Hey Jeff: I was responding to post 14 I think. But I don't see how you could think I was interested in any way in pursuing any legal action whatsoever to try and cancel or reverse my 'non-refundable' deposit by my post. Although post 17 recommends it. And I thought the smile meant screwy like a screwy comment that I couldn't figure out. Sorry for any confusion.

Thanx!

 

I have to agree with Brian about wishing to remain anonymous here. He's here to have fun and interact with the rest of us as an enthusiast. Why would he want to extend his work day here? If you were a lawyer, would you want to spend your evening giving out free legal advice on a forum? If you were a teacher, would you want to spend your off time talking about grammar and math? I give him kudos for sharing what he does with us. Don't ruin his fun, or he might decide to post elsewhere.

If you guys knew what I did for a living, you would be quite surprised that I am here. Which is why I choose to remain anonymous also. I'm here as a Mustang enthusiast and car nut. Nothing more.

 

I do feel for you cdy, but I'll echo the statements of others here....

There ARE dealers out there that will order for you on X, A, Z, D plan. You can easily get an X pin from the kind souls over on Blue Oval Forums. You may not have known that...but you do now. Now having that knowledge, I suggest you do what you can to go that route, instead.

I also got the "we'll sell for MSRP" spiel from a few dealers when I went to order my Bullitt. I just called around to find one that would take Z plan, and it really wasn't that difficult.

Another dealer offered to order a GT500 for me at MSRP last year, despite many other dealers charging outrageous ADMs. They are not all bad. I have had bad dealings with dealers, including some last year with several Toyota dealerships in my area when I went to purchase an SUV for my wife. I just walked when they started their BS (we need your social security number for "Homeland Security purposes", etc).

 

Yeah Jeff, the Dealer hit me over the head with a huge tree branch and then took the money out of my pocket and made me order. Oh yeah, and I really was turned into a horny toad. Come on...

And what you didn't like my reality show?? I had fun with that! LOL
(I had Oh Brother playing in the background and suddenly the scenes seemed to fit. So I did my own movie. [Now don't go tellin the copyright police!] Besides it was satire about ADM's - a real life practice in a particular industry that many believe to be unethical.)

Ain't lookin for any sympathy Jeff, no chip on my shoulder as somebody suggested, I'm not whining as somebody else said, and I DON'T have buyers remorse. By far, the majority of comments have been intelligent discussion, positive toward me (who cares), concerned about the subject, unhappy with ADM's, and I've learned a lot because of their informative posts. First time in my life I ever started a thread - had no idea so many would respond. We're over 1000 views and it isn't even 48 hrs yet.

Those that defend ADM's are in the minority and in my opinion are not ethical business people. In my particular case, I should not have had 3 Dealerships across 2 States tell me that this is what I have to do to order a Bullitt. My sales rep even called back & emailed 3 times saying "his area rep just told him Ford was slashing production to only 3500!" He lied and I knew it. (He didn't know anything about the Bullitt anyway. Started filling out a GT order form asking me what color & what interior package I wanted.)

But this isn't about my 2500 bucks. Its about an industry that supports an outrageous overcharge above MSRP that has nothing to do with supply and demand. I just used my experience to start the conversation.

And I'm certainly not going to let anybody - particularly insiders in the business - put duct tape over my mouth.

Nothing personal. This isn't about you. Its about the new car industry. But hey, this is America, so if you like ADM's so be it. To each his own.

Hope the best for you

 

Right on Moonshiner! Hope corn doesn't catch up to you in the meantime. My hay bill went from $3800 - $5300 just this year! Fuel & power hikes (they irrigate everything here). If things get bad, I may turn French and start eating horse!

Good luck!

 

Hi:
I mentioned earlier, the dealer required me to put $3k down and sign a Non Refundable agreement to place the order.
Heck I figured it was going to take several months to build so I moved forward right away. They say it will be here in February. I'll have a foot and a half of snow till April! LOL Live and learn.
However, my main reason for starting this thread was for the benefit of other people who like myself, were unfamiliar with ADM's; and because I think the creation and toleration of ADM's in this industry is unethical.

