Parking brake freezing
2/19/06, 07:05 PM
#21
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NHstang @ February 19, 2006, 12:28 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I've had lots of cars do this. Just don't use the parking brake when it's going to be below freezing. You can't avoid getting the cables wet, they're exposed. Then they freeze to whatever they're touching. So unless you park on a hill and absolutely need the brake, just leave it in 1st.
[/b][/quote]
When a manual car is parked, the best gear to leave it in is reverse, not first. It's unlikely it could be moved, even if parked on a slight incline without the e-brake on.
I've had lots of cars do this. Just don't use the parking brake when it's going to be below freezing. You can't avoid getting the cables wet, they're exposed. Then they freeze to whatever they're touching. So unless you park on a hill and absolutely need the brake, just leave it in 1st.
[/b][/quote]
When a manual car is parked, the best gear to leave it in is reverse, not first. It's unlikely it could be moved, even if parked on a slight incline without the e-brake on.
2/19/06, 07:35 PM
#22
Legacy TMS Member
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the cable guy @ February 19, 2006, 8:08 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
When a manual car is parked, the best gear to leave it in is reverse, not first. It's unlikely it could be moved, even if parked on a slight incline without the e-brake on.
[/b][/quote]
I think 1st and reverse gearing is pretty close in these cars, so it really shouldnt matter.
I would recommend using the E-brake often to keep it lubricated, but refrain on freezing days when you dont need it.
When a manual car is parked, the best gear to leave it in is reverse, not first. It's unlikely it could be moved, even if parked on a slight incline without the e-brake on.
[/b][/quote]
I think 1st and reverse gearing is pretty close in these cars, so it really shouldnt matter.
I would recommend using the E-brake often to keep it lubricated, but refrain on freezing days when you dont need it.
2/19/06, 07:53 PM
#23
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I don't use parking brakes often, not much need in my neighborhood. Although I have never one freeze up due to cold weather, now corrosion would be a reason. A parking brake needs to be used from time to time just to keep in working order. And I never think to lube one, although it makes sense.
I would like to know where the assembly is made. All these cost cuttings going on are not for the best, but people always look for the lower cost item. With that in mind it is very reasonable to say we are the cause of our product problems.
I would like to know where the assembly is made. All these cost cuttings going on are not for the best, but people always look for the lower cost item. With that in mind it is very reasonable to say we are the cause of our product problems.
2/19/06, 08:56 PM
#24
I used my parking brake every day for 455 days straight. So it's not like it was "out of practice"...
2/20/06, 06:19 AM
#25
GTR Member
Sorry to hear about your problems. I guess Ford doesn't like getting repeat customers. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nonono.gif[/img]
I still can't belive that Ford and the dealer left you out in the cold...literally.
I still can't belive that Ford and the dealer left you out in the cold...literally.
2/20/06, 06:30 AM
#26
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donkey @ February 19, 2006, 3:39 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
The parking brake assembly and all cables were replaced and lubed per spec. The brake fluid was changed, all adjusted to spec. The cable itself is free, just went back up to dealer to remove some things from the car. The brake still won't release but it is also still below freezing here. I have owned many cars, and rented a ton of cars up north in the dead of winter and not one has ever had a frozen parking brake.
It's quite possible I'm expecting too much from this car. Things like it start and run every time I get in, and that the dealer at least offer to drive me home after it has left me stranded in 20 degree weather.
It's not the product. I fully understand that things break and parts fail, stuff happens that's life. What really matters is that a company have processes and procedures in place to ensure at least a minimal level of customer satisfaction and that they stand behind their product. Based upon my direct experience with four Ford dealers and three seperate times being stranded by this car, Ford has set the bar pretty low. And yes I understand what I was getting in to by buying one of the first 1000 units of a new model.
