Watts link: what, why, and who?
1/7/15, 02:42 PM
#81
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Thanks for the reality check, ConeBoss.
So my question is this- is there an objective performance benefit to adding a Watts Link or is this mostly a driver perception mod?
I recall a similar question when installing sway bars on my first Miata almost 15 years ago...where there may be lap time improvements from better sense of body control and a higher driver confidence, there was technically a loss of overall grip...
...After reading your thoughts, I wonder if this may be a similar kind of thing.
So my question is this- is there an objective performance benefit to adding a Watts Link or is this mostly a driver perception mod?
I recall a similar question when installing sway bars on my first Miata almost 15 years ago...where there may be lap time improvements from better sense of body control and a higher driver confidence, there was technically a loss of overall grip...
...After reading your thoughts, I wonder if this may be a similar kind of thing.
Make no mistake the addition of a Watts Link will improve the handling capabilities of the car. But the improvement will be less noticeable unless you are trying to drive the wheels off.
I think of a Watts link as the full solution that the adjustable panhard bar tries to solve. Which is making sure your rear axle moves up and down with no side to side motion. Wikipedia does a decent job explaining.
Since my post some good insight on why was posted. I would just point out that no matter what you will not get IRS like performance from a solid rear axle.
1/28/15, 03:02 PM
#82
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If price was not a factor, Steeda and Fays2, which one would most select for the daily driver and/or to start road racing as a novice? Are there any rear sway bars that will not work for either one due to their design?
1/28/15, 07:15 PM
#83
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For a daily driver the Steeda design may be quieter. Though after 4000 miles with my Fays2 I have no noise. The key with the Fays2 is proper alignment of the components.
I would also say the Watts Link made for a nicer car for daily driver with the poor roads in my part of the country.
I installed mine myself on jack stands and ramps.
Not sure about other sways but I have the Hellwig/Strano type and clearance is fine.
I would also say the Watts Link made for a nicer car for daily driver with the poor roads in my part of the country.
I installed mine myself on jack stands and ramps.
Not sure about other sways but I have the Hellwig/Strano type and clearance is fine.
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1/29/15, 02:36 PM
#84
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Thanks for the reply. Anyone know what rear sway bars work for either? My research shows the stock one will work for both and Steeda's is the only aftermarket one which fits their unit. The Fays2 unit appears to have more options. Could this be correct?
1/29/15, 06:41 PM
#85
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I forgot to note that I was using the stock rear sway with the Fays2 before the Strano/Hellwig. Both fit.
FYI. I did find the Hellwig bar was too tight a fit with the Ford Racing Relocation brackets. It worked but changing the adjustment hole setting the bracket interfered. I did not like the relocation brackets and removed them.
FYI. I did find the Hellwig bar was too tight a fit with the Ford Racing Relocation brackets. It worked but changing the adjustment hole setting the bracket interfered. I did not like the relocation brackets and removed them.
1/29/15, 09:09 PM
#86
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So, a Watts link while I agree definitely helps with bumps does not solve the problem. Those wheels are still tied together by the axle and the unsettling effect that can have on the rear of the car while corning cannot be negated by a watts link. What you get is less side to side axle movement which helps the car transfer weight and take a set faster...which could lead to the perception that your rear is more planted/stable.
Reality is that the weight transfer happened faster and when you went over that bump it had less unsettling effect since weight was already there. Having driven my car with an without watts link over the same bumpy surface at 9/10ths I can tell you for a fact the rear end WILL still jump around.
IMO
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2/3/15, 02:55 PM
#88
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cdynaco;
It's more than just perception - if you let the suspension work. But of course many of you tighten up the suspension too far with too little sidewall. So there is very little "give". And then at the slightest hint/imagined "twitch", let off the throttle out of lack of confidence and then the entire "set" is undone... sometimes with disastrous results as your asz end greets you.
Of course it's more than perception. But, you sorta missed the point.
Here is the scenario:
Solid axle in a high speed sweeper vs. IRS in high speed sweeper. Car encounters nasty bump mid corner. IRS car soaks bump better and car stays more composed/controllable. Solid axle cars rear end just left the ground mid corner as you go over a nasty bump and skips 4" off line. As a result badness can ensue.
Now, because you had a watts link the car will stabilize faster from a weight transfer standpoint as you enter the corner but it really doesn't help the suspension deal with that bump too much since its already loaded.
So where the weight transfer speed helps. Lets say your driving through a high speed transition left to right and encounter a nasty bump with the outside rear wheel. The car w/o watts link is going to experience more unsettling repercussion than that watts link equipped car. However just because it has Watts link and perhaps already transferred weight doesn't mean it will not experience ill effect like a IRS equipped car might.
