Naw, I was only kidding.

I thought I made it clear this is not a conversation about price. It is a conversation about a 6-cylinder Toyota with 277 ft lbs of torque beating a V8 powered Mustang with 320 ft lbs of torque. Mechanicals vs. mechanicals. YOU injected price into the equation, not me.

But if it's "value" you want to discuss, I think you may be laboring under an erroneous precept, so read on...

Frankly, I'm sick of the "Who cares, our cars win hands down when you factor the price into it" argument. We're not talking about pitting our Stangs against Vettes or Vipers or Ferraris here. We're talking about a tarted-up Toyota. Price won't help you at the dragstrip or the light. Course, I guess you can always roll down your window and yell to the guy in the IS350 who just dusted you: "Oh YEAH?! Well mine COST less than yours, so there!"

Lots of satisfaction in that.

YOU said power is what sells, not me. I'm comparing a Toyota 6 to a Ford 8, and wondering WTF is going on here. There's NOTHING in your argument that proves the Lexus MUST be as quick or quicker simply because it costs more. Yet this appears to be the thrust of your argument.

There it is, the old worn out price argument yet again. So I guess you measure the "performance" by how much HP per dollar you're getting, not by whether or not the car offers as good or superior performance to slightly more expensive "sporty" cars (the true measure of performance value).

Yep, the history lesson is great and all, but again, what does it have to do with what I was saying?

I think we're off onto another topic here, but to answer that point: we'll see what happens with Camaro...and Challenger. I think it's more likely that rising fuel costs will put the kibosh on all these cars before long.

Fair enough.

Again, fair enough. But we're still talking about being threatened by a Toyota sedan with two less cylinders here.

Nope. Don't have one. Don't want one. What I would like is for a highly-touted, allegedly "fast" V8 powered American muscle car to have no trouble taking a 6-cylinder Toyota. Remember those early advertisements that HTT championed with the Mustang racing down the street, exhaust pipes rumbling, forward-leaning shark-like nose yelling, "Get out of my way!" to all the other cars on the road. Well, better move over Mustang, here comes a bloated 4-door jellybean with 6 cylinders ready to p!ss all over your performance moniker. Oops.

Times certainly have changed.

What am I on? It's called reality. I'll explain it to you sometime.

Don't need any; won't be buying one. But guess what, somebody will, and I bet Dodge will sell every one they can make, too.

Smack dab in the middle of the Mustang refresh/redesign/'re-imagination'. :yup:

Uh-huh... And...? :dunno:

You sure? Let's put a fork in you to make sure. :grin:

Such as they were (anybody here lusting after an old Mustang II?).

But I admire your passion and loyalty. :nice:

Sorry guys but you better get a CAI and a tune of you want to stay ahead of an IS 350. Edmunds clocked a 14.2 in the 1/4 mile with an IS 350 and a 14.3 with an 05 GT. The GT was faster from 0-60 at 5.7 sec versus 6.1 for the Lexus. The Lexus site says you need 91 octane gas to get the 306 HP so it would be interesting to see the performance on regular. The GT-H Edmunds tested ran a 13.9 in the 1/4 mile and 0-60 in 5.6 sec so the new Bullitt with similar upgrades should be able to fend off a stock IS 350.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=106607

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...7/pageNumber=1

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=116729

:rofl3:

I'm honored I "moved" you enough for you to go to all that trouble.

Gettin' to ya am I...? :jester:

Hey, BT4, for whatever it's worth, I enjoyed your performance history recap. It was very accurate and only served to strengthen the Mustang's vitality. I enjoyed reading it.

Sorry - but 14.3 for the 05 GT? Doubt it unless it was raining and an automatic driven by a 16 year old. Check just about every other review on the 05 GTs from 2-3 years ago when they first hit the streets. They were all mid-high 13's......on 87 octane......stock.

And a 0-60 time in the low 5's

I can tell you from personal experience that a stock auto 06 GT can take an auto IS350 from a stop and a roll by about 1 and a half car lengths.

A 14.3 is more like what a SN95 GT use to run, I should know I use to own one.

an 05 GT should not be running that slow, at worst an 05 and up GT is a high 13 second car and at best is a mid 13 second car.

To each their own though, we all drive what we like.

peace

Have to agree with Hollywood on this one. It is about H.P.
There is a significant gap in H.P. between the Mustang GT and the GT500. The sin of all of this is that the current under-powered SE's have narrowed the "price" gap.
In my area, I have seen Shelby GT's for $41k, the GT/CS are around $32k now.

Two years ago, you could get a Mustang GT Premium in the $27k range, now they are between $30k-$32k. GM was offering a 400hp GTO for $32k not that long ago. Now it is pretty safe to say if Ford offers a 350hp-400hp SE, that it will be near or above $40k. Pretty darn close to the GT500.

Is this meant for the Bullitt release? Just confirming...

The F-body Z28 had more HP than a Mustang GT, do you honestly believe adding more HP to the Z28 would have kept GM from closing the plant?

The Pontiac GTO in 2004 was introduced with 350-HP and sales were less than stellar. So, GM upped the ante and increased the HP and the sales zoomed, right?

I'll concede that adding more HP may not be a bad idea, but would it be a big boost to Mustang sales? Adding HP didn't save the Z28. And it certainly didn't help the GTO.

