2012 Boss 302 Engine - Press Release
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Can't wait to see someone get one and slap a procharger at 10+psi on it can you say 600+whp?
I'm sure you will be able to get the intake manifold for your regular 5.0 in time like say late next year? But does anyone think that ford might offer the whole engine in a small quantity? That would be sweet imagine finding an old boss with a blown/swapped/junked motor and fixing it up and swapping the new boss into it that would rock
I'm sure you will be able to get the intake manifold for your regular 5.0 in time like say late next year? But does anyone think that ford might offer the whole engine in a small quantity? That would be sweet imagine finding an old boss with a blown/swapped/junked motor and fixing it up and swapping the new boss into it that would rock
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So does anybody know exactly what "sinter-forged connecting rods" means? I've never heard of this before. I would hazard to guess that they are stronger than forged powdered metal but perhaps not as strong as forged steel, which they are not otherwise Ford would have indicated so.
#43
Googling sinter forged this is what comes up first...
http://www.louisvilleforge.com/powde...r-forging.html
Or better yet sintering gives us this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintering
http://www.louisvilleforge.com/powde...r-forging.html
Or better yet sintering gives us this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintering
Sintering is a method for making objects from powder, by heating the material in a sintering furnace[1] below its melting point (solid state sintering) until its particles adhere to each other. Sintering is traditionally used for manufacturing ceramic objects, and has also found uses in such fields as powder metallurgy.
Sintering of metallic powders
Most, if not all, metals can be sintered. This applies especially to pure metals produced in vacuum which suffer no surface contamination. Sintering under atmospheric pressure requires the usage of a protective gas, quite often endothermic gas.[4] Many nonmetallic substances also sinter, such as glass, alumina, zirconia, silica, magnesia, lime, ice, beryllium oxide, ferric oxide, and various organic polymers. Sintering, with subsequent reworking, can produce a great range of material properties. Changes in density, alloying, or heat treatments can alter the physical characteristics of various products. For instance, the Young's Modulus En of sintered iron powders remains insensitive to sintering time, alloying, or particle size in the original powder, but depends upon the density of the final product:
En / E = (D / d)3.4
where D is the density, E is Young's modulus and d is the maximum density of iron.
Sintering is static when a metal powder under certain external conditions may exhibit coalescence, and yet reverts to its normal behavior when such conditions are removed. In most cases, the density of a collection of grains increases as material flows into voids, causing a decrease in overall volume. Mass movements that occur during sintering consist of the reduction of total porosity by repacking, followed by material transport due to evaporation and condensation from diffusion. In the final stages, metal atoms move along crystal boundaries to the walls of internal pores, redistributing mass from the internal bulk of the object and smoothing pore walls. Surface tension is the driving force for this movement.
A special form of sintering, still considered part of powder metallurgy, is liquid state sintering. In liquid state sintering, at least one but not all elements are in a liquid state. Liquid state sintering is required for making cemented carbide or tungsten carbide.
Sintered bronze in particular is frequently used as a material for bearings, since its porosity allows lubricants to flow through it or remain captured within it. For materials that have relatively high melting points, by comparison to other materials of the same type, such as PTFE and tungsten, sintering is one of the few viable manufacturing processes. In these cases very low porosity is desirable and can often be achieved.
Sintered bronze and stainless steel are used as filter materials in applications requiring high temperature resistance while retaining the ability to regenerate the filter element. For example, sintered stainless steel elements are used for filtering steam in food and pharmaceutical applications.
Separation of items within the furnace is achieved using sheets similar to those described in the ceramic process above.
Most, if not all, metals can be sintered. This applies especially to pure metals produced in vacuum which suffer no surface contamination. Sintering under atmospheric pressure requires the usage of a protective gas, quite often endothermic gas.[4] Many nonmetallic substances also sinter, such as glass, alumina, zirconia, silica, magnesia, lime, ice, beryllium oxide, ferric oxide, and various organic polymers. Sintering, with subsequent reworking, can produce a great range of material properties. Changes in density, alloying, or heat treatments can alter the physical characteristics of various products. For instance, the Young's Modulus En of sintered iron powders remains insensitive to sintering time, alloying, or particle size in the original powder, but depends upon the density of the final product:
En / E = (D / d)3.4
where D is the density, E is Young's modulus and d is the maximum density of iron.
