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Old 5/14/11, 07:58 AM
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Fuel needs

I haven’t seen this directly answered anywhere, so I wanted opinions on fuel. I was under the impression that the Boss needed Premium gas. After reading through the owners manual though, it seems like regular 87 is good enough. Any thoughts on this? Is 87 good enough for putzing around town? I’m a bit surprised that 87 would be good enough for the high compression 5ls……
Old 5/14/11, 08:18 AM
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87 is fine. I had the same discussion with the dealer and their Service Manager stated that the only Mustang that requires premium is the GT500. I have had 3 tanks of gas all regular in mine and the performance and mileage has been great. I was like you based on car reviews I believed it required premium. Nice surprise.
Old 5/14/11, 08:49 AM
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I'll be running 91 octane all the time here in CA. I want maximum smiles from my fun pedal.
Old 5/14/11, 09:40 AM
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Premium will give you a little more power
Old 5/14/11, 12:25 PM
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I've heard that 91 octane or higher is recommended for the TracKey, once that is out.
Old 5/14/11, 02:39 PM
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The original manual called for higher octane that was revised to 87 on second printing. I normally do not use "super" in any car I drive outside of my older Mustang 351 and Boss. Posted this on the other site, may or may not be 100% correct but it is close:

The higher the octane the more stable the burning temp under higher compression. That is why it is only recommending in higher compression engines and engines with turbo/SC's. I don't use higher octane in the F150 and it was not designed for it. It would be a waste of money and can also be bad to run when the car was not designed for it.

Today's engines are very different with knock sensors and more. One problem years ago was carbon build up on a piston top. That would heat up and if a lower octane gas was used the heated carbon would set it off causing pre-detonation. Lower octane gas burns better then higher octane. This would not only cause a power loss by having it fire before the piston was at the top of the power stroke but could harm the engine for obvious reason. This is not something I would worry about with the Boss, the octane would be only of concern because of compression ratio and how a tune will effect timing.

Do a search on this, there is a ton of info out there. This is just one site that explains it well.

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/gas...ane-myths.html
In the world of automobiles, it is tempting to associate higher numbers with higher quality. After all, more horsepower and more miles per gallon are a better thing, which feeds into our perception that more impressive octane ratings also equal higher performance. Gasoline companies understand this mentality and do nothing to dissuade drivers from it, labeling 87 octane gas ‘Regular,’ and 91 or 93 octane ‘Super’ in an attempt to reinforce this way of thinking. After all, since ‘Super’ is priced higher than ‘Regular,’ it’s in their best interest to convince as many people as they can that paying a bit extra means getting better quality gas.

Unfortunately, this is where the myth of what gasoline’s octane rating really means creeps into the picture. Time and again, people will be told that high octane fuel burns cleaner or more completely, and that it will give them extra power and better fuel mileage than Regular octane gasoline because it contains more ‘energy.’ These blanket statements are simply not true. In fact, the octane rating for gasoline has nothing to do with the amount of power locked inside of it – it actually relates to just how much a fuel can be compressed before igniting. The higher the number, the less likely it is to ignite under pressure.

Why would anyone want to produce a fuel that was actually harder to ignite once inside an engine? To understand the role that octane ratings and ignition pressures play in a motor, it helps to be familiar with the term ‘knock.’ Essentially, when gasoline is sprayed into a cylinder by a fuel injector and mixed with oxygen, engine designers expect it to remain there in vapor form until it is time for the sparkplug to light it up, causing the explosion that drives the piston down to generate horsepower. The timing of this explosion is critical, as gasoline that ignites too early causes ‘knock,’ which reduces engine output and efficiency and which, in worst-case scenarios, can actually physically damage an engine.

In most engines, knock is rarely an issue because the compression ratio – that is, the pressure that the air/fuel mixture is put under in the cylinder – is low enough that Regular gasoline’s octane rating is sufficient. There is absolutely no benefit to running Premium fuel in a standard motor, since it will never be able to take advantage of that gasoline’s higher knock resistance. However, more aggressive engine management schemes, especially those found in turbocharged or supercharged vehicles, can turn up the compression to a high level, requiring much higher octane gasoline to avoid knock.
As for me I am running 90 pure-gas not E10, I would rather give up one or two octane then have the ethanol mixed gas. You want to use the lowest octane that does not result in pinging for the best overall economy, that includes what you pay for the extra octane. However ethanol gives you worse mileage, E85 up to 30% less and from what I understand. The ethanol today is being used to raise octane ratings from lower octane gas.

In a higher compression engine that calls for it (including the Boss) higher octane will give you more horse power because of the way timing is adjusted with the knock sensor. I know I could explain this better, this is very general because I do not want to spend two hours typing.

Last edited by 2012YellowBoss; 5/14/11 at 04:54 PM.
Old 5/14/11, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 2012YellowBoss
In a higher compression engine that calls for it (including the Boss) higher octane will give you more horse power because of the way timing is adjusted with the knock sensor.
Thanks for the info Scott. This last reason is why I run 91+. Usually 93.
Old 5/14/11, 09:07 PM
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Scott you are to be commended! The post was excellent and explained the myth that the oil companies love to perpetuate that octane is related to power and fuel quality. It ABSOLUTELY is not and if the engine was not designed for a higher octane gas, using this fuel is of no benefit and will obviously increase operation costs.
Originally Posted by Big Vito
Premium will give you a little more power


Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the algorithms set up in the tune to advance ignition timing. I do not have any personal knowledge of what spark advance curves Ford has built into the engine control unit (ECU). Vito can you share with the community what you know about this topic?