So? The weight transfer is key, as is maintaining enough throttle in the curve so as to keep enough forward traction to maintain "stance in the curve" regardless of a perceived "skip".
Your statement about throttle control I would agree is valid but may not matter in these scenarios. In fact if it was bad enough the to cause the wheel looses traction for a moment, depending on the slip angle you land at and whether or not you have fast enough hands to correct too much throttle may become your enemy.
I would say the one's who really need that advice are the inexperienced drivers who imagine that IRS is a cure all for bad driving, or that IRS can never skip.
I would assume anyone on this forum may need this advice if they are asking the question, so I gave it.
It's more than just perception - if you let the suspension work. But of course many of you tighten up the suspension too far with too little sidewall. So there is very little "give". And then at the slightest hint/imagined "twitch", let off the throttle out of lack of confidence and then the entire "set" is undone... sometimes with disastrous results as your asz end greets you.
Of course it's more than perception. But, you sorta missed the point.
Here is the scenario:
Solid axle in a high speed sweeper vs. IRS in high speed sweeper. Car encounters nasty bump mid corner. IRS car soaks bump better and car stays more composed/controllable. Solid axle cars rear end just left the ground mid corner as you go over a nasty bump and skips 4" off line. As a result badness can ensue.
Now, because you had a watts link the car will stabilize faster from a weight transfer standpoint as you enter the corner but it really doesn't help the suspension deal with that bump too much since its already loaded.
So where the weight transfer speed helps. Lets say your driving through a high speed transition left to right and encounter a nasty bump with the outside rear wheel. The car w/o watts link is going to experience more unsettling repercussion than that watts link equipped car. However just because it has Watts link and perhaps already transferred weight doesn't mean it will not experience ill effect like a IRS equipped car might.
So? The weight transfer is key, as is maintaining enough throttle in the curve so as to keep enough forward traction to maintain "stance in the curve" regardless of a perceived "skip".
Your statement about throttle control I would agree is valid but may not matter in these scenarios. In fact if it was bad enough the to cause the wheel looses traction for a moment, depending on the slip angle you land at and whether or not you have fast enough hands to correct too much throttle may become your enemy.
I would say the one's who really need that advice are the inexperienced drivers who imagine that IRS is a cure all for bad driving, or that IRS can never skip.
I would assume anyone on this forum may need this advice if they are asking the question, so I gave it.
2/3/15, 09:00 PM
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Of course it's more than perception. But, you sorta missed the point.
Here is the scenario:
Solid axle in a high speed sweeper vs. IRS in high speed sweeper. Car encounters nasty bump mid corner. IRS car soaks bump better and car stays more composed/controllable. Solid axle cars rear end just left the ground mid corner as you go over a nasty bump and skips 4" off line. As a result badness can ensue.
Here is the scenario:
Solid axle in a high speed sweeper vs. IRS in high speed sweeper. Car encounters nasty bump mid corner. IRS car soaks bump better and car stays more composed/controllable. Solid axle cars rear end just left the ground mid corner as you go over a nasty bump and skips 4" off line. As a result badness can ensue.
But nobody ever proves that. Show me the picture mid curve. Prove its that big of a difference. Because it isn't.If your SRA suspension isn't tight as a drum skin, it will absorb that perceived "skip", and providing you still have the weight transfer stance you had when you entered the curve, your forward drive provides your traction. (Maintain some forward acceleration-don't let off!! Brake more before the turn if necessary [like down a mountainside]).
With Traction Lock, one side of the diff remains firmly planted with 100% traction, and the potential lighter side of the diff has the suspension immediately responding and resuming full traction in an instant (now both wheels @ 100%), and the forward drive from your horsepower continues your line. Most the time very little reaction (if any) of the steering wheel is required. Let the throttle and the suspension do their work.
But sadly, many are woefully inexperienced and uneducated of how their car is actually handling (vs theory), they panic at a measly bump, and like I said let off of acceleration which is the complete backwards response. Now their much lighter rear end swings around, they lose the curve, and then they get on a forum and cry how bad SRA is.
They need to practice on snow and ice in a big parking lot.
Your statement about throttle control I would agree is valid but may not matter in these scenarios. In fact if it was bad enough the to cause the wheel looses traction for a moment, depending on the slip angle you land at and whether or not you have fast enough hands to correct too much throttle may become your enemy.
Yes - that's why I have NOT said "floor it". But you do need some forward acceleration. The practice on snow and ice will teach the finesse of the throttle.
