motor heats up to operating temp.
and incase you don't have studs I'll paste the pedestal instructions from my previous post.
This the method for Pedestal mount rockers:
1. Begin by placing the new pedestal inserts/mounts (flat side down) into the fulcrum guide (you can use your stock ones or, if your set came with new ones, you can use the ones supplied with your rocker arms), with a dab of grease or molly lube on the bottom of the inserts and the bottom of the guides, and set the fulcrum guide with mounts onto the cylinder head. Insert your allen head bolt through the rocker arm make sure the pivot inside the rocker arm has the flat side up - toward the bolt head and squeeze a little molly lube on the roller tip of the rocker. Then put the rocker/bolt assembly through the pedestal mount and fulcrum guide and screw the bolt into the cylinder head - snugging each rocker finger tight as you go (make sure the pushrod stays in the cup at the end of the rocker. Repeat for all 16 roller rocker arms.
2. Once all 16 rocker arms are installed to snug, turn the engine over, clockwise to top dead center , and check the number 1 cylinder intake and exhaust valves. They should both be closed (you should be able to spin the pushrod). If they are not both closed the crankshaft will need to be rotated 360* to TDC to correctly start the torque-ing procedure.
3. With the engine at TDC, torque the number 1 intake, number 1 exhaust, number 4 intake, number 3 exhaust, number 8 intake, and number 7 exhaust rocker arms to 15 lb.ft. with a torque wrench.
4.Once torqued the pushrods should still be able to be rotated. If they will not rotate, the shims will have to be implemented. Begin with the thinnest shim and repeat the above procedure until the pushrods can be rotated without any end play. ( if your push rods are to short you need longer push rods)
5. Once these valves have been checked and the rocker arms adjusted, continue to the next set by rotating the crankshaft 360* and torqueing the number 3 intake, number 2 exhaust, number 7 intake and number 6 exhaust rocker arms in the same manner as the previous set.
6. Complete the torquing process by rotating the crankshaft an additional 90* and torque the number 2 intake, number 4 exhaust, number 5 intake, number 5 exhaust, number 6 intake, and number 8 exhaust rocker arms as above.
Again I apologize for the confusion. They are stud. Sometimes my brain gets glitches. Lol
In a few days I will update.
Just curious, if this still doesn't work then does that mean I have bad lifters?
10/2/12, 10:37 AM
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onebadvert it is possible but before you get yourself worried and thinking of other things. clear your mind and start over. I gave you the correct method..step by step...from the start you where all messed up so now we have atleast found a problem and have you on the correct road. I have a feeling you should be good.
Also a note: both of my methods are in our tech sticky that I started. lots of members forget to check out our resource.
Also a note: both of my methods are in our tech sticky that I started. lots of members forget to check out our resource.
Last edited by skunk21; 10/2/12 at 10:39 AM.
10/2/12, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by skunk21
onebadvert it is possible but before you get yourself worried and thinking of other things. clear your mind and start over. I gave you the correct method..step by step...from the start you where all messed up so now we have atleast found a problem and have you on the correct road. I have a feeling you should be good.
Also a note: both of my methods are in our tech sticky that I started. lots of members forget to check out our resource.
Also a note: both of my methods are in our tech sticky that I started. lots of members forget to check out our resource.
I didn't check the stickies on this one
: but I usually do as you have done a great job! I will let you know how it turns out.
10/2/12, 10:49 AM
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10/4/12, 03:35 PM
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i set just one set of rockers. i let it sit for 10 monutes without moving anything and it was loose again. should i keep going? imdont wanna keep going for no reason. i know the lifter is bleeding off.
10/4/12, 03:59 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by onebadvert
i set just one set of rockers. i let it sit for 10 monutes without moving anything and it was loose again. should i keep going? imdont wanna keep going for no reason. i know the lifter is bleeding off.
10/4/12, 04:05 PM
#18
Originally Posted by skunk21
3. To adjust: back off the intake rocker arm adjusting nut and remove any tension from the push rod. Wait a few minturs for teh hydraulic lifter to return to a neutral position.
.
10/4/12, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AlsCobra
I don't believe they should get loose again just sitting there. Pretty sure they are spring loaded even though oil pressure stiffens them up. Without reading the entire thread, are these new lifters? Sounds like you may need a new set if not. Skunks procedure is very thorough but you can always use that to get them close and then go old school and just set them with the engine running. I can set them like many others just by feel but no shame in setting them while running at all.
10/4/12, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by 2k7gtcs
Did you let them sit for a few minutes at each lifter before tightening the rocker?
I think that's in the instructions. Something about the oil and hydraulics resting.
I think that's in the instructions. Something about the oil and hydraulics resting.