64 Dagenham 6cyl convert to v8 questions
12/9/14, 06:44 PM
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64 Dagenham 6cyl convert to v8 questions
I’m assisting a car buddy with his 64 ½ and 65 Mustangs project.
The cars are about 5 miles from my house. So I am going by what he tells me.
The 64 ½ project car is a fastback with a stock 6 cylinder engine and a four speed Dageham transmission.
He describes the 6 cylinder as running but worn out. The transmission has no problems.
It has a floor shifter. My research shows that this transmission is synchronized in most gears except first and possibly reverse. Apparently second gear ratio is low enough to start moving in second. The high gear is direct. 1:1, not overdrive.
The 65 parts car is a v8 notch back coupe with a 302 (non original ) engine and C4 automatic transmission. Floor shift.
It has 5 lug bolt circles.
The 65 was purchased to upgrade the drivetrain on the 64. There is heavy body damage front and rear on the 65.
We live in Southern California and have access to low cost junkyards but only parts 1980 or newer.
He wants to use what he has as much as possible for budget reasons.
He would like to retain the 4 speed but is resigned to putting in the C4. I am opposed to that.
Questions: Assuming we try to stay manual transmission:
1. There appears to be no way to mate the v8 to the Daganham Transmission. No bell housing would fit the Ford small block and the Daganham. Is that correct?
2. It appears the Daganham bell housing will not fit a newer, more modern manual transmission, say from a Fox Body car. Is that correct?
3. Will the clutch foot pedal and linkage fit the bell housing for some other transmission?
4. What common, smooth shifting transmission would bolt in?
Assuming we go C4:
5. Will the shifter out of the automatic 65 fit the manual 64's floor? Are the floors the same automatic and manual? Anything else I need to know?
Other questions:
6. Is the v8’s rear axle stronger? We plan on doing a straight swap. Is the snout on the v8 axle longer? That is, does it require a shorter drive shaft?
7. Do you have to swap the spindles to swap the front drum brakes? Are v8 drums bigger in diameter and wider?
8. A 65 uses an alternator but a 64 uses a generator. Is there any reason to not use the 65’s alternator with the engine swap?
9. Is it considered sacrilege to change transmissions, engines, lugs, and generators on a 64 ½ fastback?
Keep in mind that both fastback and coupe are California desert cars with no rust and good interiors.
He would probably do it anyway. I can’t interest him in the idea of having the straight 6 simply rebuilt.
The cars are about 5 miles from my house. So I am going by what he tells me.
The 64 ½ project car is a fastback with a stock 6 cylinder engine and a four speed Dageham transmission.
He describes the 6 cylinder as running but worn out. The transmission has no problems.
It has a floor shifter. My research shows that this transmission is synchronized in most gears except first and possibly reverse. Apparently second gear ratio is low enough to start moving in second. The high gear is direct. 1:1, not overdrive.
The 65 parts car is a v8 notch back coupe with a 302 (non original ) engine and C4 automatic transmission. Floor shift.
It has 5 lug bolt circles.
The 65 was purchased to upgrade the drivetrain on the 64. There is heavy body damage front and rear on the 65.
We live in Southern California and have access to low cost junkyards but only parts 1980 or newer.
He wants to use what he has as much as possible for budget reasons.
He would like to retain the 4 speed but is resigned to putting in the C4. I am opposed to that.
Questions: Assuming we try to stay manual transmission:
1. There appears to be no way to mate the v8 to the Daganham Transmission. No bell housing would fit the Ford small block and the Daganham. Is that correct?
2. It appears the Daganham bell housing will not fit a newer, more modern manual transmission, say from a Fox Body car. Is that correct?
3. Will the clutch foot pedal and linkage fit the bell housing for some other transmission?
4. What common, smooth shifting transmission would bolt in?
Assuming we go C4:
5. Will the shifter out of the automatic 65 fit the manual 64's floor? Are the floors the same automatic and manual? Anything else I need to know?
Other questions:
6. Is the v8’s rear axle stronger? We plan on doing a straight swap. Is the snout on the v8 axle longer? That is, does it require a shorter drive shaft?