Last edited by cdynaco; 2/3/15 at 09:07 PM.
2/4/15, 06:45 AM
#90
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OK, so after the last few post, on a GT with Brembo or Track Pack suspension, which would be more productive or counter productive for driving twisty 2 lane roads, a Watts link or stiffer lowering springs, sway bars, and adjustable struts and shocks? Would it be worth combining the 2, or would they be working against each other?
2/4/15, 09:24 AM
#91
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OK, so after the last few post, on a GT with Brembo or Track Pack suspension, which would be more productive or counter productive for driving twisty 2 lane roads, a Watts link or stiffer lowering springs, sway bars, and adjustable struts and shocks? Would it be worth combining the 2, or would they be working against each other?
>Also, I always make sure I'm in the proper gear to keep me in the power band so I also have good control over the weight transfer through the curve. You should be well balanced this way, with no understeer and the SRA responds well to the road.
Then adjustable struts and shocks if you feel you want firmer damping & rebound action (also reduces body roll), and try your favorite roads several times with different settings.
Some do adj struts and shocks first and then Watts, but my opinion is to improve the geometry first.
Unless you want to lower for appearance, lowering/stiffer springs would be last on my list because that's were you lose suspension travel and some "give". Even the F1 guys comment how they have to soften the suspension on some tracks because they are rougher, and the suspension can't "work" if there isn't enough give to keep the traction they want.
Practice safely.
Last edited by cdynaco; 2/4/15 at 09:29 AM.
2/4/15, 10:31 AM
#92
No I got it - but you and others assume the SRA "skipped 4 inches" and the IRS "skipped 0 inches". But nobody ever proves that. Show me the picture mid curve. Prove its that big of a difference. Because it isn't.
If your SRA suspension isn't tight as a drum skin, it will absorb that perceived "skip", and providing you still have the weight transfer stance you had when you entered the curve, your forward drive provides your traction. (Maintain some forward acceleration-don't let off!! Brake more before the turn if necessary [like down a mountainside]).
With Traction Lock, one side of the diff remains firmly planted with 100% traction, and the potential lighter side of the diff has the suspension immediately responding and resuming full traction in an instant (now both wheels @ 100%), and the forward drive from your horsepower continues your line. Most the time very little reaction (if any) of the steering wheel is required. Let the throttle and the suspension do their work.
But sadly, many are woefully inexperienced and uneducated of how their car is actually handling (vs theory), they panic at a measly bump, and like I said let off of acceleration which is the complete backwards response. Now their much lighter rear end swings around, they lose the curve, and then they get on a forum and cry how bad SRA is.
They need to practice on snow and ice in a big parking lot.
You are assuming one wheel becoming slightly lighter for a moment causes both wheels to lose traction and now the entire rear end "slips" and "lands". I disagree. I don't drive parking lot cones, I drive two lane uneven bumpy twisties, and I am speaking as to how my car responds, and how my other SRA's on these same roads have responded.
Yes - that's why I have NOT said "floor it". But you do need some forward acceleration. The practice on snow and ice will teach the finesse of the throttle.
You will be amazed how many people here think IRS is a magic bullet and that now they don't have to actually learn principles of driving their machine. Which is why I responded.
But nobody ever proves that. Show me the picture mid curve. Prove its that big of a difference. Because it isn't.If your SRA suspension isn't tight as a drum skin, it will absorb that perceived "skip", and providing you still have the weight transfer stance you had when you entered the curve, your forward drive provides your traction. (Maintain some forward acceleration-don't let off!! Brake more before the turn if necessary [like down a mountainside]).
With Traction Lock, one side of the diff remains firmly planted with 100% traction, and the potential lighter side of the diff has the suspension immediately responding and resuming full traction in an instant (now both wheels @ 100%), and the forward drive from your horsepower continues your line. Most the time very little reaction (if any) of the steering wheel is required. Let the throttle and the suspension do their work.
But sadly, many are woefully inexperienced and uneducated of how their car is actually handling (vs theory), they panic at a measly bump, and like I said let off of acceleration which is the complete backwards response. Now their much lighter rear end swings around, they lose the curve, and then they get on a forum and cry how bad SRA is.
They need to practice on snow and ice in a big parking lot.
You are assuming one wheel becoming slightly lighter for a moment causes both wheels to lose traction and now the entire rear end "slips" and "lands". I disagree. I don't drive parking lot cones, I drive two lane uneven bumpy twisties, and I am speaking as to how my car responds, and how my other SRA's on these same roads have responded.
