Any guesses on what the max power on a NA 5.0 will be?
8/22/10, 07:14 AM
#1
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Any guesses on what the max power on a NA 5.0 will be?
With all the supercharger kits coming out now making 525-625 hp, my issue would be drivetrain durability (namely clutch and tranny) due to the torque and high hp.
It seems the 5.0 has been responding pretty decently to bolt on mods and tunes already, so it got me thinking, what do you all think the max estimated CRANK hp of the 5.0 would be without forced induction or spraying?
For the sake of it, let's also say has to be street legal so exhaust work requires at least high flow cats.
Livernois's 11.5:1 compression ratio forged pistons are said to be good for 15 hp by themselves. I'm no piston pro, so I'd be curious if through tuning that higher compression piston is worth more than that, otherwise $1500 + install costs on pistons that give you only 15 hp doesn't seem cost effective.
Intake
Headers
Full exhaust
Forged Pistons
Tune (on pump gas max 93 octane)
Even with high flow cats I'd think just that set up alone would be worth 60-70 crank hp, for a total of around 475-485 crank hp (catless pipes should get 500 hp no?)
When cams arrive it's going to go up from there.
Wonder if there is a shop in the process of making a top hp NA 5.0
I think a 475+ hp NA street legal 5.0 would be pretty bad@ss.
And once cams come out I'm sure the power levels will go above 500 quite easily.
What do you all think?
It seems the 5.0 has been responding pretty decently to bolt on mods and tunes already, so it got me thinking, what do you all think the max estimated CRANK hp of the 5.0 would be without forced induction or spraying?
For the sake of it, let's also say has to be street legal so exhaust work requires at least high flow cats.
Livernois's 11.5:1 compression ratio forged pistons are said to be good for 15 hp by themselves. I'm no piston pro, so I'd be curious if through tuning that higher compression piston is worth more than that, otherwise $1500 + install costs on pistons that give you only 15 hp doesn't seem cost effective.
Intake
Headers
Full exhaust
Forged Pistons
Tune (on pump gas max 93 octane)
Even with high flow cats I'd think just that set up alone would be worth 60-70 crank hp, for a total of around 475-485 crank hp (catless pipes should get 500 hp no?)
When cams arrive it's going to go up from there.
Wonder if there is a shop in the process of making a top hp NA 5.0
I think a 475+ hp NA street legal 5.0 would be pretty bad@ss.
And once cams come out I'm sure the power levels will go above 500 quite easily.
What do you all think?
8/22/10, 05:11 PM
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With all the supercharger kits coming out now making 525-625 hp, my issue would be drivetrain durability (namely clutch and tranny) due to the torque and high hp.
It seems the 5.0 has been responding pretty decently to bolt on mods and tunes already, so it got me thinking, what do you all think the max estimated CRANK hp of the 5.0 would be without forced induction or spraying?
For the sake of it, let's also say has to be street legal so exhaust work requires at least high flow cats.
Livernois's 11.5:1 compression ratio forged pistons are said to be good for 15 hp by themselves. I'm no piston pro, so I'd be curious if through tuning that higher compression piston is worth more than that, otherwise $1500 + install costs on pistons that give you only 15 hp doesn't seem cost effective.
Intake
Headers
Full exhaust
Forged Pistons
Tune (on pump gas max 93 octane)
Even with high flow cats I'd think just that set up alone would be worth 60-70 crank hp, for a total of around 475-485 crank hp (catless pipes should get 500 hp no?)
When cams arrive it's going to go up from there.
Wonder if there is a shop in the process of making a top hp NA 5.0
I think a 475+ hp NA street legal 5.0 would be pretty bad@ss.
And once cams come out I'm sure the power levels will go above 500 quite easily.
What do you all think?
It seems the 5.0 has been responding pretty decently to bolt on mods and tunes already, so it got me thinking, what do you all think the max estimated CRANK hp of the 5.0 would be without forced induction or spraying?
For the sake of it, let's also say has to be street legal so exhaust work requires at least high flow cats.
Livernois's 11.5:1 compression ratio forged pistons are said to be good for 15 hp by themselves. I'm no piston pro, so I'd be curious if through tuning that higher compression piston is worth more than that, otherwise $1500 + install costs on pistons that give you only 15 hp doesn't seem cost effective.
Intake
Headers
Full exhaust
Forged Pistons
Tune (on pump gas max 93 octane)
Even with high flow cats I'd think just that set up alone would be worth 60-70 crank hp, for a total of around 475-485 crank hp (catless pipes should get 500 hp no?)