7. Do you have to swap the spindles to swap the front drum brakes? Are v8 drums bigger in diameter and wider?
8. A 65 uses an alternator but a 64 uses a generator. Is there any reason to not use the 65’s alternator with the engine swap?
9. Is it considered sacrilege to change transmissions, engines, lugs, and generators on a 64 ½ fastback?
Keep in mind that both fastback and coupe are California desert cars with no rust and good interiors.
He would probably do it anyway. I can’t interest him in the idea of having the straight 6 simply rebuilt.
12/9/14, 09:48 PM
#2
Legacy TMS Member
1) Correct, nobody made one. It is a 6 cylinder trans. You don't really want to use it behind the 302.
2) Also correct. BUT, if you're going 302, you could get the trans AND bell housing, and it'll work. 302s are, for the most part 302s. So get a T5 outta a Fox and be done with it.
You'll need to also consider the trans mount, and driveshaft. You'd want to convert the clutch linkage to a cable type. There are ready made kits and/or parts for this sort of thing, it's been done plenty of times. CJ Pony has a whole kit with the trans for $3500, just bolt it all in, for example.
3) You'll not want to use it. See 2). Save the pedal, but it'll be modified to work with the rest of the kit.
4) World Class T5. Or even an 80s-90s V8 AOD will go in there too. NOT the EAOD, although you *could*, I suppose. I wouldn't. Just the regular AOD. But it's not a manual, now is it?
5) There may be a little bit of modding... maybe not. I don't have the answer, to be honest. But you can easily find that out, just take them apart and see.
6) Yes. If you go v8, you need to take all the v8 parts. Axle's one of them.
7) Yes. Yes. But you'd really want to get discs.
8) There is none. Use the alternator.
9) There's no factory onion skins on any of the 64.5-66 Mustangs, thanks to the Rotunda fire, so you can dang near do whatever you want to it and nobody will bat an eye. It's not like original numbers Vettes or anything. The only reason you would want to go original is if there was documentation, and/or it would increase the value.
The fact that it's a good *fastback* is a hell of a thing. That alone makes the car worth more. It is definitely the more desireable restoration project than the coupe. But beyond that one thing... I don't know if there's any reason not to mod the heck out of it.
By the way, though... that's not a '64 1/2 fastback. There were no such things. It is probably a '65 though. Just an FYI. Maybe an early one, but still. Production numbers for any Mustang Fastbacks start in '65.
But if it IS an actual, rare, one off '64.5... and it hasn't been previously molested/modified... Leave. It. Alone. Get it appraised by a known decent Mustang appraiser, because if true, your friend has found a true RARITY. One that shouldn't exist, according to the books.
2) Also correct. BUT, if you're going 302, you could get the trans AND bell housing, and it'll work. 302s are, for the most part 302s. So get a T5 outta a Fox and be done with it.
You'll need to also consider the trans mount, and driveshaft. You'd want to convert the clutch linkage to a cable type. There are ready made kits and/or parts for this sort of thing, it's been done plenty of times. CJ Pony has a whole kit with the trans for $3500, just bolt it all in, for example.3) You'll not want to use it. See 2). Save the pedal, but it'll be modified to work with the rest of the kit.
4) World Class T5. Or even an 80s-90s V8 AOD will go in there too. NOT the EAOD, although you *could*, I suppose. I wouldn't. Just the regular AOD. But it's not a manual, now is it?
5) There may be a little bit of modding... maybe not. I don't have the answer, to be honest. But you can easily find that out, just take them apart and see.
6) Yes. If you go v8, you need to take all the v8 parts. Axle's one of them.
7) Yes. Yes. But you'd really want to get discs.
8) There is none. Use the alternator.
9) There's no factory onion skins on any of the 64.5-66 Mustangs, thanks to the Rotunda fire, so you can dang near do whatever you want to it and nobody will bat an eye. It's not like original numbers Vettes or anything. The only reason you would want to go original is if there was documentation, and/or it would increase the value.