Sintering is static when a metal powder under certain external conditions may exhibit coalescence, and yet reverts to its normal behavior when such conditions are removed. In most cases, the density of a collection of grains increases as material flows into voids, causing a decrease in overall volume. Mass movements that occur during sintering consist of the reduction of total porosity by repacking, followed by material transport due to evaporation and condensation from diffusion. In the final stages, metal atoms move along crystal boundaries to the walls of internal pores, redistributing mass from the internal bulk of the object and smoothing pore walls. Surface tension is the driving force for this movement.
A special form of sintering, still considered part of powder metallurgy, is liquid state sintering. In liquid state sintering, at least one but not all elements are in a liquid state. Liquid state sintering is required for making cemented carbide or tungsten carbide.
Sintered bronze in particular is frequently used as a material for bearings, since its porosity allows lubricants to flow through it or remain captured within it. For materials that have relatively high melting points, by comparison to other materials of the same type, such as PTFE and tungsten, sintering is one of the few viable manufacturing processes. In these cases very low porosity is desirable and can often be achieved.
Sintered bronze and stainless steel are used as filter materials in applications requiring high temperature resistance while retaining the ability to regenerate the filter element. For example, sintered stainless steel elements are used for filtering steam in food and pharmaceutical applications.
Separation of items within the furnace is achieved using sheets similar to those described in the ceramic process above.
Last edited by 2k7gtcs; 8/15/10 at 08:52 AM.
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So does anybody know exactly what "sinter-forged connecting rods" means? I've never heard of this before. I would hazard to guess that they are stronger than forged powdered metal but perhaps not as strong as forged steel, which they are not otherwise Ford would have indicated so.
I suspect that Ford has just changed the metallurgy in the new rods to make them stronger.
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Thanks guys. I did the same google search and came up with basically the same stuff, that is to say I couldn't find any discernable difference from the typical forging process for powdered metals. So are we incorrect in saying that the Boss has a forged bottom end? Now I'm really curious as to just how much stronger these rods are relative to the ones in the regular 5.0.
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Thanks guys. I did the same google search and came up with basically the same stuff, that is to say I couldn't find any discernable difference from the typical forging process for powdered metals. So are we incorrect in saying that the Boss has a forged bottom end? Now I'm really curious as to just how much stronger these rods are relative to the ones in the regular 5.0.
Standard 5.0 is forged, except for the hypereutectic cast pistons.
The sinter/powder forged connecting rods having been improved for strength over standard 5.0 rods.
Last edited by Ltngdrvr; 8/15/10 at 12:19 PM.
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Needs to be more Astony
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Also the car dynos over 800rwhp. So its closer to 1000hp then 475hp.
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The Coyote team says the forged powdered-metal connecting rod is the least robust link in the 5.0 chain. Engineers noted it is absolutely strong enough for its naturally aspirated application in the Mustang, but just absolutely strong enough. It's worth noting that while the Coyote rod shares its big- and small-end diameters plus its center-to-center length with the 4.6 rod, the Coyote rod has been redesigned to more evenly distribute bearing loads and is definitely an improved piece.
Most ominously, supercharging will require a stronger forged rod, so we expect to see those, and, no doubt, a short-block in the FRPP catalog before long. This adds a whole new layer of commitment to bolting a blower on a Coyote. We'll have to let the brave among us prove the standard Coyote rods' boost tolerance. For those planning on a rod-exchanging teardown right away, Ford says the Cobra's Manley forged rod will just fit, but you must be careful. No word on how to package a forged piston and rod combination.
Because a fully populated Coyote crankcase is packaged tightly as coach airline seating-the already abbreviated piston skirts come close to the crankshaft counterweights-there is no room left for stroke increases.
