Aluminum Driveshaft - How important is it?
3/31/14, 11:22 PM
#1
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Aluminum Driveshaft - How important is it?
My next step is going to be to throw a ProCharger on my car, as it is entering the end of warranty period. I'm wondering if I need to put an aluminum driveshaft on it first for safety?
I've heard a lot of conflicting opinions on whether the driveshaft failures were really due to defective design or people breaking them through some kind of absurd abuse. Wondering what peoples experiences are with supercharged V6s with/without aluminum driveshafts for handling the power ....
I've heard a lot of conflicting opinions on whether the driveshaft failures were really due to defective design or people breaking them through some kind of absurd abuse. Wondering what peoples experiences are with supercharged V6s with/without aluminum driveshafts for handling the power ....
Last edited by zbrewha863; 4/12/14 at 07:47 PM.
4/1/14, 01:38 AM
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My next step is going to be to throw a ProCharger on my car, as it is entering the end of warranty period. I'm wondering if I need to put an aluminum driveshaft on it first for safety? I've heard a lot of conflicting opinions on whether the driveshaft failures were really due to defective design or people breaking them through some kind of absurd abuse. Wondering what peoples experiences are with supercharged V6s with/without aluminum driveshafts .....
4/1/14, 05:58 AM
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Agreed. Definitely get a one pc ds. The piece of mind is certainly worth the price. You are heading down the same route I am. Last year I had the aluminum ds put on when I had the car dyno tuned, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to unlock the motors potential in 5th or 6th. I am still 2k away from affording my procharger, so if you beat me to it be sure to post pics and dyno charts. What is your target at the wheels?
Last edited by V6 Driver; 4/1/14 at 06:00 AM.
4/1/14, 07:21 AM
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I've been holding off because I've seen both sides of the debate. Some say it's complete b.s. and take there Stang to 120-130 all the time and others say you shouldn't but only claim the videos that are out there which none of them I've seen actually show it breaking. I want to know if it'd worth it performance wise. Do you really see a difference worth the money?
Last edited by Ajcruz1; 4/1/14 at 12:36 PM.
4/1/14, 11:28 AM
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There is a speed governer on the V6 for a reason, and from what I have read the reason is the driveshaft. As I said for the piece of mind the 700ish bucks was worth it in my opinion.
4/1/14, 12:29 PM
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And when you wreck, and the 1 piece doesn't break away like the factory 2 piece is engineered to do so it crushes forward into the cab making mush out of your head, with the 1 piece clipping the tanks at full jounce, at least there will be a good fire to clean up the mess. Brilliant.
4/1/14, 01:31 PM
#7
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So because you want to drive past 120, and assume Ford limited the speed only due to one part, you are going to ignore all the other parts of the drive train and suspension system, and drive it like a GT? Because you were too cheap to buy a GT? Because V6 = racecar??
And when you wreck, and the 1 piece doesn't break away like the factory 2 piece is engineered to do so it crushes forward into the cab making mush out of your head, with the 1 piece clipping the tanks at full jounce, at least there will be a good fire to clean up the mess. Brilliant.
And when you wreck, and the 1 piece doesn't break away like the factory 2 piece is engineered to do so it crushes forward into the cab making mush out of your head, with the 1 piece clipping the tanks at full jounce, at least there will be a good fire to clean up the mess. Brilliant.
Too cheap to buy a GT? You are highly underestimating the 3.7 cyclone greatly my friend
. I bought my V6 mustang because it was what I could afford and still live within my means. Am I ashamed when next to a 5.0? Not in the slightest.Sure it doesn't have the V8 that the GT has but a base GT is little different from a base V6 mustang. I am completely stable at 120mph and have complete confidence in my car. I would definitely recommend the one piece drive shaft for ease of mind. There is nothing special about the GT's suspension compared to the V6 suspension unless you talk about track packs and then there is still a V6 version to match that. I would recommend upgrades to suspension and tires if you plan to take it to that speed.
4/1/14, 01:52 PM
#8
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So because you want to drive past 120, and assume Ford limited the speed only due to one part, you are going to ignore all the other parts of the drive train and suspension system, and drive it like a GT? Because you were too cheap to buy a GT? Because V6 = racecar??
