Beware. Your car may help someone get "lawyered" up
4/6/07, 09:35 AM
#1
Beware. Your car may help someone get "lawyered" up
Did anyone notice the following, "ominous" section, in their Mustang Owner's Manual? Basically the data recorders in your car may be used by law enforcement or people wishing to sue you. Maybe it's no surprise to you. I just thought I'd mention it, I don't know if there has been any discussion about it already.
Are the "event data recorders", and the ECU the same thing? Or is it a separate module? If it's the same module, does the recorded data become lost whenever the ECU is reflashed with a new tune?
•
Are the "event data recorders", and the ECU the same thing? Or is it a separate module? If it's the same module, does the recorded data become lost whenever the ECU is reflashed with a new tune?
Originally Posted by 2007 Mustang Owner's Manual pg7-8
Event Data Recording
Other modules in your vehicle — event data recorders — are capable of
collecting and storing data during a crash or near crash event. The
recorded information may assist in the investigation of such an event.
The modules may record information about both the vehicle and the
occupants, potentially including information such as:
Other modules in your vehicle — event data recorders — are capable of
collecting and storing data during a crash or near crash event. The
recorded information may assist in the investigation of such an event.
The modules may record information about both the vehicle and the
occupants, potentially including information such as:
•
how various systems in your vehicle were operating;
•
whether or not the driver and passenger seatbelts were buckled;
•
how far (if at all) the driver was depressing the accelerator and/or the
brake pedal;
•
•
how fast the vehicle was traveling; and
•
where the driver was positioning the steering wheel.
To access this information, special equipment must be directly connected
to the recording modules. Ford Motor Company and Ford of Canada do
not access event data recorder information without obtaining consent,
unless pursuant to court order or where required by law enforcement,
other government authorities or other third parties acting with lawful
authority. Other parties may seek to access the information
independently of Ford Motor Company and Ford of Canada.
to the recording modules. Ford Motor Company and Ford of Canada do
not access event data recorder information without obtaining consent,
unless pursuant to court order or where required by law enforcement,
other government authorities or other third parties acting with lawful
authority. Other parties may seek to access the information
independently of Ford Motor Company and Ford of Canada.
4/6/07, 12:27 PM
#3
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Someone in our fd pickup truck hit a minivan and they analized the "black box" as some call it. Apparently it says exact speed and everything. That thing is amazing. However I am not sure if it is accepted in court. It doesn't seem like it would be to me as polygraphs aren't either.
4/6/07, 12:31 PM
#4
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If it comes to that, if someone's suing you and their vehicle doesn't have a "black box" as well, no way in heck should they be allowed access to the data from your car for their case. Let them have the burden of proof.
4/6/07, 12:47 PM
#5
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I would claim dumb if ever asked aboutit in that situation. Besides they would have to sue my insurance co not me directly, which would cancel my policy etc. but they have more expensive lawyers than me, let them earn their monies like I have to.
4/6/07, 12:49 PM
#6
Mach 1 Member
Did anyone notice the following, "ominous" section, in their Mustang Owner's Manual? Basically the data recorders in your car may be used by law enforcement or people wishing to sue you. Maybe it's no surprise to you. I just thought I'd mention it, I don't know if there has been any discussion about it already.
Are the "event data recorders", and the ECU the same thing? Or is it a separate module? If it's the same module, does the recorded data become lost whenever the ECU is reflashed with a new tune?
[/left]
Are the "event data recorders", and the ECU the same thing? Or is it a separate module? If it's the same module, does the recorded data become lost whenever the ECU is reflashed with a new tune?
[/left]
I admit that I don't know much about the system installed in our cars, but I DO know about the system we have had in our ambulances since 2002, and the system we use is more advanced and records more information then I believe the system in our cars records
http://www.roadsafety.com/
4/6/07, 01:02 PM
#7
Mach 1 Member
Someone in our fd pickup truck hit a minivan and they analized the "black box" as some call it. Apparently it says exact speed and everything. That thing is amazing. However I am not sure if it is accepted in court. It doesn't seem like it would be to me as polygraphs aren't either.