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...ine/index.html
Last edited by cdynaco; 8/15/10 at 12:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ltngdrvr
Ford has added forged pistons so it is all forged now in the boss.
Standard 5.0 is forged, except for the hypereutectic cast pistons.
The sinter/powder forged connecting rods having been improved for strength over standard 5.0 rods.
Ford has added forged pistons so it is all forged now in the boss.
Standard 5.0 is forged, except for the hypereutectic cast pistons.
The sinter/powder forged connecting rods having been improved for strength over standard 5.0 rods.
For reference, this is from the 5.0 Mustangs article about the STANDARD 5.0 components:
The Coyote team says the forged powdered-metal connecting rod is the least robust link in the 5.0 chain. Engineers noted it is absolutely strong enough for its naturally aspirated application in the Mustang, but just absolutely strong enough. It's worth noting that while the Coyote rod shares its big- and small-end diameters plus its center-to-center length with the 4.6 rod, the Coyote rod has been redesigned to more evenly distribute bearing loads and is definitely an improved piece.
Most ominously, supercharging will require a stronger forged rod, so we expect to see those, and, no doubt, a short-block in the FRPP catalog before long. This adds a whole new layer of commitment to bolting a blower on a Coyote. We'll have to let the brave among us prove the standard Coyote rods' boost tolerance. For those planning on a rod-exchanging teardown right away, Ford says the Cobra's Manley forged rod will just fit, but you must be careful. No word on how to package a forged piston and rod combination.
Because a fully populated Coyote crankcase is packaged tightly as coach airline seating-the already abbreviated piston skirts come close to the crankshaft counterweights-there is no room left for stroke increases.
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...ine/index.html
The Coyote team says the forged powdered-metal connecting rod is the least robust link in the 5.0 chain. Engineers noted it is absolutely strong enough for its naturally aspirated application in the Mustang, but just absolutely strong enough. It's worth noting that while the Coyote rod shares its big- and small-end diameters plus its center-to-center length with the 4.6 rod, the Coyote rod has been redesigned to more evenly distribute bearing loads and is definitely an improved piece.
Most ominously, supercharging will require a stronger forged rod, so we expect to see those, and, no doubt, a short-block in the FRPP catalog before long. This adds a whole new layer of commitment to bolting a blower on a Coyote. We'll have to let the brave among us prove the standard Coyote rods' boost tolerance. For those planning on a rod-exchanging teardown right away, Ford says the Cobra's Manley forged rod will just fit, but you must be careful. No word on how to package a forged piston and rod combination.
Because a fully populated Coyote crankcase is packaged tightly as coach airline seating-the already abbreviated piston skirts come close to the crankshaft counterweights-there is no room left for stroke increases.
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...ine/index.html
And your point of quoting this info again is?
Last edited by Ltngdrvr; 8/15/10 at 12:45 PM.
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Like I said.. for reference. To compare to Gary's post about the improved sinter forged.
Perhaps they also improved the headers on the Boss to utilize the higher RPM's?
STANDARD 5.0 notes:
Perhaps they also improved the headers on the Boss to utilize the higher RPM's?
STANDARD 5.0 notes:
The Coyote's tubular headers were a real challenge for cold starts, so Jeff had to use all his knowledge to get them to pass emissions. And then there was everything over 6,000 rpm, a range where Ford calibrators simply haven't gone before. Maintaining precise control up to the Coyote's 7,000-rpm redline was trying. Team members said if it had been any calibrator other than Jeff-a rabid enthusiast himself-they might have been told to limit the new Mustang's rpm and call it a day.
Last edited by cdynaco; 8/15/10 at 01:10 PM.
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Where does it say that the Boss rods are forged(steel)? As the poster above mentioned, the standard 5.0 is very much not forged steel. Powdered metals. If you are referring to the information sheet posted on here, it's incorrect, just as it is for the standard GT and V6. It says the rods are forged, but this is obviously not correct.