Yes - that's why I have NOT said "floor it". But you do need some forward acceleration. The practice on snow and ice will teach the finesse of the throttle.
You will be amazed how many people here think IRS is a magic bullet and that now they don't have to actually learn principles of driving their machine. Which is why I responded.
You nailed it.Do many people and I am not sure why. Think IRS is the key to everything. I will Take any of my SRA cars and put them up against any IRS and you will only see my Rear end of my car.. Or Truck...
It only helps for people that can not drive... Just like you said.
The best performance upgrade to any car is the Driver getting training and practice.
2/4/15, 02:39 PM
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cdynaco - Look I'm not trying to discuss what is the right driver reaction to deal with weakness of SRA vs. IRS in sub prime handling conditions. I'm as big a supporter in driver mod as anyone. The point of this thread was pro's and con's of Watts link and comparison to IRS.
You can be a troll and put words in my mouth and nit pick that I didn't say the IRS skipped or didn't skip. I'm just trying to have a friendly conversation. It's great that you have a experience driving on twisty roads. But don't be naïve by pretending that the asphalt on those roads is significantly different than the asphalt in a parking lot, track etc. You can & will encounter off camber, on camber, bumpy and/or cracked surface in any of these places.
Regarding the loaded wheel becoming light inducing lack of traction in both wheels. If you don't agree, you have not experienced it, it's possible I assure you. I would invite you to go play with the limits of traction in a safe environment, like auto cross.
I will end with something we both agree...that IRS is not a magic bullet.
You can be a troll and put words in my mouth and nit pick that I didn't say the IRS skipped or didn't skip. I'm just trying to have a friendly conversation. It's great that you have a experience driving on twisty roads. But don't be naïve by pretending that the asphalt on those roads is significantly different than the asphalt in a parking lot, track etc. You can & will encounter off camber, on camber, bumpy and/or cracked surface in any of these places.
Regarding the loaded wheel becoming light inducing lack of traction in both wheels. If you don't agree, you have not experienced it, it's possible I assure you. I would invite you to go play with the limits of traction in a safe environment, like auto cross.
I will end with something we both agree...that IRS is not a magic bullet.
2/4/15, 03:14 PM
#94
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Does anyone have any thoughts / opinions / ideas on BMR's watts unit for possible release in the near future? Info can be found on svt in the '11-14 section. Looks like a great price point and the rest of their products get great reviews.
Last edited by creedog; 2/4/15 at 05:16 PM.
2/4/15, 04:39 PM
#95
I think a lot of traction issues are the type of Differential you have. They all react differently to different situations. Then through in the Suspension tires and Driving style and it is anyone's guise how it will react. Time in the drivers seat will help allot.
One of the issue you get with these forums is when you read these things you do not understand the tone. This is a great topic hopefully some will learn from all of the experience here.
One of the issue you get with these forums is when you read these things you do not understand the tone. This is a great topic hopefully some will learn from all of the experience here.
Last edited by Jazzman442; 2/4/15 at 04:40 PM.
2/4/15, 05:47 PM
#96
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cdynaco - Look I'm not trying to discuss what is the right driver reaction to deal with weakness of SRA vs. IRS in sub prime handling conditions. I'm as big a supporter in driver mod as anyone. The point of this thread was pro's and con's of Watts link and comparison to IRS. You can be a troll and put words in my mouth and nit pick that I didn't say the IRS skipped or didn't skip. I'm just trying to have a friendly conversation. It's great that you have a experience driving on twisty roads. But don't be naïve by pretending that the asphalt on those roads is significantly different than the asphalt in a parking lot, track etc. You can & will encounter off camber, on camber, bumpy and/or cracked surface in any of these places. Regarding the loaded wheel becoming light inducing lack of traction in both wheels. If you don't agree, you have not experienced it, it's possible I assure you. I would invite you to go play with the limits of traction in a safe environment, like auto cross. I will end with something we both agree...that IRS is not a magic bullet.
Last edited by Mr. V; 2/4/15 at 05:52 PM.
2/4/15, 06:36 PM
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cdynaco - Look I'm not trying to discuss what is the right driver reaction to deal with weakness of SRA vs. IRS in sub prime handling conditions. I'm as big a supporter in driver mod as anyone. The point of this thread was pro's and con's of Watts link and comparison to IRS.
You can be a troll and put words in my mouth and nit pick that I didn't say the IRS skipped or didn't skip. I'm just trying to have a friendly conversation. It's great that you have a experience driving on twisty roads. But don't be naïve by pretending that the asphalt on those roads is significantly different than the asphalt in a parking lot, track etc. You can & will encounter off camber, on camber, bumpy and/or cracked surface in any of these places.