Scott, if I might comment on a few of your points:

“The higher the octane the more stable the burning temp under higher compression. That is why it is only recommending in higher compression engines and engines with turbo/SC's.”

I struggle with your use of the term “more stable”. The combustion process is an explosion; not generally referred to as “stable”. As the post correctly discusses, the higher a fuel’s octane the less likely it is to ignite under pressure. And since turbocharging and supercharging both increase induction pressures, both systems produce higher cylinder pressures just prior to ignition and thus need “octane protection” for the fuel air charge to prevent igniting spontaneously prior to the timed spark.

“Today's engines are very different with knock sensors and more.”

Yes knock sensors are here and they do “listen” for the knock/rumble frequencies mapped and measured during engine development but they are not perfect. Obviously there are thresholds set where the sensor senses knock and messages the ECU to pull spark advance back but there may be load conditions just under the sensor threshold (or unrecognized knock frequencies) which may over time produce damage as well.

“ That would heat up and if a lower octane gas was used the heated carbon would set it off causing pre-detonation.”

Actually you are mixing two separate and distinct combustion phenomena.
Pre-ignition is one and Detonation is the other. They are different. See link for amplification. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking

“As for me I am running 90 pure-gas not E10, I would rather give up one or two octane then have the ethanol mixed gas.” (I agree with you as the ethanol added as an octane enhancement, (ethanol has a research octane of 107, motor 89) BUT it has only 56% of the BTU energy in “pure gasoline”.)

“You want to use the lowest octane that does not result in pinging for the best overall economy, that includes what you pay for the extra octane. However ethanol gives you worse mileage, E85 up to 30% less and from what I understand. The ethanol today is being used to raise octane ratings from lower octane gas.” (Absolutely true! People do not realize that the octane enhancement the refiners are promoting with the alcohol blends come at a significant price of LOW energy content. Thus with less energy available to produce mechanical work (that’s what the engine does) you have to feed it more fuel and the MPG goes down.)

Again, excellent post!
Old 5/14/11, 09:13 PM
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The coyote will advance the timing if a higher octane is used. If using 87 the knock sensors compensate by pulling timing. Big Vito is correct
Old 5/14/11, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Everett
The coyote will advance the timing if a higher octane is used. If using 87 the knock sensors compensate by pulling timing. Big Vito is correct
Thank you
I was going off of the brochure, technically
For the GT but on 87 it gets 402 and 93(or premium) got 412
Old 5/15/11, 05:14 AM
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Perry, since I do not have my Boss owners manual yet, what does it say about our boss regarding octane and power?
Can the sensors differentiate between 87, 91, 93 and say 98 octane fuels?
Old 5/15/11, 05:19 AM
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For my Raptor, with the 6.2 Liter, Ford advertises 411 hp under 91 and higher gas and 398 (I think) with 87. Probably something similar for the 5.0.
Old 5/15/11, 05:23 AM
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Dan, I was really looking for some informatiion more definitive than (Raptor) speculation.
Since you have an LS Boss, could you look it up in your owners manual. I do not have one (yet)...
Old 5/15/11, 05:44 AM
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Thanks for the answers guys
Old 5/15/11, 05:44 AM
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The only mention of Fuel in the Boss 302 Supplement is the track prep, where they recommend premium fuel. In the Mustang Owner's guide they say the 5.0 is designed to run on 87 octane, but for optimal vehicle perfromance it is recommended to use 91 octane or higher.

That is all I could find in the manuals.
Old 5/15/11, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Everett
The coyote will advance the timing if a higher octane is used. If using 87 the knock sensors compensate by pulling timing. Big Vito is correct
Isn't this how most newer cars adjust for different octanes and haven't they been doing this for years now?

BTW Big Vito is always correct except for when he's wrong. But even when he's wrong he's always correct because he is Big Vito and you don't mess with someone named Big Vito. At least on the Soprano's anyway.
Old 5/15/11, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by 5 DOT 0
Isn't this how most newer cars adjust for different octanes and haven't they been doing this for years now?

BTW Big Vito is always correct except for when he's wrong. But even when he's wrong he's always correct because he is Big Vito and you don't mess with someone named Big Vito. At least on the Soprano's anyway.
Unfortunately no knock sensors on the 07-09 GT500s. Many guys were running Torco for high boost applications. Octane's a big deal for these cars and it's always best to err on the high side. I just kept boost "reasonable" at about 14-15 psi and run at least 92. They did add knock sensors in the 10+ models.
Old 5/15/11, 09:33 AM
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So, 87 is good for everyday driving and 91 or 91+ would be the way to go for spirited driving??

If, I do half tank with 87 and half with 91 does the octane become 89 or is it more involved than just averaging the #s?
Old 5/15/11, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 5 DOT 0
Isn't this how most newer cars adjust for different octanes and haven't they been doing this for years now?

BTW Big Vito is always correct except for when he's wrong. But even when he's wrong he's always correct because he is Big Vito and you don't mess with someone named Big Vito. At least on the Soprano's anyway.
This
Old 5/15/11, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by LQQK
If, I do half tank with 87 and half with 91 does the octane become 89 or is it more involved than just averaging the #s?
For once in life, it's that simple.

Jimmy


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