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C&D has an article on CTA (cam torque actuated) and OPA (oil pressure actuated) VVT systems. The 4.6 3v has the upperhand in this regard when it comes to cam control at high RPM. The 5.0's CTA system is better at low and mid engine speeds. Another interesting thing about a CTA system is that it will not work on an in-line 6 IIRC.
If I understand it correcty, oil pressure is still moving the vanes within the phaser to change cam timing. But rather than directly from the oil pump circuit, it utilized the already occurring valve spring action on the cam lobes to generate oil pressure against the vanes to change cam timing (though they don't explain how this builds pressure in the oil circuit). I would love to see a simulation vid to see them both in action for comparison.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...stem-tech_dept
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...rformance.html
Last edited by cdynaco; 8/15/10 at 02:15 PM.
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It confuses the term with real forging of a solid chunk of iron with heat treating and pressure.
IMO
Last edited by cdynaco; 8/15/10 at 03:41 PM.
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Where does it say that the Boss rods are forged(steel)? As the poster above mentioned, the standard 5.0 is very much not forged steel. Powdered metals. If you are referring to the information sheet posted on here, it's incorrect, just as it is for the standard GT and V6. It says the rods are forged, but this is obviously not correct.
Nowhere in my post did I say they were forged solid steel.
Ford's calling them forged is absolutely correct.
And, if I recall correctly, the connecting rods in the 3.7 V6 are actually a solid steel forging, not sintered steel as in the 5.0.
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4. POWDER FORGING
Powder forging produces fully dense PM steel parts , such as the automotive connecting rod used in BMW V8 engines.
The production of traditional PM parts has been expanding at a significantly faster rate than the general growth of engineering production and when it was originally developed in the 1970s powder forging or sinter forging was expected to alter fundamentally the scale of the PM industry.
PROCESS
In this process, a powder blank is pressed to a simple shape halfway between that of a forging billet and the required finished part.
This compact, referred to as a preform, is sintered and then hot forged to finished size and shape in a closed die.
The amount of deformation involved is sufficient to give a final density very closely approaching that of the solid metal , and consequently, the mechanical properties are comparable with those of material forged from wrought bar.
ADVANTAGES
Indeed they may be superior in some respects because of the freedom of the sinter forged part from directionality, the greater homogeneity as regards composition, and a finer microstructure, as well as the absence of internal discontinuities resulting from ingot defects that are possible in forgings made from cast metal.
An additional advantage is the dimensional consistency achievable in consequence of the accurate metering of the quantity of powder used.
LIMITATIONS
There are limitations to the steel compositions that can be successfully produced on a commercial scale.
* Steels containing readily oxidisable elements such as chromium and manganese - which happens to be also the cheaper strengthening elements - cannot easily be used, but special compositions , generally containing as alloying elements, nickel and molybdenum, the oxides of which are reduced in sintering atmospheres, have been developed.
* Powder forged steel parts can be heat treated in the same manner as wrought steels.
Production costs in powder forging are generally higher than in conventional casting or forging due mainly to the high price of the starting material and tooling. However, the high precision achieved in powder forging results in considerable savings on machining costs and hence savings on investments in machining operations.
This has particularly proved to be the case for powder forged connecting rods which are gaining in popularity all over the world due to their improved dimensional accuracy, higher dynamic properties, smoother running in the engine, and significant cost savings.
Many companies in North America, Japan and Europe now have large powder forging installations mainly to produce parts for the automotive industry . Such parts can have inside and outside spline forms, cam forms, and other forms that require extensive machining. In addition to the well known connecting rod other applications include bearing races, torque convertor hubs, and gears.
Powder forging produces fully dense PM steel parts , such as the automotive connecting rod used in BMW V8 engines.
The production of traditional PM parts has been expanding at a significantly faster rate than the general growth of engineering production and when it was originally developed in the 1970s powder forging or sinter forging was expected to alter fundamentally the scale of the PM industry.
PROCESS
In this process, a powder blank is pressed to a simple shape halfway between that of a forging billet and the required finished part.