Take care

 

This must be a west coast thing... in Chicago if we don't want to buy the car because it costs too much, then we don't buy the car. And if we accidentally pay too much, we don't complain at the top of our lungs, we shut up about it so our neighbors don't think we're bad with money.


Quite true.

Everytime a government steps in and sets prices, what happens? Real prices paid go up, in obtuse ways around the price controls.

Case study? New York City apartments.

If anybody here is an independent businessman I'd be either surprised they would be advocating price controls - or surprised they are a businessman in any sense other than an inherited one who doesn't pay much in taxes or has a PAC or a clout heavy, political, industry lobby or whatnot.

And yes, if a government (city, state, federal) says a dealer cannot charge above MSRP by way of ADMs, that is government price control. If anybody disagrees, I say go study economics for ten years. I did. Why do ADMs exist? Because people pay them. Nobody's forcing them to. Are some people gullible? Sure. But that doesn't mean you have to be....

 

Hi:

No doubt that's why we're not seeing too many 'yeah I paid one too' - because of embarrasment or privacy. Yet it is obvious by the posts that a bunch of people are left with no choice but to pay one - if they want the car. And most are unhappy with new car dealer's ADM's - regardless of your 10 yrs book knowledge. And I want a brand new Bullitt - but not at a gouge the other people aren't paying. See my opinion posts on NEW manufactured products vs used products.

That's why I mentioned earlier that I risked embarrassment in telling my experience. Must be that midwest thinking. (I grew up in St. Louis. Go Cardinals!) However, I am in such a rural mountain area now, and via the internet, I didn't worry so much about it and told the story for the benefit of others. I'm 51 and had never heard of ADM's.

And this ain't nuthin'. You should see my email broadcasts and statewide letters to the editor on the Constitution violating, totalitarian methods of Admininstrative Law Depts. Particularly the power hungry, condescending, incompetent SSA staffers, and the vast ineptness of OIG that ignores factual, documented evidence for years and rather relies on unverifiable hearsay of an ex-wife. You don't know what you don't know about our Gov.

And so tell me, how many other industries have ADM's?? You make it sound like all businesses engage in these practices. My business experience disagrees. My friends are unaware. And aren't there already anti-gouging laws on the books for most businesses? Protecting the consumer from artifical mark-ups and collusion is far different from outright price controls.

Thanx

PS: actually I excel at money/cash flow mgmt - and no college degree here

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-...spagenameZWDVW

Sold at MSRP.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-...spagenameZWDVW

Sold near MSRP.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-...spagenameZWDVW

Sold for $400 over MSRP.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=130181623677

Sold for $100 over MSRP.


You should have done some more research.

 

Agreed. Did the best I could with the information I had at the time. This board is much better than the others I previewed and I would have been better equipped if I would have learned of it first.

But for my home location, with the situations of my own life that limit me from travelling too far in the winter (live alone with a herd of horses to feed, 4200' altitude with a foot of new snow in the last 5 days, live way out in a mt valley, 6 hrs from the nearest large city, etc.), a $2500 premium is no more than those of you with state sales tax.

However, that still doesn't mean I have to be pleased with a greedy industry's practices - regardless if I learned of them after the fact. I never upcharged anyone in my sales career and I don't agree with the new car dealers method of business. How many more times can I say it?

Take care!

 

[quote=c25sailor;1075157]Hi:

Just a brief comment on that point. The Federal & State securities regulators do their best (far from perfect) to protect the investor from unethical business practices and unfair pricing. Faulty accounting, fraudulent practices, selling without a license, misrepresentation, lack of disclosure, mutual funds trading after hours for certain brokerages, etc.; are pursued vigorously. NY AG Elliot Spitzer became a household name after the mutual fund scandal. Billions - not millions - were paid in fines and restitution. Citigroup, Smith Barney, Merrill, Janus, Columbia, Bank of America, on and on and on paid huge fines and restitution. Why?