And when you wreck, and the 1 piece doesn't break away like the factory 2 piece is engineered to do so it crushes forward into the cab making mush out of your head, with the 1 piece clipping the tanks at full jounce, at least there will be a good fire to clean up the mess. Brilliant.
And when you wreck, and the 1 piece doesn't break away like the factory 2 piece is engineered to do so it crushes forward into the cab making mush out of your head, with the 1 piece clipping the tanks at full jounce, at least there will be a good fire to clean up the mess. Brilliant.
Also, those with the performance package already have better suspension and GT brakes.
4/1/14, 02:22 PM
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I wasn't referring to being ashamed of a V6. I was referring to the risk and foolishness of exceeding the manufacturer's engineered speed rating.
No - its not. But it is speed limited 30mph higher so at least there is factory engineering behind it's increased ability. Rather than "I read that the only reason the V6 is limited is because of the drive shaft!".
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No - its not. But it is speed limited 30mph higher so at least there is factory engineering behind it's increased ability. Rather than "I read that the only reason the V6 is limited is because of the drive shaft!".
.
4/1/14, 02:46 PM
#10
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I wasn't referring to being ashamed of a V6. I was referring to the risk and foolishness of exceeding the manufacturer's engineered speed rating.
No - its not. But it is speed limited 30mph higher so at least there is factory engineering behind it's increased ability. Rather than "I read that the only reason the V6 is limited is because of the drive shaft!".
.
No - its not. But it is speed limited 30mph higher so at least there is factory engineering behind it's increased ability. Rather than "I read that the only reason the V6 is limited is because of the drive shaft!".
.
4/1/14, 03:07 PM
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Here's some notes from an engineer on Bullitt that used to post here, talking about the 'driveline system' and the factory 2 piece. Note what he says about staying well below the speed that could put things into 'resonance'. What is that speed on the V6? Since the speed limiter on Bullitt is 151, and the V6 is 120, is that limit 30mph lower too?
I wouldn't want to be guessing at those speeds in a street car. Would you guys?
"The post mentions high speed and 160mph - The Mustang (as it leaves AAI) is speed limited well below that for a reason. Like I said before, I do not know specifics about the dynotech piece, what it does or does not do. I do know about the 2-piece in the factory car. It is a fairly robust piece. Vibration is not an issue unless the centerbearing shims are not installed properly, the shaft has a balance issue or the pinion angle is off. These would be quality issues (that I'm not aware of having in production), not design. The 2-pc has no roll in whether or not you have a random vibration. U-joint angles, run-out (flange or shaft), balance and system modal (resonance) response govern vibration.
****************************
The 2-piece driveshaft is required to meet internal engineering requirements for safe operation at max vehicle speed. Basically, it is designed to provide a driveline system resonance well above what the speed limiter will allow you to operate at. If you put your driveline into resonance, bad things may happen! I've seen what it does to a car and it isn't pretty.
The driveshaft CV joints are required components on this type of driveshaft when combined with a live axle. If the rear suspension were IRS, simple flex couplings would be used (look at the new Camaro, Challenger, etc...) and would make for a lighter driveshaft.
The driveshaft also has an internal torsional damper (ITD) which is solely there to attenuate axle whine. If package allowed, the ITD would be mounted on the exterior of the driveshaft as a much lighter ring design. Since the equivalent inertia is required out of the smaller diameter part when installed inside the driveshaft, the mass has to increase. So, you get a heavier ITD vs a lightweight ETD.
A single piece steel or aluminum 1-piece would have to be larger in diameter than the current package allows. Basically, you would have contact with the fuel tank at full rear suspension jounce. 1-piece carbon fiber was explored at one time...
Hope this helps.
***********************
I would not assume an aftermarket piece "solves" a problem. Yes, you can stuff a massive driveshaft into the tunnel but it will not meet standard vehicle engineering requirements. Our requirements take many factors into account, with the biggest one being your personal safety under a wide variety of operating conditions. Our parts are engineered to work in one big system. Aftermarket parts are generally not engineered. By this, I mean that they are designed to fit properly (usually) and improve one or two attributes specific to your application.