The fact that it's a good *fastback* is a hell of a thing. That alone makes the car worth more. It is definitely the more desireable restoration project than the coupe. But beyond that one thing... I don't know if there's any reason not to mod the heck out of it.
By the way, though... that's not a '64 1/2 fastback. There were no such things. It is probably a '65 though. Just an FYI. Maybe an early one, but still. Production numbers for any Mustang Fastbacks start in '65.
But if it IS an actual, rare, one off '64.5... and it hasn't been previously molested/modified... Leave. It. Alone. Get it appraised by a known decent Mustang appraiser, because if true, your friend has found a true RARITY. One that shouldn't exist, according to the books.
Last edited by houtex; 12/9/14 at 09:53 PM.
12/10/14, 07:52 AM
#4
Cobra Member
I also say grab a t5. Could find a newer one really cheap as they started putting them in v6 mustangs also in 94' I think.
If you go to new though they switched the speedo over from mechanical to electronic. I'm not sure what year they made that switch, but I know that by 99-04 the t5 had an electronic speedo.
Good luck with the project, let us know how it all goes.
If you go to new though they switched the speedo over from mechanical to electronic. I'm not sure what year they made that switch, but I know that by 99-04 the t5 had an electronic speedo.
Good luck with the project, let us know how it all goes.
12/10/14, 06:40 PM
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Thanks for the fast and excellent responses.
I guess I should have also asked if the front engine compartment is the same between the six and 8's. The K member as it is called in Mopar. Will the v8 and it's motor mounts bolt right to the six cylinder cars subframe?
I like the T5 idea, (I have a AMC Javelin project with similar issues) but those kits are super expensive. I was wondering if everything needed could be found out of a Fox bodied Mustang. That is junkyard parts.
I mean, many early Mustangs were four speeds (toploaders and borg warners?) so why should it be so hard/expensive?
Good tip about the steering. Which parts are we talking about? Tie rods? Control arms? I suppose coil springs.
I Wikiepedia'd the Rotunda Fire. It was before the Mustang was produced. Also apparently a lot of records were saved.
I guess I should have also asked if the front engine compartment is the same between the six and 8's. The K member as it is called in Mopar. Will the v8 and it's motor mounts bolt right to the six cylinder cars subframe?
I like the T5 idea, (I have a AMC Javelin project with similar issues) but those kits are super expensive. I was wondering if everything needed could be found out of a Fox bodied Mustang. That is junkyard parts.
I mean, many early Mustangs were four speeds (toploaders and borg warners?) so why should it be so hard/expensive?
Good tip about the steering. Which parts are we talking about? Tie rods? Control arms? I suppose coil springs.
I Wikiepedia'd the Rotunda Fire. It was before the Mustang was produced. Also apparently a lot of records were saved.
12/10/14, 08:54 PM
#6
Legacy TMS Member
Taken by paragraphs...
1) The engine compartment and K member are the same. The motor mounts can be swapped with the engine, or replaced with new ones for a '65-66 289.
2) http://www.cjponyparts.com/t5-transm...1966/p/T5CK15/
That is a complete kit minus the transmission. I don't think $1700 is a bad price considering it's a bolt and go situation. All you need supply is the T5 and a clutch pedal. Just as a suggestion. Other kits out there, some with less, some with the trans.
Bear in mind that you have to have a correct bell housing, clutch flywheel, as well as driveshaft, because you won't get that anywhere else. You might can get away with fabricating/figuring it out yourself, but... this is $1700 and elbow grease easy, compared to all that huey. Time is money, and in this case the money is worth the time/effort saved in otherwise figuring it out. Heck, I don't think the kit with the trans is a bad deal, really, and it's just plug it in and go.
http://www.cjponyparts.com/t5-transm...1966/p/T5CK10/
But you can try the other way. Don't let me stop ya. Have fun with it! 
3) All of the steering, except maybe the worm gear on the rail. Outer tie rods, sleeves, inner rods, drag link, pitman arm, steering arm. As well as the springs, because heavier engine. Although you might have fun getting those out... be careful. I'm betting you beat the outer tie rods to smithereens and wind up replacin' those. Just a guess though.