Yes, there are a lot of enthusiasts clamoring for more HP. But more HP doesn't equate to a better product or more sales. It may mean a sale to you, or Hollywood. But in the bigger picture, with rising gas prices, increased cost, it could result in fewer sales. This board doesn't represent the majority of the market buyers. That is what I tried to get across with a history of nameplates by various manufacturers all of which had tremendous HP, none of which currently exist today (except for the Charger and Mustang). One point Hollywood made that I agree with completely, is the rising cost of gas could put and end to the Camro and Challenger. It has happened before (1974). Put bigger engines and higher HP in the Mustang and it just might join them.

You may be right. Obviously, I have no crystal ball, just voicing an opinion. I'm just not convinced more HP and higher $$ will lead to success for the current Mustang, SE or not.

The current Mustang IS a success! Yes, I know some people would like more HP. But it's probably not very cost efficient for Ford at this moment in time. The company is struggling.
I doubt very much that trying to cram more horses into a Mustang is very high on their priority list.

The rising fuel costs are probably going to be like a cold shower to the brief HP wars that were just developing.
If you want more HP then you'll just have to go get it done in the aftermarket.

Speaking personally- 300-320HP is plenty for me. I can't wait to see how the Bullitt turns out. I'm hoping I like it and if so I will be placing my order.
If not I'm 95% sure I will be getting an 08 GT when the lease on my 05 GT ends.

:rofl3:



:popcorn:

And if i'm going to drop $40K on a luxo, I'm getting a 335i coupe. As powerful as my GT, but light years more luxurious and with amenities the Mustang can't even imagine having!

No. Bullitt release/debut Nov 13th LA Auto Show. Job 1 date Dec 3. Should hit the showrooms early 08.

Just an observation, at 14K more, a BMW 335i certainly ought to have more amenities than a Mustang, shouldn't it, else what are you getting for the additional $14K? Hollywood compared a Mustang GT to a $40k IS350, you compare it to a $40K BMW and both of you complain that a $26k Mustang is not as impressive.

How about comparing a $40K Mustang to a $40K IS350. The MSRP for a Shelby GT500 is $40,930. Something tells me that a Lexus IS350 at $40k will see nothing of the GT500 except tail lights. This should make Hollywood happy. In an earlier post, he admitted he would pay $40K for a Mustang SE with at least 375 and a vented hood. There you are a Mustang SE with 500-hp and a vented hood for $40k. (If you can find a dealer willing to forgo ADM.)

You can get your 335i for under $40 ($38k for the version that isn't AWD). But if you insist on the AWD (nice option) the base price is over $40K. Yes it is a different car. And you still might prefer the BMW, after all the Shelby GT500 is not to everybody's taste--to each his own. I'd like to be able to buy a 500-hp Mustang and pay $26K for it. I'd like to be able to buy a BMW 335i for $27K. But somehow, I just don't think that's going to happen.

Ford needs to sell Mustangs. Could they offer a Mustang GT at $40K with more "layers of refinement" (to quote Hollywood--no sarcasm intended, it's a good line)? Yes, I think they could. Could Ford sell 160,000 units at $40K--NFW. Could they sell 100,000 units at that price point--no. 60,000 units--probably not. 40,000 units--I doubt it. (Keep in mind GM has already stated they need to move at least 100,000 units of the new Camaro to keep the project alive.)

Anybody have the sales volume figures for BMW335i?

July 2007 YTD

335i Coupe (E92) 784 6,081
335i Convertible (E93) 916 4,584

Having an exclusive car is not a bad thing, or a good thing. Having an exclusive car with those kinds of volume is not what Ford needs right now.

Thanks--The late 60's early 70's was a great time for performance cars. On the whole, today's cars are better, but I miss the individuality offered by the array of performance cars in the past. The automotive landscape has changed considerably. I still remember a purple AAR Cuda in my neighborhood that was very quick and I find it hard to believe that Plymouth doesn't exist anymore. One of my friends had an Olds 4-4-2, but Oldsmobile is now gone.

I drove a 69 Mustang. When I bought it (used) it had the Autolite 2-barrel from the factory on its 302. After some minor tweaking, an Edelbrock medium-riser manifold, a Carter AFB series 4-bbl, cyclone headers, Mr. Gasket competition 3-speed linkage, it went a little faster. Eventually traction bars were added to control the wheel-hop, I was afraid of breaking a spring, or axle.

It is a good time to be an auto-enthusiast now. But with crude above $93 a barrel, I'm not sure how long it'll last.

Enjoy the ride!

The last thing you'll need to worry about is seeing the taillights of an 08 Challenger- they're only making 3300 of them!
Good luck finding one and just image the ADM that they will charge.
I know for a fact they won't be sending ANY to Canada- they will be building the car here but they are sending them all to the U.S.

I too am a little disappointed the Bullitt won't have a twin vented hood.
I thought that would make it a perfect tribute car.
But if you want that and you want more HP- you can spend $5000 in the aftermarket and customize your ride.
I know people wish Ford would do these things, but over the last several months I more fully understand where Ford is coming from.
It's just not cost effective to offer so many options, etc.
Look at the Jap cars- you don't really get to order options. They come base or loaded.

I just want a Mustang that is equal to what the competition offers. I don't know why us Mustang loyalist always have to settle for second best or pay a lot more for something that is comparable to the competitions.

The Mustang is Fords "Baby", they shouldn't need GM or Chrysler to push them to make improvements. The improvements should be made to satisfy us loyalist and potential new customers.

The Mustang will always sell well, its an American Icon like the Corvette. But, Ford shouldn't "milk" us like they have in the past.