I started making excuses the second day I owned the car. When it would not start on day 2 and had to be towed back to the dealer, I waited patiently for 2 days for them to fly someone with a part out to fix it. I also excuse the many obvious NVH issues. Sure the struts pop after being fixed, and that shimmy in the rear end is "normal" and no I don't mind resetting the clock every now and then after the 3rd new radio resets. That whine from the transmission does bring back great memories of my grandmothers 1978 oldsmobile. And on occasion when the engine cuts out when I really have to move, oh well that's just some saftey system protecting my car. So what I said when it took 5 days to get brake parts. Oh that handle always falls off when you move the seat to get in the back. [i] I could go on...[/i]
Part of me will be jealous the next time I see a Mustang GT at the light next to me. This was my first Mustang and I really enjoyed driving it. Hopefully I'll get the opportunity to own another one some day but it's going to be a while before I ever think about buying a Ford again.
If anyone is looking for a black on tan 05 GT with 29,500 miles that has everything but the shaker 1000, let me know. I am less than 5 days away from accepting the trade in offer. Car is in Nashville, TN.
[/b][/quote]
Great ad! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] How much do you want for it?
The parking brake assembly and all cables were replaced and lubed per spec. The brake fluid was changed, all adjusted to spec. The cable itself is free, just went back up to dealer to remove some things from the car. The brake still won't release but it is also still below freezing here. I have owned many cars, and rented a ton of cars up north in the dead of winter and not one has ever had a frozen parking brake.
It's quite possible I'm expecting too much from this car. Things like it start and run every time I get in, and that the dealer at least offer to drive me home after it has left me stranded in 20 degree weather.
It's not the product. I fully understand that things break and parts fail, stuff happens that's life. What really matters is that a company have processes and procedures in place to ensure at least a minimal level of customer satisfaction and that they stand behind their product. Based upon my direct experience with four Ford dealers and three seperate times being stranded by this car, Ford has set the bar pretty low. And yes I understand what I was getting in to by buying one of the first 1000 units of a new model.
I started making excuses the second day I owned the car. When it would not start on day 2 and had to be towed back to the dealer, I waited patiently for 2 days for them to fly someone with a part out to fix it. I also excuse the many obvious NVH issues. Sure the struts pop after being fixed, and that shimmy in the rear end is "normal" and no I don't mind resetting the clock every now and then after the 3rd new radio resets. That whine from the transmission does bring back great memories of my grandmothers 1978 oldsmobile. And on occasion when the engine cuts out when I really have to move, oh well that's just some saftey system protecting my car. So what I said when it took 5 days to get brake parts. Oh that handle always falls off when you move the seat to get in the back. [i] I could go on...[/i]
Part of me will be jealous the next time I see a Mustang GT at the light next to me. This was my first Mustang and I really enjoyed driving it. Hopefully I'll get the opportunity to own another one some day but it's going to be a while before I ever think about buying a Ford again.
If anyone is looking for a black on tan 05 GT with 29,500 miles that has everything but the shaker 1000, let me know. I am less than 5 days away from accepting the trade in offer. Car is in Nashville, TN.
[/b][/quote]
Great ad! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] How much do you want for it?
2/20/06, 07:27 AM
#27
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Since I grew up in Upstate NY I guess I figured it was common knowledge to not use your parking brake during the winter. (no matter the make of your car) I've owned import cars and I don't believe it's a "Ford problem" However the dealership leaving you out in the cold IS a problem. I'd be on the phone with the general manager of that dealership so fast... wouldn't be funny.
I wouldn't base your opinion of all S197s on that one unit. Sounds like a lemon. Have them hook you up with a nice new one.
I wouldn't base your opinion of all S197s on that one unit. Sounds like a lemon. Have them hook you up with a nice new one.
2/20/06, 04:05 PM
#28
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My car has done the same exact thing, but it seems like only the drivers rear is frozen, all four rotors/calipers were frozen, (my car has not been driven much since Oct and sits outside). So yesterday I get in it to take it out and its locked up I tried hitting it with the windshield de ice stuff and just got it to unlock somewhat.
Drive it just under a mile and the rear drivers side is smoking, So I take it to the closest heated spray car wash and hose it down, so now my car has frozen water droplets all over it, the brake still riding the rotor and then finally it releases.