You'll want the 5 lug setup all way 'round, because of the axle you need to grab, and the v8 leaf springs too.
The 5 lug wheels for the front means the spindles and brakes move too, but you should look into the disc conversion kits, or getting 70s-80s Granada/Monarch/Versaille front disc brakes. It'll be way better than the drums.
And you might also look into adding a power brake booster, and a proportioning valve, so as to get the best stopping you can. The rear drums are ok, though, but if you want, you can get the Versaille rear disc brakes or a conversion kit back there too.
Re: Rotunda. Correct, I got my wires crossed a while back I guess. But it was a fire that destroyed the records: http://www.thehenryford.org/research...onRecords.aspx
And while WHICH of the fires that affected Ford is in question, the same result is in effect: No (or very few) original records exist on the 64.5-66 Mustangs, unless it came with the car and was proven factual. Unless someone's lyin' about them... or there's another place that has them.. I dunno.
Whatever. Doesn't really matter, you can do what you want with the thing, it's just a car, after all! Go nuts! Have fun with the car, mod the heck outta it, if that's what you want to do.
Although, if it were me... I'd restore the car back to it's original status... or original if it were a production V8 one anyway... and sell it. Because it should make a pretty decent chunk of change in original form. Especially if the back seat area is done correctly.
THEN with that money, I'd restore the coupe and have a HELL of a lot of fun with that one.
1) The engine compartment and K member are the same. The motor mounts can be swapped with the engine, or replaced with new ones for a '65-66 289.
2) http://www.cjponyparts.com/t5-transm...1966/p/T5CK15/
That is a complete kit minus the transmission. I don't think $1700 is a bad price considering it's a bolt and go situation. All you need supply is the T5 and a clutch pedal. Just as a suggestion. Other kits out there, some with less, some with the trans.
Bear in mind that you have to have a correct bell housing, clutch flywheel, as well as driveshaft, because you won't get that anywhere else. You might can get away with fabricating/figuring it out yourself, but... this is $1700 and elbow grease easy, compared to all that huey. Time is money, and in this case the money is worth the time/effort saved in otherwise figuring it out. Heck, I don't think the kit with the trans is a bad deal, really, and it's just plug it in and go.
http://www.cjponyparts.com/t5-transm...1966/p/T5CK10/
But you can try the other way. Don't let me stop ya.
Have fun with it! 3) All of the steering, except maybe the worm gear on the rail. Outer tie rods, sleeves, inner rods, drag link, pitman arm, steering arm. As well as the springs, because heavier engine. Although you might have fun getting those out... be careful. I'm betting you beat the outer tie rods to smithereens and wind up replacin' those. Just a guess though.
You'll want the 5 lug setup all way 'round, because of the axle you need to grab, and the v8 leaf springs too.
The 5 lug wheels for the front means the spindles and brakes move too, but you should look into the disc conversion kits, or getting 70s-80s Granada/Monarch/Versaille front disc brakes. It'll be way better than the drums.
And you might also look into adding a power brake booster, and a proportioning valve, so as to get the best stopping you can. The rear drums are ok, though, but if you want, you can get the Versaille rear disc brakes or a conversion kit back there too.
Re: Rotunda. Correct, I got my wires crossed a while back I guess. But it was a fire that destroyed the records: http://www.thehenryford.org/research...onRecords.aspx
And while WHICH of the fires that affected Ford is in question, the same result is in effect: No (or very few) original records exist on the 64.5-66 Mustangs, unless it came with the car and was proven factual. Unless someone's lyin' about them... or there's another place that has them.. I dunno.
Whatever. Doesn't really matter, you can do what you want with the thing, it's just a car, after all! Go nuts! Have fun with the car, mod the heck outta it, if that's what you want to do.
Although, if it were me... I'd restore the car back to it's original status... or original if it were a production V8 one anyway... and sell it. Because it should make a pretty decent chunk of change in original form. Especially if the back seat area is done correctly.
THEN with that money, I'd restore the coupe and have a HELL of a lot of fun with that one.
Last edited by houtex; 12/10/14 at 09:00 PM.
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