We had a case several years ago where once of our ambulances was responding to an emergency w/ lights/siren, came to a stop at a red light (company policy) then started to slowly cross the intersection when they were involved in an accident.
Other driver and witnesses claimed the ambulance ran the red light at about 30 MPH and was not using lights/siren at the time.
Data downloaded from http://www.roadsafety.com/ computer showed the ambulance had been using lights/siren and had stopped for several seconds prior to the accident and had be moving at about 10-15 MPH at time of accident.
I guess what I'm trying to say (and I mentioned this in my other post) if you're not doing anything wrong then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
4/6/07, 04:30 PM
#8
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Yeah its a good policy we use that here, thats one instance when they are good, when I am driving home on the highway at 3am and noone is around for a cop to use it against me is b.s.
Also if an accident is your fault a cop will note that on the report, but in most cases witnesses are not going to claim you didnt stop and it was still the emergency vehicles fault, although the other person didn't yeild to an emergency vehicle nd can be ticketed as well.
Also if an accident is your fault a cop will note that on the report, but in most cases witnesses are not going to claim you didnt stop and it was still the emergency vehicles fault, although the other person didn't yeild to an emergency vehicle nd can be ticketed as well.
4/6/07, 05:04 PM
#9
Team Mustang Source
Cops don't and can't use the black box info to help write a ticket if you don't have an accident. The data recorders only activate in the event of a crash anyway. If there is no "event", there is no data stored.
4/6/07, 05:57 PM
#11
Mach 1 Member
Yeah its a good policy we use that here, thats one instance when they are good, when I am driving home on the highway at 3am and noone is around for a cop to use it against me is b.s.
The system (Road Safety) we use at work stores all data for at least a week when the system downloads data into the main computer. But in the event of a driving-related incident the supervisior can download data with a laptop. All drivers are issued a fob to logon to the system so the company can monitor ALL drivers, and they printout a log for the drivers to review.
Also if an accident is your fault a cop will note that on the report, but in most cases witnesses are not going to claim you didnt stop and it was still the emergency vehicles fault, although the other person didn't yeild to an emergency vehicle nd can be ticketed as well.
The system (Road Safety) we use at work stores all data for at least a week when the system downloads data into the main computer. But in the event of a driving-related incident the supervisior can download data with a laptop. All drivers are issued a fob to logon to the system so the company can monitor ALL drivers, and they printout a log for the drivers to review.
Also if an accident is your fault a cop will note that on the report, but in most cases witnesses are not going to claim you didnt stop and it was still the emergency vehicles fault, although the other person didn't yeild to an emergency vehicle nd can be ticketed as well.
If there is NO EVENT then the police wouldn't be involved so why worry about stored data in this case.
4/6/07, 11:26 PM
#12
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not only police, the other concern mentioned is about "lawyered-up" people potentially using that data against you for whatever reason although you're right about the NO EVENT. only uses for this feature i can think of are; insurance claim investigations, lawsuits - in the event of a major accident, and possibly data collection pertaining to effectiveness of on-board vehicle safety systems/structural integrity in an crash. IIRC Volvo has/had(?) a team (in Sweden) that investigated crash performance of their vehicles if one of them were involved in a major accident by actually checking over the vehicle - this is another tool they could use for more accurate info. for designing a safer vehicle. maybe the whole Explorer/Firestone mess also resulted in this as another means for Ford to cover its rear...
4/8/07, 12:28 PM
#13
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The thing is constantly recording , kind of like a giant buffer its always full of info but dumps the oldest info as the new comes in . I rember that its something like 15 minutes. Time magazine had a storie on this some time ago. Ford and GM were the early adopters.
Jay
Jay
4/9/07, 03:03 PM
#14
I guess what I'm trying to say (and I mentioned this in my other post) if you're not doing anything wrong then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
4/10/07, 08:26 AM
#15
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After an accident it is important that your vehicle be taken into your custody or that of someone or shop you trust. DO NOT let it be towed by the responding tow truck or police to public impound lot. Once the vehicle is back in your custody, it will take a court order (which can be challenged by your atty) to get the black box out of the car. No matter what happens, that box is YOUR property and cannot simply be confiscated by law enforcement or another party to an accident. It can be requested by court order through process.