Of course my rotor is scared and will need to be turned.
Lesson is, while the car sits for a week or two at a time without being driven and while its below freezing, to not put on the Ebrake I guess.
Sucks, but what can you do it below freezing outside.
My Tundra no problems, but I drive it practically every day.
Drive it just under a mile and the rear drivers side is smoking, So I take it to the closest heated spray car wash and hose it down, so now my car has frozen water droplets all over it, the brake still riding the rotor and then finally it releases.
Of course my rotor is scared and will need to be turned.
Lesson is, while the car sits for a week or two at a time without being driven and while its below freezing, to not put on the Ebrake I guess.
Sucks, but what can you do it below freezing outside.
My Tundra no problems, but I drive it practically every day.
2/20/06, 05:07 PM
#29
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(05silverGT @ February 20, 2006, 9:30 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Since I grew up in Upstate NY I guess I figured it was common knowledge to not use your parking brake during the winter. (no matter the make of your car) I've owned import cars and I don't believe it's a "Ford problem" However the dealership leaving you out in the cold IS a problem. I'd be on the phone with the general manager of that dealership so fast... wouldn't be funny.
I wouldn't base your opinion of all S197s on that one unit. Sounds like a lemon. Have them hook you up with a nice new one.
[/b][/quote]
My Toyota Truck had the e-brake freeze sometimes. The most likely time was when it was a little above freezing outside during the day and then way below at night and the next few days. All cars can have this problem. My last Buick LeSabre with every option had more problems than the Mustang in question and I didn't get rid of it until the oldest kid wrecked it. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img] The point is, your troubles are not only happening in Fords. Just think of the thoughts going through my head when at 26k miles I took the Buick to the dealer leaking like the Exxon Valdez and had the service writer (a friend) tell me," They do that sometimes." [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]
Since I grew up in Upstate NY I guess I figured it was common knowledge to not use your parking brake during the winter. (no matter the make of your car) I've owned import cars and I don't believe it's a "Ford problem" However the dealership leaving you out in the cold IS a problem. I'd be on the phone with the general manager of that dealership so fast... wouldn't be funny.
I wouldn't base your opinion of all S197s on that one unit. Sounds like a lemon. Have them hook you up with a nice new one.
[/b][/quote]
My Toyota Truck had the e-brake freeze sometimes. The most likely time was when it was a little above freezing outside during the day and then way below at night and the next few days. All cars can have this problem. My last Buick LeSabre with every option had more problems than the Mustang in question and I didn't get rid of it until the oldest kid wrecked it. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img] The point is, your troubles are not only happening in Fords. Just think of the thoughts going through my head when at 26k miles I took the Buick to the dealer leaking like the Exxon Valdez and had the service writer (a friend) tell me," They do that sometimes." [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]
2/20/06, 05:12 PM
#30
Legacy TMS Member
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NosferatuVI @ February 20, 2006, 5:08 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
My car has done the same exact thing, but it seems like only the drivers rear is frozen, all four rotors/calipers were frozen, (my car has not been driven much since Oct and sits outside). So yesterday I get in it to take it out and its locked up I tried hitting it with the windshield de ice stuff and just got it to unlock somewhat.
Drive it just under a mile and the rear drivers side is smoking, So I take it to the closest heated spray car wash and hose it down, so now my car has frozen water droplets all over it, the brake still riding the rotor and then finally it releases.
Of course my rotor is scared and will need to be turned.
Lesson is, while the car sits for a week or two at a time without being driven and while its below freezing, to not put on the Ebrake I guess.
Sucks, but what can you do it below freezing outside.
My Tundra no problems, but I drive it practically every day.
[/b][/quote]
Im not sure how the Mustangs emergency brakes work, but most cars with 4 whl disc dont use the normal brakes (caliper) Theres a small set of brake shoes on the hub that when you apply they push on the inside/hub of the rotor.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/disc-brake3.htm
Some cars with four-wheel disc brakes have a separate drum brake integrated into the hub of the rear wheels. This drum brake is only for the emergency brake system, and it is actuated only by the cable; it has no hydraulics.