When cams arrive it's going to go up from there.
Wonder if there is a shop in the process of making a top hp NA 5.0
I think a 475+ hp NA street legal 5.0 would be pretty bad@ss.
And once cams come out I'm sure the power levels will go above 500 quite easily.
What do you all think?
2010 Boss 302R1 / 2012 Boss 302 Intake Manifold
Long Tube Headers and Off-Road Exhaust
Forged Pistons and Forged Sintered Metal Rods
Hotter Cams with Lightened Valvetrain
Race Tune
530 BHP SAE
With the mods you have listed minus the pistons:
Air Intake
Headers
Full Exhaust Including Cats
Tune
455-465 BHP
I think the Intake Manifold from the 2010 Boss 302R1 and 2012 Boss 302 would be a more effective mod than the pistons. You would likely want to revise the ICL and ECL in your tune to take better advantage of the improved breathing in the 6600+ rpm range. I suspect the Livernois Pistons are a comparison on a already tuned engine and a best case scenario.
OFF TOPIC
Rant Mode On:
Im a bit cynical on some of the numbers Ive seen quoted. Stock M6 cars can make from under 350 SAE rwhp to over 370 SAE rwhp depending on the individual car, rear axle ratio, miles on car and run conditions on the same dyno. I can swing the numbers as low as 359 SAE rwhp untuned and as high as 382 rwhp SAE Tuned just by varying coolant, oil, trans, rear axle temps and atmospheric conditions on my car. I can get 11 rwhp stock and 13 rwhp tuned without doing anything other than changing conditions. SAE Correction does not take into consideration power loss form low drivetrain fluid temps, heat soaked intake manifold, High IAT (relative to ambient) or reduced timing because of high IAT.
I could easily claim 23 rwhp or 0 rwhp on the tune but in fact its 11 rwhp peak (6500 and 6600 rpm) and 9 rwt peak (4400 rpm). +18 rwt at 6100 rpm and +20 rwt at 3200 rpm with an average gain of 15 rwhp between 5000-6500 rpm with conditions replicated as close as possible. The stock trough in timing at 5300 rpm has disappeared with miles on my car so I dont get the big gains some are getting their on low mile cars.
Now thats a pretty simple little tune (+5 degrees Max Timing, Stock AFR, SCT Base Tune on everything else) without all the development time some of the "Biggies" can do but Im not buying the 40+ rwhp tunes some are claiming until I see it personally on the same car, same dyno and same conditions.
Last edited by Gene K; 8/22/10 at 05:52 PM.
8/22/10, 05:50 PM
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I think you are right Gene in the full race form.
Aren't we already seeing 450 crank hp with intake, full exhaust and tune?
With headers I see the 465 you stated too, and the forged pistons at 11.5 compression the 480 I was guessing.
I'd love to see 500 crank hp (435-440 rwhp) on a totally streetable car.
Aren't we already seeing 450 crank hp with intake, full exhaust and tune?
With headers I see the 465 you stated too, and the forged pistons at 11.5 compression the 480 I was guessing.
I'd love to see 500 crank hp (435-440 rwhp) on a totally streetable car.
8/22/10, 06:00 PM
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Well, I have a full exhaust kit(Lt's, High flow cats, and 3" catback) waiting to be installed once my car gets back from the dealer. With the addition to the JLT intake soon to come. I am hoping for 425RWHP, which is very close to just about 500HP at the flywheel
8/22/10, 06:15 PM
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I would expect losses of closer to 12% on the stock 5.0 drivetrain at those power levels (Using Dynojet Numbers) with all drivetrain lubricants at full operating temps. So maybe 485 bhp under those running conditions if you manage 425 rwhp.
8/22/10, 06:27 PM
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8/22/10, 09:15 PM
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It will depend on how deep your pockets go. 
This is what I see hitting 500HP n/a:
Stock shortblock
Ported heads, cams, new valves, and springs
Boss 302 intake and injectors
CAI
Headers O/R X-pipe, 3" cat back
93 octane Tune or full race tune
7800+ RPM
If that doesn't hit 500 crank HP then higher compression will be needed...
I know in some cases with older engines you could shave the heads some and gain some compression. I wonder if you could do that with stock coyote heads? Ford claims it is a free-running engine so in the event of a broken timing chain the valves will not hit the piston. So there is some room to play with, cams will have a negative effect on this however.
