CaptDistraction

New motor, now 500 miles into break in without significant issue (could use a neutral profile correction). However since I've had it running, there's been an odd noise, varying in volume with oil temperature and runtime coming from the timing cover area.

It can be subtle to very loud (enough to hear over a dual disc noisy raceclutch and exhaust). Mostly coming off revs.

The noise sounds like a whirring, whining, metallic moaning noise that follows RPM. At first I thought it had to be the water pump, but now I'm not so sure. It definitely seems like its coming from the timing cover itself. I'll test the car soon without the belt on, but I don't believe the noise to be the pump.

I'm unsure what in the timing system could make such a noise? if it were chain slack, I'd expect a rattle, worn guides maybe? Solenoids?

Here's a couple quick videos:


Timing is made up of:
new main chains
MMR crank sprocket
Boss 302/CJ main tensioners
Stock GT secondary tensioners
MMR secondary timing chains
Factory GT phasers
13+ phaser solenoids (removed the 11 and installed new fittings)
Boss 302 Cams/heads/etc

Couple videos (listen for the higher pitches, I'll try to get better video):

- no revving, but you can clearly hear it, almost like a buzz.

- here its not as loud, but you can hear it follow the revs, especially on revdown (listen for higher pitched noises)

SpectreH

Almost sounds like the chain is noisy as it goes over the sprockets. Really weird.

CaptDistraction

An update:

I haven't pulled the covers yet, but I did go around the motor with a screwdriver. There's some mild clacking on the passenger side valvecover (sounds like lifters, or possibly chain related), but I didn't have anyone to press the throttle while I tested.

I did get a more clear video:

you can still hear it most on revdown. Its gets much louder at times but I just can't figure this one out. I'll try to get the valve covers removed tonight.

ford20

It sounds like a timing chain related noise IMO. I would try and get the Ford Racing timing kit and just replace everything in all honesty.

Sorry to hear this Drew, that sucks big time. Hopefully someone with more knowledge would be able to second my thoughts. Maybe show the video to Darren and see if his sounded like it made that noise before he had issues.

CaptDistraction

Drew is the red boss, I'm Chris the yellow GT

I agree, it sounds timing related, and will check with Darren and see what he thinks.

ford20

Shoot I always get you two mixed up because both of you are in AZ. Sorry about that.

If anything you can pull the cover off real quick and see if you find any wear marks anywhere.

CaptDistraction

So I took the covers off and couldn't find much. The cam lobes all look great, the secondary chain and tensioners look fine on both sides. I can very slightly pull up on the chain on the secondary tensioner but not enough to relieve pressure against the guide so they are nice and tight even without the tensioner pumped up.

I took the belt off and spun all the pulleys and all are whisper quiet.

I checked each lifter/follower and the unloaded ones can move very slightly unpumped and I believe that to be normal and expected. Can't see much of the main chain yet it appears to be tight and appropriately tensioned.








I guess next step is the front cover. There's no possibility oil pump or main bearing(s) could contribute to noise like that is there?

CaptDistraction

Pulled the belt and ran the motor to warm, but noise persists. Rules out the FEAD belt system. It definitely starts once the water temps reach 140 or so.

ford20

Do you know if the sound was intermittent at first and very faint and grew louder?

SpectreH

Any chance it's the water pump? Noise begins as thermostat starts to open and more coolant flows?

CaptDistraction

I ran without the belt, and the noise showed up as the water temps rose, ruling out the pump.

The sound has mostly been there since the beginning on this motor, but shows up as the motor warms up.

boss man

I'm only trying to help and have no mechanical backround.
Any chance it could be the oil pump and gears since you say it get worse with temp. You did say the noise comes from the front of the motor...Correct?

if you ran it without the belt we can rule out a bearing in the water pump/alt/a/c ifyou still have or idler pully. What about a header leak or loose bolt with a washer viberating.
Again only trying to help you. You must be very frustrated by now.

Try going old school and place a large screw driver to listen on diffenent parts of the motor while running to see if you can at least get a general idea which side or where it may be coming from.

CaptDistraction

I've listened to dozens of timing noise videos and nothing really seems to sound the same outside a F150 video that had a similar whine/moan to it though very audible at idle (3.5L).

I've heard oil pump gears be mentioned, phasers, etc. I'll pull the oil pan plug tonight and look for excessive metal fuzz/shavings. I'll also check the headers for signs of leakage. I've gone over it with a screwdriver to inconclusive results

Saturday I'll have some helpers to take a look at the car but still at a total loss, we'll put it in the air and I can try to listen from below the car. I can pull the motor and send it back to the builder (they are offering their support and inspection), but I really don't want to go down that road unless I must. Its such a bummer to being so close to ready for track season and yet so far away from being able to go.

ford20

I feel you man. I had my car on the dyno getting strapped down when the engine blew again. So close yet so far.

The only thing I could think of would be something in the timing gear. You could preform a leak down test and see if you have a blown head gasket. At the very least it would rule that out and it is fairly simple. I doubt that would be it though, it should run pretty bad with a blown head gasket.

CaptDistraction

Went over it again with a screwdriver top and bottom but can't tell at idle. Once it's warm it really makes noise though. Drove it around and it was fine though my water leak is picking up so a project to track that down.

The pan plug did have some metal on it but what i would consider mostly normal. The sample of oil I captured was mostly clear but had lots of stuff in it, again not sure how big an issue on a new motor or a sample taken from the bottom of the pan (additionally the copper color may have been from the crush washer or the coating on the exterior of the pan)

So no closer.

Pics:
Plug


Oil sample in water container I had sliced open:

ford20

If the oil hasn't been changed out yet I would assume there is still a fair amount of loctite and what not from the break in process. Did you show the videos to Mark and whoever else over there and they didn't really have an idea?

Could it possibly be the fan trying to kick on, but the motor is blown?

CaptDistraction

yeah the fan comes on normally and sits at a mostly fixed RPM. The noise I hear is a buzz that follows RPM, particularly audible on revdown (though it might be just as loud on rev-up, but harder to hear over exhaust).

I can hear it reflect on buildings and etc when driving around, it has gotten louder over time, so I am pausing all activity on the car until I can pull the front cover. Once I move into my new home on July 1st, there's a good chance I'll be pulling the motor and back it goes.

I wish they'd let me give them the whole car and just pay the services costs for removal and repair. This being my 3rd motor from them there's always a disconnect between my expectation and what happens; I'd like to have them actually see the issues I face and be able to assemble it and say "yes, this runs to our standards and should exceed yours".

Otherwise bad come to worse, I'll start hunting either a stock motor and sit out the upcoming season until I can afford to have a spare lump to put in while we figure this one out. Last track day for that car was February of 2014, what's another year I guess. I definitely want to be able to approach racing and not have to fear the motor every time I touch the throttle.

CaptDistraction

Put it in the air today and listened from below while someone revved it. Two noises both from the front and seem related to the timing chain. There's definitely some more rapid clacking noise when revving down suggesting the timing chain has excessive slack and particularly on the passenger side. With the move I'll get the car home week of the 12th and get the front cover off and dig in deeper.