This compact, referred to as a preform, is sintered and then hot forged to finished size and shape in a closed die.
The amount of deformation involved is sufficient to give a final density very closely approaching that of the solid metal , and consequently, the mechanical properties are comparable with those of material forged from wrought bar.
ADVANTAGES
Indeed they may be superior in some respects because of the freedom of the sinter forged part from directionality, the greater homogeneity as regards composition, and a finer microstructure, as well as the absence of internal discontinuities resulting from ingot defects that are possible in forgings made from cast metal.
An additional advantage is the dimensional consistency achievable in consequence of the accurate metering of the quantity of powder used.
LIMITATIONS
There are limitations to the steel compositions that can be successfully produced on a commercial scale.
* Steels containing readily oxidisable elements such as chromium and manganese - which happens to be also the cheaper strengthening elements - cannot easily be used, but special compositions , generally containing as alloying elements, nickel and molybdenum, the oxides of which are reduced in sintering atmospheres, have been developed.
* Powder forged steel parts can be heat treated in the same manner as wrought steels.
Production costs in powder forging are generally higher than in conventional casting or forging due mainly to the high price of the starting material and tooling. However, the high precision achieved in powder forging results in considerable savings on machining costs and hence savings on investments in machining operations.
This has particularly proved to be the case for powder forged connecting rods which are gaining in popularity all over the world due to their improved dimensional accuracy, higher dynamic properties, smoother running in the engine, and significant cost savings.
Many companies in North America, Japan and Europe now have large powder forging installations mainly to produce parts for the automotive industry . Such parts can have inside and outside spline forms, cam forms, and other forms that require extensive machining. In addition to the well known connecting rod other applications include bearing races, torque convertor hubs, and gears.
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I'm not a metallurgist or blacksmith. But I think the auto industry has bastardized the word 'forged'.
To an average person, pouring a powdered metal product is really a casting. While they may add heat and pressure treating for strength, and claim that arranging atoms or formulating different blends is 'better', if it were truly forged, then it would take at least the same HP as a true forged Manley Rod, correct?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting_(metalworking)
To an average person, pouring a powdered metal product is really a casting. While they may add heat and pressure treating for strength, and claim that arranging atoms or formulating different blends is 'better', if it were truly forged, then it would take at least the same HP as a true forged Manley Rod, correct?
Forging can produce a piece that is stronger than an equivalent cast or machined part. As the metal is shaped during the forging process, its internal grain deforms to follow the general shape of the part. As a result, the grain is continuous throughout the part, giving rise to a piece with improved strength characteristics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging
In metalworking, casting involves pouring a liquid metal into a mold, which contains a hollow cavity of the desired shape, and then is allowed to solidify. The solidified part is also known as a casting, which is ejected or broken out of the mold to complete the process. Casting is most often used for making complex shapes that would be difficult or uneconomical to make by other methods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting_(metalworking)
Last edited by cdynaco; 8/15/10 at 03:16 PM.
#59
Actual forging is the strongest possible conventional manufacturing technique for metals. Sintering is not forging.
End of story.
End of story.
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I'm not a metallurgist or blacksmith. But I think the auto industry has bastardized the word 'forged'.
To an average person, pouring a powdered metal product is really a casting. While they may add heat and pressure treating for strength, and claim that arranging atoms or formulating different blends is 'better', if it were truly forged, then it would take at least the same HP as a true forged Manley Rod, correct?
To an average person, pouring a powdered metal product is really a casting. While they may add heat and pressure treating for strength, and claim that arranging atoms or formulating different blends is 'better', if it were truly forged, then it would take at least the same HP as a true forged Manley Rod, correct?
So, it is not a "casting", it is a "forging".
And the "Auto Industry" had nothing to do with the term "Forging", that is a metal industry term.
Actual forging is the strongest possible conventional manufacturing technique for metals. Sintering is not forging.
Last edited by Ltngdrvr; 8/15/10 at 03:55 PM.