This is what I see hitting 500HP n/a:
Stock shortblock
Ported heads, cams, new valves, and springs
Boss 302 intake and injectors
CAI
Headers O/R X-pipe, 3" cat back
93 octane Tune or full race tune
7800+ RPM
If that doesn't hit 500 crank HP then higher compression will be needed...
I know in some cases with older engines you could shave the heads some and gain some compression. I wonder if you could do that with stock coyote heads? Ford claims it is a free-running engine so in the event of a broken timing chain the valves will not hit the piston. So there is some room to play with, cams will have a negative effect on this however.
Last edited by FivePointO; 8/22/10 at 09:18 PM.
8/22/10, 09:57 PM
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That is a high reading, not properly calibrated dyno, plain and simple.
I also agree Gene, as I put in my post above about 12% loss on drivetrain on this car seems right.
The car is rated at 412 hp but got 416 during SAE testing. Let's say the average car makes 415 hp at crank. On a properly calibrated dyno that 365 rwhp.
Variance in break in, mileage, oil, air temps, engine spec variances, etc should yield the average car to make 360-370 rwhp.
I had a dyno day with a bunch of us 335i owners. We went from stock to tune.
Of the 11 manuals and 7 autos, there was a variance of 11 rwhp between the autos and 10 rwhp between the manuals when all were stock. All cars had 1100 to 5200 miles on the odometer.
And no the car with 5200 miles did not make the most power, it was mid pack.
So it's clear that just engine variance can make 10-12 hp variance between stock engines.
I'm sure the 5.0 is no different.
8/22/10, 11:25 PM
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I agree with you Driver72 on your last post about variances from car to car. I think the different quality of gas may add to the small differences in HP. Which only adds to the mix of different stock dyno numbers. 10% ethanal in our gas only makes it worse ( power wise ).
).
8/23/10, 07:41 AM
#11
OFF TOPIC
Rant Mode On:
Im a bit cynical on some of the numbers Ive seen quoted. Stock M6 cars can make from under 350 SAE rwhp to over 370 SAE rwhp depending on the individual car, rear axle ratio, miles on car and run conditions on the same dyno. I can swing the numbers as low as 359 SAE rwhp untuned and as high as 382 rwhp SAE Tuned just by varying coolant, oil, trans, rear axle temps and atmospheric conditions on my car. I can get 11 rwhp stock and 13 rwhp tuned without doing anything other than changing conditions. SAE Correction does not take into consideration power loss form low drivetrain fluid temps, heat soaked intake manifold, High IAT (relative to ambient) or reduced timing because of high IAT.
I could easily claim 23 rwhp or 0 rwhp on the tune but in fact its 11 rwhp peak (6500 and 6600 rpm) and 9 rwt peak (4400 rpm). +18 rwt at 6100 rpm and +20 rwt at 3200 rpm with an average gain of 15 rwhp between 5000-6500 rpm with conditions replicated as close as possible. The stock trough in timing at 5300 rpm has disappeared with miles on my car so I dont get the big gains some are getting their on low mile cars.
Now thats a pretty simple little tune (+5 degrees Max Timing, Stock AFR, SCT Base Tune on everything else) without all the development time some of the "Biggies" can do but Im not buying the 40+ rwhp tunes some are claiming until I see it personally on the same car, same dyno and same conditions.
Rant Mode On:
Im a bit cynical on some of the numbers Ive seen quoted. Stock M6 cars can make from under 350 SAE rwhp to over 370 SAE rwhp depending on the individual car, rear axle ratio, miles on car and run conditions on the same dyno. I can swing the numbers as low as 359 SAE rwhp untuned and as high as 382 rwhp SAE Tuned just by varying coolant, oil, trans, rear axle temps and atmospheric conditions on my car. I can get 11 rwhp stock and 13 rwhp tuned without doing anything other than changing conditions. SAE Correction does not take into consideration power loss form low drivetrain fluid temps, heat soaked intake manifold, High IAT (relative to ambient) or reduced timing because of high IAT.
I could easily claim 23 rwhp or 0 rwhp on the tune but in fact its 11 rwhp peak (6500 and 6600 rpm) and 9 rwt peak (4400 rpm). +18 rwt at 6100 rpm and +20 rwt at 3200 rpm with an average gain of 15 rwhp between 5000-6500 rpm with conditions replicated as close as possible. The stock trough in timing at 5300 rpm has disappeared with miles on my car so I dont get the big gains some are getting their on low mile cars.