My car has done the same exact thing, but it seems like only the drivers rear is frozen, all four rotors/calipers were frozen, (my car has not been driven much since Oct and sits outside). So yesterday I get in it to take it out and its locked up I tried hitting it with the windshield de ice stuff and just got it to unlock somewhat.
Drive it just under a mile and the rear drivers side is smoking, So I take it to the closest heated spray car wash and hose it down, so now my car has frozen water droplets all over it, the brake still riding the rotor and then finally it releases.
Of course my rotor is scared and will need to be turned.
Lesson is, while the car sits for a week or two at a time without being driven and while its below freezing, to not put on the Ebrake I guess.
Sucks, but what can you do it below freezing outside.
My Tundra no problems, but I drive it practically every day.
[/b][/quote]
Im not sure how the Mustangs emergency brakes work, but most cars with 4 whl disc dont use the normal brakes (caliper) Theres a small set of brake shoes on the hub that when you apply they push on the inside/hub of the rotor.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/disc-brake3.htm
Some cars with four-wheel disc brakes have a separate drum brake integrated into the hub of the rear wheels. This drum brake is only for the emergency brake system, and it is actuated only by the cable; it has no hydraulics.
2/20/06, 08:39 PM
#31
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This morning I went to the dealership to drop off my key as no one asked for it Saturday. The service advisor tried to move the car, and it stalled. Then it would not start. Good times.
They got the parking brake unstuck, reinstalled the cable and fully lubricated it blaming moisture as the cause of the problem.
Nowhere in the owners manual does it mention to not use the parking brake in cold weather. It also fails to mention that Ford will assume liability after my car rolls off of a cliff or in to an intersection after it popped out of gear because I did not set the parking brake due to the fact that it was cold that day.
They kept the car overnight, I guess to see what happens - but the low tonight will be just 27. The startup issues were due to a flooded engine, which is strange but who knows.
The service advisor was very apologetic, and gave me phone numbers to call the next time I am stranded. I also have an appointment to see a few key people at the dealership tomorrow, that's going to be fun.
My wife's honda accord has no issues with the parking brake. Even checked my Honda 300EX, John Deere tractor and with several neighbors with varying vehicle types including one with 5 Mustangs - no issues. And there were no other cars at the dealership with this issue, and they have never seen it before. Weather specific to this model or shared with others, this is the result of a design defect.
I spent another whole day driving various new cars, and no one makes anything close to a Mustang. But wow that C6 is fast.
They got the parking brake unstuck, reinstalled the cable and fully lubricated it blaming moisture as the cause of the problem.
Nowhere in the owners manual does it mention to not use the parking brake in cold weather. It also fails to mention that Ford will assume liability after my car rolls off of a cliff or in to an intersection after it popped out of gear because I did not set the parking brake due to the fact that it was cold that day.
They kept the car overnight, I guess to see what happens - but the low tonight will be just 27. The startup issues were due to a flooded engine, which is strange but who knows.
The service advisor was very apologetic, and gave me phone numbers to call the next time I am stranded. I also have an appointment to see a few key people at the dealership tomorrow, that's going to be fun.
My wife's honda accord has no issues with the parking brake. Even checked my Honda 300EX, John Deere tractor and with several neighbors with varying vehicle types including one with 5 Mustangs - no issues. And there were no other cars at the dealership with this issue, and they have never seen it before. Weather specific to this model or shared with others, this is the result of a design defect.
I spent another whole day driving various new cars, and no one makes anything close to a Mustang. But wow that C6 is fast.
2/21/06, 10:06 AM
#32
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donkey @ February 20, 2006, 9:42 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
And there were no other cars at the dealership with this issue, and they have never seen it before. Weather specific to this model or shared with others, this is the result of a design defect.
[/b][/quote]
That tells me it's NOT a design defect.
It ain't right, but it doesn't sound like an inherent problem.
And there were no other cars at the dealership with this issue, and they have never seen it before. Weather specific to this model or shared with others, this is the result of a design defect.