Regarding the loaded wheel becoming light inducing lack of traction in both wheels. If you don't agree, you have not experienced it, it's possible I assure you. I would invite you to go play with the limits of traction in a safe environment, like auto cross.
I will end with something we both agree...that IRS is not a magic bullet.
You can be a troll and put words in my mouth and nit pick that I didn't say the IRS skipped or didn't skip. I'm just trying to have a friendly conversation. It's great that you have a experience driving on twisty roads. But don't be naïve by pretending that the asphalt on those roads is significantly different than the asphalt in a parking lot, track etc. You can & will encounter off camber, on camber, bumpy and/or cracked surface in any of these places.
Regarding the loaded wheel becoming light inducing lack of traction in both wheels. If you don't agree, you have not experienced it, it's possible I assure you. I would invite you to go play with the limits of traction in a safe environment, like auto cross.
I will end with something we both agree...that IRS is not a magic bullet.
I thought you and I were having a discussion? That you countered some of my points, and I countered some of your points. How does that make me a troll suddenly?? And I clearly stated it was "my opinion" - and based on what I have... experienced.
I also asked you to prove some of your points, but rather than attempt to do that, you take a swipe with your cute troll comment when I dared post in this thread.
I tend to ignore everything cdynaco posts. It simplifies my day and reduces my annoyance. I do not believe he is a capable of friendly and informative discussion. He seems very combative. I have appreciated the input you, Cone Boss, have brought to the thread. Thank you for sharing your experiences.
And you're even funnier that rather than add to the thread, you attack me. And apparently you only want one side of the story. On a forum. Where people discuss things.
That you - and coneboss - somehow took it as unfriendly or combative - when I purposely added several emoticons incl "cheers" - demonstrates the large chip on your shoulders if anyone dares offer a different point of view - based on their personal driving experience over many years (just like coneboss did).
Read it how you may, I can't control your thought process or your not liking someone writing matter of fact. That I was countering some worn out points that coneboss felt necessary to repeat, does not make me unfriendly or combative, and I neither wrote it nor meant it that way. You just chose to read it that way.
Last edited by cdynaco; 2/4/15 at 06:41 PM.
2/4/15, 06:53 PM
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MrV and I have even discussed this before but he continues to choose to read me wrong and cries about it.My doctor and I talk direct. My business associates and I talk direct. My friends talk direct. Many people talk direct rather than ***** around the core subject with teenage fluff that usually doesn't flesh out the issue. But of course in person it is different than someone reading words on a screen.
Regardless, why not discuss the points rather than the writing style?
My points are accurate, they are based on actual experience with different vehicles compared on specific roads, and I included proof that even the best IRS does not stay planted 100% of the time, and that even F1 has to soften suspension on rougher tracks so as to maintain... traction and control.
And I added that IMO, a Watts improves the geometry for SRA and I believe that mod should be done prior to dampers or stiffer lowering springs.
If you disagree, say so, and say why. Rather than mealy mouth about my writing style. Because attacking me will neither drive me from the forum, stop me from posting, or change how I write after this many years in life.
Last edited by cdynaco; 2/4/15 at 07:07 PM.
2/5/15, 07:25 AM
#100
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I appreciate the input by everyone here on the Watts link. When I bought my Mustang all I knew about the suspension was what Ford told me on their web site, so I got the best suspension I could afford and would fit my needs. It happened to be the Brembo package. Although it was a little different handling wise, I figured after I got used to it. When I went around a curve for the first time in the Mustang that I have taken a thousand times in other cars and trucks, and the rear end felt like it left the ground and jumped to the right (left hand curve) after going over a bump, I became concerned.
Now after some research and some miles on the Mustang I feel better, but I would still like to improve some suspension issues. A Watts link first got my attention as I learned what it's function was, but the Ford adjustable racing suspension package looks appealing too. Since I can't afford both at once, I was wondering which would give me the most benefit and take care of that hopping rear end the best.
I'd like to thank cdynaco for his advice. It's kind of what I thought too, but I'm still open to other opinions.
Now after some research and some miles on the Mustang I feel better, but I would still like to improve some suspension issues. A Watts link first got my attention as I learned what it's function was, but the Ford adjustable racing suspension package looks appealing too. Since I can't afford both at once, I was wondering which would give me the most benefit and take care of that hopping rear end the best.
I'd like to thank cdynaco for his advice. It's kind of what I thought too, but I'm still open to other opinions.