Now thats a pretty simple little tune (+5 degrees Max Timing, Stock AFR, SCT Base Tune on everything else) without all the development time some of the "Biggies" can do but Im not buying the 40+ rwhp tunes some are claiming until I see it personally on the same car, same dyno and same conditions.
you are precisely right. that is exactly why im waiting for cool fall conditions, and a cold shop to dyno. zero heat soak, and ideal IAT's/ atmospheric conditions will put down killer numbers this fall.
no timing pull, no heat soak= big power numbers. just numbers, but hey its the game.
8/23/10, 07:43 AM
#12
He's on a SUPER optimistic dyno, no question. I think his dyno said he got like 39x stock.
That is a high reading, not properly calibrated dyno, plain and simple.
I also agree Gene, as I put in my post above about 12% loss on drivetrain on this car seems right.
The car is rated at 412 hp but got 416 during SAE testing. Let's say the average car makes 415 hp at crank. On a properly calibrated dyno that 365 rwhp.
Variance in break in, mileage, oil, air temps, engine spec variances, etc should yield the average car to make 360-370 rwhp.
I had a dyno day with a bunch of us 335i owners. We went from stock to tune.
Of the 11 manuals and 7 autos, there was a variance of 11 rwhp between the autos and 10 rwhp between the manuals when all were stock. All cars had 1100 to 5200 miles on the odometer.
And no the car with 5200 miles did not make the most power, it was mid pack.
So it's clear that just engine variance can make 10-12 hp variance between stock engines.
I'm sure the 5.0 is no different.
That is a high reading, not properly calibrated dyno, plain and simple.
I also agree Gene, as I put in my post above about 12% loss on drivetrain on this car seems right.
The car is rated at 412 hp but got 416 during SAE testing. Let's say the average car makes 415 hp at crank. On a properly calibrated dyno that 365 rwhp.
Variance in break in, mileage, oil, air temps, engine spec variances, etc should yield the average car to make 360-370 rwhp.
I had a dyno day with a bunch of us 335i owners. We went from stock to tune.
Of the 11 manuals and 7 autos, there was a variance of 11 rwhp between the autos and 10 rwhp between the manuals when all were stock. All cars had 1100 to 5200 miles on the odometer.
And no the car with 5200 miles did not make the most power, it was mid pack.
So it's clear that just engine variance can make 10-12 hp variance between stock engines.
I'm sure the 5.0 is no different.
there are enough 375-380rwhp cars to convince me its not just happy dynos.
8/23/10, 07:58 AM
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I'll probably try dynoing stock with about 500 miles on the car.
I know that, that is not ideal for a baseline tune as the car very well could make 4-5 rwhp more with a couple grand miles on it for full break in.
But I won't have the patience to drive the car 2000 miles stock before dynoing a baseline.
Then I may confirm it on another dyno that tuners and magazines (including Motor Trend and Edmunds) often use.
8/23/10, 09:39 AM
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And being a person who has dynoed my cars 100+ times and been with others, including tuners, while dynoing a few hundred more pulls on all kinds of dynos from Dynojets to Mustang dynos, to Maha's.
I KNOW there are an awfull lot of "happy" dynos (more often happy dyno owners who WANT high reading dynos to bring in customers who want bragging rights and dyno glory) to know better.
But if you guys want to believe that a completely stock 5.0 engine makes 402 rwhp or even 390+ rwhp (which is roughly 457 crank and 444+ crank horsepower) right from the factory, by all means keep on believing. But just don't state those things in public at a correctly calibrated dyno shop around a bunch of car guys, you may get laughed at) 445-455 crank hp in the 5.0 from the factory.....
Sorry, I couldn't help but laugh here too.
Last edited by Driver72; 8/23/10 at 09:42 AM.
8/24/10, 08:11 AM
#16
And there are enough 360-370 rwhp (and some a bit lower) dynos to convince me there ARE a lot of happy dynos.
And being a person who has dynoed my cars 100+ times and been with others, including tuners, while dynoing a few hundred more pulls on all kinds of dynos from Dynojets to Mustang dynos, to Maha's.
I KNOW there are an awfull lot of "happy" dynos (more often happy dyno owners who WANT high reading dynos to bring in customers who want bragging rights and dyno glory) to know better.
But if you guys want to believe that a completely stock 5.0 engine makes 402 rwhp or even 390+ rwhp (which is roughly 457 crank and 444+ crank horsepower) right from the factory, by all means keep on believing. But just don't state those things in public at a correctly calibrated dyno shop around a bunch of car guys, you may get laughed at) 445-455 crank hp in the 5.0 from the factory..... Sorry, I couldn't help but laugh here too.