[/b][/quote]
That tells me it's NOT a design defect.
It ain't right, but it doesn't sound like an inherent problem.
2/21/06, 11:20 AM
#33
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Check out this thread. I had the same problem with my stang. The problem seems to be fixed for me. I haven't had the brake stick since the last time it was fixed, but we've had a suprising lack of sub-freezing days this winter. Keep taking it back to the dealer until you are satisfied with the results.
-TRB
-TRB
2/21/06, 04:07 PM
#34
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TorchRedBeauty @ February 21, 2006, 12:23 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Check out this thread. I had the same problem with my stang. The problem seems to be fixed for me. I haven't had the brake stick since the last time it was fixed, but we've had a suprising lack of sub-freezing days this winter. Keep taking it back to the dealer until you are satisfied with the results.
-TRB
[/b][/quote]
Thank you! For some reason I could not find that thread but I knew I had seen it. Glad to know I'm not the only one that is bothered with this issue. I had a conversation with the service director today, he decided to order a new cable for me only after I talked to him and gave me my car back. Two more times and it's legally a lemon. I'm still not happy with the way I am being treated by the dealership, you are not a customer there until you purchase a car from them. They should remove the Ford sign as far as I am concerned. He suggested I contact the owner of the dealership. Ding, round 3! Either my car is defective, there is a design defect, a supplier quality control issue, manufacturing error or this is all just bad luck. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img]
Check out this thread. I had the same problem with my stang. The problem seems to be fixed for me. I haven't had the brake stick since the last time it was fixed, but we've had a suprising lack of sub-freezing days this winter. Keep taking it back to the dealer until you are satisfied with the results.
-TRB
[/b][/quote]
Thank you! For some reason I could not find that thread but I knew I had seen it. Glad to know I'm not the only one that is bothered with this issue. I had a conversation with the service director today, he decided to order a new cable for me only after I talked to him and gave me my car back. Two more times and it's legally a lemon. I'm still not happy with the way I am being treated by the dealership, you are not a customer there until you purchase a car from them. They should remove the Ford sign as far as I am concerned. He suggested I contact the owner of the dealership. Ding, round 3! Either my car is defective, there is a design defect, a supplier quality control issue, manufacturing error or this is all just bad luck. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img]
2/22/06, 12:31 AM
#35
I'm wondering, after reading that other thread... is there a way to possibly seal those springs better? Or has anyone been able to "over-engage" the ebrake to "break" it loose? I'd like to avoid this problem again, but if there's an easier-than-replacement fix it'd be nice to know...
2/22/06, 08:52 AM
#36
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Enfynet @ February 22, 2006, 2:34 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I'm wondering, after reading that other thread... is there a way to possibly seal those springs better? Or has anyone been able to "over-engage" the ebrake to "break" it loose? I'd like to avoid this problem again, but if there's an easier-than-replacement fix it'd be nice to know...
[/b][/quote]
I tried doing this (over-engaging the brake) with mine when it was frozen, but had no luck. I didn't pull too hard, though, since I didn't want to break anything or stretch the cables. So, it may be possible with a little more persuasion. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/04.gif[/img]
-TRB
I'm wondering, after reading that other thread... is there a way to possibly seal those springs better? Or has anyone been able to "over-engage" the ebrake to "break" it loose? I'd like to avoid this problem again, but if there's an easier-than-replacement fix it'd be nice to know...
[/b][/quote]
I tried doing this (over-engaging the brake) with mine when it was frozen, but had no luck. I didn't pull too hard, though, since I didn't want to break anything or stretch the cables. So, it may be possible with a little more persuasion. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/04.gif[/img]
-TRB
2/22/06, 04:12 PM
#37
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donkey @ February 21, 2006, 5:10 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I'm still not happy with the way I am being treated by the dealership, you are not a customer there until you purchase a car from them. [/b][/quote]
If that's something they said, it's wrong, if they've even implied that it's wrong. This isn't "Good Will Warranty" work here, it's straight FACTORY warranty. They are being paid for it. There shouldn't be any attitude. Where you got the car from has no bearing, you could have moved to a different city, or didn't like the selling dealership's service department.