For example, if you want a lighter weight driveshaft that gives you less rotating inertia, you can buy this aluminum 1-pc driveshaft. But, that's all you get - lighter weight. Not proven durability, safety (how does the driveshaft react in a rear impact?, clearance to other parts like the fuel tank?), NVH, ride (driveshaft plunge force actually affects your ride quality), etc...
But that's the great part about it being your car. You get to decide what you want your Mustang to be. Just be cautious and think about how these parts may affect the rest of your driving experience, safety and wallet if it breaks or breaks something else in the car."
****************************
The 2-piece driveshaft is required to meet internal engineering requirements for safe operation at max vehicle speed. Basically, it is designed to provide a driveline system resonance well above what the speed limiter will allow you to operate at. If you put your driveline into resonance, bad things may happen! I've seen what it does to a car and it isn't pretty.
The driveshaft CV joints are required components on this type of driveshaft when combined with a live axle. If the rear suspension were IRS, simple flex couplings would be used (look at the new Camaro, Challenger, etc...) and would make for a lighter driveshaft.
The driveshaft also has an internal torsional damper (ITD) which is solely there to attenuate axle whine. If package allowed, the ITD would be mounted on the exterior of the driveshaft as a much lighter ring design. Since the equivalent inertia is required out of the smaller diameter part when installed inside the driveshaft, the mass has to increase. So, you get a heavier ITD vs a lightweight ETD.
A single piece steel or aluminum 1-piece would have to be larger in diameter than the current package allows. Basically, you would have contact with the fuel tank at full rear suspension jounce. 1-piece carbon fiber was explored at one time...
Hope this helps.
***********************
I would not assume an aftermarket piece "solves" a problem. Yes, you can stuff a massive driveshaft into the tunnel but it will not meet standard vehicle engineering requirements. Our requirements take many factors into account, with the biggest one being your personal safety under a wide variety of operating conditions. Our parts are engineered to work in one big system. Aftermarket parts are generally not engineered. By this, I mean that they are designed to fit properly (usually) and improve one or two attributes specific to your application.
For example, if you want a lighter weight driveshaft that gives you less rotating inertia, you can buy this aluminum 1-pc driveshaft. But, that's all you get - lighter weight. Not proven durability, safety (how does the driveshaft react in a rear impact?, clearance to other parts like the fuel tank?), NVH, ride (driveshaft plunge force actually affects your ride quality), etc...
But that's the great part about it being your car. You get to decide what you want your Mustang to be. Just be cautious and think about how these parts may affect the rest of your driving experience, safety and wallet if it breaks or breaks something else in the car."
Last edited by cdynaco; 4/1/14 at 03:09 PM.
4/1/14, 03:39 PM
#12
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Thread Starter
Please note that this is not a debate on being "too cheap to buy a GT", if it turns into that I will request that you leave.
Also, this is not a debate on the speed limiter, this is a question of whether the stock V6 driveshaft can handle the power or not. This car is strictly a street car, I have a track car for doing crazy things, I will NEVER go faster than 120 on a public street.
I am planning on putting down 400-450whp off the bat. Does anybody have any actual experience with the stock or aftermarket driveshafts on V6s with this kind of power? Or any actual experience of driveshaft failure besides seeing the poor quality YouTube videos that don't really show anything?
Also, this is not a debate on the speed limiter, this is a question of whether the stock V6 driveshaft can handle the power or not. This car is strictly a street car, I have a track car for doing crazy things, I will NEVER go faster than 120 on a public street.
I am planning on putting down 400-450whp off the bat. Does anybody have any actual experience with the stock or aftermarket driveshafts on V6s with this kind of power? Or any actual experience of driveshaft failure besides seeing the poor quality YouTube videos that don't really show anything?
4/1/14, 03:46 PM
#14
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Thread Starter
I agree, it's not worth playing a guessing game with your life, which could be severely shortened if that driveshaft breaks at 150mph.
As far as your "driveline being different" argument, as far as I know the only differences in the driveline (aside from the engines) are the driveshaft and clutch/flywheel. They have the same transmissions (aside from bell housings) and rear ends as I understand it. I have a Performance Package, so the same brakes and suspension as well.