And being a person who has dynoed my cars 100+ times and been with others, including tuners, while dynoing a few hundred more pulls on all kinds of dynos from Dynojets to Mustang dynos, to Maha's.
I KNOW there are an awfull lot of "happy" dynos (more often happy dyno owners who WANT high reading dynos to bring in customers who want bragging rights and dyno glory) to know better.
But if you guys want to believe that a completely stock 5.0 engine makes 402 rwhp or even 390+ rwhp (which is roughly 457 crank and 444+ crank horsepower) right from the factory, by all means keep on believing. But just don't state those things in public at a correctly calibrated dyno shop around a bunch of car guys, you may get laughed at) 445-455 crank hp in the 5.0 from the factory.....
Sorry, I couldn't help but laugh here too.Last edited by assasinator; 8/24/10 at 08:15 AM.
8/24/10, 08:13 AM
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8/24/10, 12:40 PM
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He's on a SUPER optimistic dyno, no question. I think his dyno said he got like 39x stock.
That is a high reading, not properly calibrated dyno, plain and simple.
I also agree Gene, as I put in my post above about 12% loss on drivetrain on this car seems right.
The car is rated at 412 hp but got 416 during SAE testing. Let's say the average car makes 415 hp at crank. On a properly calibrated dyno that 365 rwhp.
Variance in break in, mileage, oil, air temps, engine spec variances, etc should yield the average car to make 360-370 rwhp.
I had a dyno day with a bunch of us 335i owners. We went from stock to tune.
Of the 11 manuals and 7 autos, there was a variance of 11 rwhp between the autos and 10 rwhp between the manuals when all were stock. All cars had 1100 to 5200 miles on the odometer.
And no the car with 5200 miles did not make the most power, it was mid pack.
So it's clear that just engine variance can make 10-12 hp variance between stock engines.
I'm sure the 5.0 is no different.
That is a high reading, not properly calibrated dyno, plain and simple.
I also agree Gene, as I put in my post above about 12% loss on drivetrain on this car seems right.
The car is rated at 412 hp but got 416 during SAE testing. Let's say the average car makes 415 hp at crank. On a properly calibrated dyno that 365 rwhp.
Variance in break in, mileage, oil, air temps, engine spec variances, etc should yield the average car to make 360-370 rwhp.
I had a dyno day with a bunch of us 335i owners. We went from stock to tune.
Of the 11 manuals and 7 autos, there was a variance of 11 rwhp between the autos and 10 rwhp between the manuals when all were stock. All cars had 1100 to 5200 miles on the odometer.
And no the car with 5200 miles did not make the most power, it was mid pack.
So it's clear that just engine variance can make 10-12 hp variance between stock engines.
I'm sure the 5.0 is no different.
Last edited by todd03blown; 8/24/10 at 02:38 PM.
8/24/10, 01:10 PM
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Unfortunately, we haven't had the chance to put another manual trans car on the dyno multiple times to see if Shaun's car is a freak or ?? His car when brand new made 375 RWHP, after 2,000 hard miles it made 390 RWHP and was verified on both dynos.
Just as a comparison, a stock auto 2011 Mustang GT makes around 345-350 RWHP on this dyno, a Shelby GT500 makes around 440 RWHP, a 3V Mustang GT manual trans makes around 260 RWHP, and an LS3 Camaro makes 375 RWHP.
These numbers are what we see on other Dyno-Jet's from other shops as well. I can't explain Shaun's numbers, but it was on the dyno several times and did back them up.
We did have another manual trans car on the dyno that did have over 1,000 miles and it still made around 375 RWHP.
We have no reason to inflate numbers to make us look better. We spent a ton of money on the AWD dyno so we could have the latest technology and help us to develop our EcoBoost package without tuning with a wideband on the street. We also have 40+ cars in the shop now from all over the Country. In my opinion, a dyno number is a dyno number. As long as the car is baselined on the same dyno as is used after mods and you can see the gains made from the mods, who cares what the numbers are. If you want to know how it performs, go to the track.
Our automatic shop car doesn't make a big number and has 100% stock suspension (other than swaybar relocation brackets), stock airbox, longtube headers, catted mid-pipe, catback, 4.10, our custom tune and 15" Bogarts w/ drag radials and it goes 11.90 @ 117 mph. At our home track, even similarly modded manual trans cars aren't running that.
Regards,
Rick LeBlanc
Livernois Motorsports
Last edited by Rick@Livernois; 8/24/10 at 01:19 PM.