They should be trying to get and keep you as a customer for your next purchase.
I'm still not happy with the way I am being treated by the dealership, you are not a customer there until you purchase a car from them. [/b][/quote]
If that's something they said, it's wrong, if they've even implied that it's wrong. This isn't "Good Will Warranty" work here, it's straight FACTORY warranty. They are being paid for it. There shouldn't be any attitude. Where you got the car from has no bearing, you could have moved to a different city, or didn't like the selling dealership's service department.
They should be trying to get and keep you as a customer for your next purchase.
2/24/06, 01:09 PM
#38
Donkey, sorry to hear about your problems but it would take more then that to seperate me from my Stang. I never use the parking break in my Toyota Truck in the winter because when I first got it the parking break was frozen and the dealer had to thaw it for me to drive it home (This was right after I signed the paper work to buy it) Funny you mention trouble starting though, mine sometimes does not start in the cold, is it the same with yours? Though my father had a 2001 Toyota Avalon and the engine was "flooded" a few times, I posted somewhere in here all the problems my family has had with Toyota, so this is not a Ford issue and to be honest GM is WAY worse with service and lemons then Ford, from what I hear from people who buy GM. Still I hope you keep the car, I think even in a supposed "perfect" foreign car you will miss this one.
2/24/06, 08:43 PM
#39
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(grrr428 @ February 22, 2006, 5:15 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
They should be trying to get and keep you as a customer for your next purchase.
[/b][/quote]
It's not exactly rocket science, is it? You would think they would understand this, and I could not agree more since it's time for my wife to get a new car and we WERE going to get a new Explorer but now...
I tried to advance the brake further to get it to break loose, and realized that it's like a ratchet strap - the harder you pull, the tighter it gets until it hits a maximum and will not go further. I unknowingly found out that quick acceleration to 70 MPH sure gets them unstuck quickly. Just watch out for the resulting flaming braking parts. But also a testament to the braking system in the car, I drove over 1200 miles at interstate speeds and never noticed the fact that I had no rear brakes, even had to stop quickly a few times.
I have calmed down and am not doing anything irrational until I have a resolution, I just like the car too much and will bring my service business elsewhere. I just can't rationalize spending the $ for a Corvette either, and the same dealer owns the chevy store also so that's not going to change much. It's about to be spring time anyway so it won't really matter what has the chance of freezing. I also took a new position at work that allows me to rent or fly wherever I go so most days it will be parked anyway and I'll be stuck driving whatever is on the Hertz lot. Good thing they rent Mustangs...thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions!
They should be trying to get and keep you as a customer for your next purchase.
[/b][/quote]
It's not exactly rocket science, is it? You would think they would understand this, and I could not agree more since it's time for my wife to get a new car and we WERE going to get a new Explorer but now...
I tried to advance the brake further to get it to break loose, and realized that it's like a ratchet strap - the harder you pull, the tighter it gets until it hits a maximum and will not go further. I unknowingly found out that quick acceleration to 70 MPH sure gets them unstuck quickly. Just watch out for the resulting flaming braking parts. But also a testament to the braking system in the car, I drove over 1200 miles at interstate speeds and never noticed the fact that I had no rear brakes, even had to stop quickly a few times.
I have calmed down and am not doing anything irrational until I have a resolution, I just like the car too much and will bring my service business elsewhere. I just can't rationalize spending the $ for a Corvette either, and the same dealer owns the chevy store also so that's not going to change much. It's about to be spring time anyway so it won't really matter what has the chance of freezing. I also took a new position at work that allows me to rent or fly wherever I go so most days it will be parked anyway and I'll be stuck driving whatever is on the Hertz lot. Good thing they rent Mustangs...thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions!
3/1/06, 08:16 PM
#40
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Join Date: November 27, 2004
Location: Visalia Ca.
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[attachmentid=46184]
This may be usefull
This may be usefull