But I don't have 100% of the information, so that's why I'm asking. This is completely about handling the power though, not the top speed. I think going that fast on the street is crazy anyway, and this is strictly a street car for me.
As far as your "driveline being different" argument, as far as I know the only differences in the driveline (aside from the engines) are the driveshaft and clutch/flywheel. They have the same transmissions (aside from bell housings) and rear ends as I understand it. I have a Performance Package, so the same brakes and suspension as well.
But I don't have 100% of the information, so that's why I'm asking. This is completely about handling the power though, not the top speed. I think going that fast on the street is crazy anyway, and this is strictly a street car for me.
See you're just guessing here. I've now seen multiple threads on TMS about V6's only needing to change the driveshaft to exceed the factory speed limit. Some have posted the 'theoretical' top speed based on redline, gears, etc.; as if that's the only factor in safely reaching top speed. Some guys are going to read that and think it's safe to exceed 120 in the V6 simply by running out and buying a 1 pc alum driveshaft.
Here's some notes from an engineer on Bullitt that used to post here, talking about the 'driveline system' and the factory 2 piece. Note what he says about staying well below the speed that could put things into 'resonance'. What is that speed on the V6? Since the speed limiter on Bullitt is 151, and the V6 is 120, is that limit 30mph lower too?
I wouldn't want to be guessing at those speeds in a street car. Would you guys?
Here's some notes from an engineer on Bullitt that used to post here, talking about the 'driveline system' and the factory 2 piece. Note what he says about staying well below the speed that could put things into 'resonance'. What is that speed on the V6? Since the speed limiter on Bullitt is 151, and the V6 is 120, is that limit 30mph lower too?
I wouldn't want to be guessing at those speeds in a street car. Would you guys?
4/1/14, 04:16 PM
#15
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I'm not really sure what your point is. Do you say this in every thread where someone states they plan on removing the speed limiter? Or just for those with V6 Mustangs? There have been a few reports of driveshafts grenading at high speeds, it would make sense that someone wanting to drive those speeds would ask about replacing the driveshaft.
4/2/14, 12:31 AM
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I wasn't referring to being ashamed of a V6. I was referring to the risk and foolishness of exceeding the manufacturer's engineered speed rating. No - its not. But it is speed limited 30mph higher so at least there is factory engineering behind it's increased ability. Rather than "I read that the only reason the V6 is limited is because of the drive shaft!". .
4/2/14, 05:17 AM
#18
A Man Just Needs Some....
I can't believe I missed this thread so far. You do not buy a sixer for performance plain and simple. Enjoy your car. Make it look good. But you're in for a long hard road if you want to turn a sixer into a high performance vehicle. Should have started with a GT. If you want GT performance, do like 90% of sixer owners and trade it in on a GT before you destroy your trade in value.
4/2/14, 06:01 AM
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OP.....Not many V6 peeps here have first hand experience with the power/driveshaft combo you are referring to. Your target matches mine, which my speed shop said is quite attainable.
Rant On
To the V8 guys posting in this thread that have taken it off topic I say this since this argument comes up time and again. Personally could I have afforded a V8? Absolutely. Did I see a reason to spend 5 - 7K over the cost of a base V6 for a base GT? No way. The GT comes stock with only 350whp (420 listed in advertising is at the crank) when I can but a Procharger on and be 420+ hp at the wheels AND still be money ahead. I am doing it this way for bragging rights and a few other reasons that are my own.
To another point, none of us are building race cars. Also I have had my car up to 120 for a few seconds on the freeway. I am sure we all have. No one is saying they do it all the time unless tracking it in some way.
End rant.
Rant On
To the V8 guys posting in this thread that have taken it off topic I say this since this argument comes up time and again. Personally could I have afforded a V8? Absolutely. Did I see a reason to spend 5 - 7K over the cost of a base V6 for a base GT? No way. The GT comes stock with only 350whp (420 listed in advertising is at the crank) when I can but a Procharger on and be 420+ hp at the wheels AND still be money ahead. I am doing it this way for bragging rights and a few other reasons that are my own.
To another point, none of us are building race cars. Also I have had my car up to 120 for a few seconds on the freeway. I am sure we all have. No one is saying they do it all the time unless tracking it in some way.
End rant.