4/10/07, 03:30 PM
#16
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My neighbor is an engineer that works specifically in accident reconstruction. He was actually working with these black boxes a few months ago. According to him, only the car manufacturers have the ability to decode the information on the boxes and they are extremely protective of the equipment needed to decode them. It was very rare for the company to allow him to use one of the machines for a case. The one he used only recorded the information at time of airbag deployment. I think it was a truck and it told speed, position of brake and throttle pedals and if the seatbelts were on.
The short version is, he believes the manufacturers have these simply to protect themselves from lawsuits.
The short version is, he believes the manufacturers have these simply to protect themselves from lawsuits.
4/10/07, 04:44 PM
#17
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Everyone's seems to be concerned with their own car's information, but if someone else caused you to be in an accident, but they blame you, would you want to be able to prove their guilt using THEIR stored data?
4/14/07, 04:27 PM
#18
Exactly
Dont drive 107mph in a 25 and you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Do you think in a typical fender bender they are going to go through the trouble? The police accident report is all I have ever seen used in court, someone would have to have been killed mysteriously without a shread of physical evidence for them to dig that deep into the evidence. Is the major complaint here that if you are doing something irresponsible and stupid that beyond the obvious your computer is going to tell on you? If your daughter is killed by a drunk flying down the road you would want the evidence if it means he walks with no living witness. It can also be used to determine if the manufacturer of a car is liable for a failure in the safety devices. Every modern car has this system. Accident scenes are typically pretty self-explanitory.
Dont drive 107mph in a 25 and you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Do you think in a typical fender bender they are going to go through the trouble? The police accident report is all I have ever seen used in court, someone would have to have been killed mysteriously without a shread of physical evidence for them to dig that deep into the evidence. Is the major complaint here that if you are doing something irresponsible and stupid that beyond the obvious your computer is going to tell on you? If your daughter is killed by a drunk flying down the road you would want the evidence if it means he walks with no living witness. It can also be used to determine if the manufacturer of a car is liable for a failure in the safety devices. Every modern car has this system. Accident scenes are typically pretty self-explanitory.
4/15/07, 09:26 PM
#19
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Most of these systems are tied to airbag sensors. They record several seconds worth of information to identify sudden changes in velocity which tell the vehicle whether to trigger the airbag(s). As part of this function, they often also record whether you were on the brake, gas, as well as the speed of your vehicle for up to about 5 seconds prior to a triggering event (sudden change in velocity).
The systems ( I believe) do not record information if there is no triggering event, i.e., sudden change in velocity.
The information is available to a variety of persons trained in downloading and obtaining the information, not just police.
The information is also usually acceptable in court, although accident reports are not usually, contrary to many people's beliefs....
If you are sued as the result f an auto accident and there is a significant question as to liability, the information will be subject to discovery by the other party, whether you like it or not. And if you have tampered with the device, it will look even worse than if the device says you were doing 10 over at the time of the accident.
I agree that if you are not breaking the law you don't need to be worried about what may be recorded, but i also agree that I am NOT pleased that most new (post 1995) vehicles contain event data recorders. Call me paranoid, but when combined with navigation systems which can locate your vehicle at any time, this is a step in the wrong direction.....
The systems ( I believe) do not record information if there is no triggering event, i.e., sudden change in velocity.
The information is available to a variety of persons trained in downloading and obtaining the information, not just police.
The information is also usually acceptable in court, although accident reports are not usually, contrary to many people's beliefs....
If you are sued as the result f an auto accident and there is a significant question as to liability, the information will be subject to discovery by the other party, whether you like it or not. And if you have tampered with the device, it will look even worse than if the device says you were doing 10 over at the time of the accident.
I agree that if you are not breaking the law you don't need to be worried about what may be recorded, but i also agree that I am NOT pleased that most new (post 1995) vehicles contain event data recorders. Call me paranoid, but when combined with navigation systems which can locate your vehicle at any time, this is a step in the wrong direction.....