And tell me, isn't insider trading illegal? Why?

Why did they prosecute & IMPRISON Martha (wrongly IMO - stop losses are perfectly legal) and Sam and numerous others like high level leaders at Tyco, Enron, MCI, and many more??

Why did congress enact Sarbanes-Oxley that requires CEO's to sign off on the Annual Report?

Because it is unfair, unethical, and illegal (in that business) to create a scenario where a few get priviliged stock prices and the average investor gets to trade after the fact (which usually means he/she pays a HIGHER price!). No ADM's allowed here!

A regulated stock market has not created a soviet style economy but created boundaries to operate within that protect the average investor - a level playing field (which for some inexplicable reason Brian believes to be socialism), and the most successful, trusted stock market IN THE WORLD!

No I am not suggesting the new car dealer industry be regulated. (Actually it is already highly regulated - just not against price gouging at this point in time.) But I do believe that price gouging should be illegal in the new car industry - just like it is in virtually all other industries in the US.

I appreciate your in depth comments. Take care

 

Hi Brian:
I've waited to respond because I just can't fathom why you are defending ADM's. Not with your reputation & what you've said about your Dealership on this board. Say it ain't so... tell me I misunderstand you...

1 & 3. Why do you jump to an extreme about "mandated statutory retail price"? I did not suggest that. However, MSRP is determined by the manufacturer and I know of NO other industry that inflates the price beyond the MSRP 'on the box'.

Examples:
a. I just got an email from Costco for 32 items. Whether you go in the store before or after me, we both pay the SAME price for those items.
b. I just bought a razr phone from US Cell and a new program. Whether you go in the store before or after me, we both pay the SAME price for that phone and those minutes.
c. I've been without tv for many years while I successfully litigated against the Gov. I just ordered Dish HD with DVR. Whether you order before or after me, we both pay the SAME price for the same programming package during the same promotion.
d. I just bought a 42"HD flat from my local big box store. Whether you go in the store before or after me, we both pay the SAME price for that tv.
e. I just bought Hughes Sat internet. Regardless if you order before or after me, we both pay the SAME price for the same speed during the same promotion.
f. If we both order the same model Gibson Les Paul Standard and a Marshall Amp from Musicians Friend, we both pay the SAME price for those same products.
g. I just filled up my truck at the gas station. Regardless if you're on the pump next to me or behind me, we both pay the SAME price per gallon for reg un.
h. Your Parts Dept. Let's say Joe & charliehorse come to you to buy a new factory hood for our Bullitt. We both pay the SAME price from your parts dept., don't we?? I mean we're not sent to separate rooms, we don't get numerous visits from salesman & sales mgr explaining ADM, and we don't get hammerred by the finance dept., right??
i. Your Body Shop. Heck they don't even guestimate anymore. They look at the parts damaged, look up the price for the parts, the computer tells them how many hours to charge for labor. (I know this is true for an insurance claim anyway. I did some consulting & bookkeeping for the most successful body shop in my town and before he opened his own shop, he managed Ford's body shop here for about 20 yrs. They use that Mitchell online program.) But the point is that whether it was Joe or charliehorse that had the exact same wreck, we would both pay the same price to get our car fixed.
And from what I understand, your repair shop uses a similar system for pricing of labor on mechanical repairs.

Why is it different for your highest priced product? Why aren't there ADM's on top of MSRP on examples a - i? Why don't consumers have to fight sales managers and finance dept's on a - i, but yet you are now saying ADM's above MSRP is perfectly acceptable on new cars?

Geez, think about the grocery store, clothes store, jiffy lube, Burger King... I mean look around your home and office. How many things did you have to haggle for and how many things did you pay ADM over the MSRP?? Are those companies or examples a - i price fixing or socialistic? Nope!

Integrity from customer to customer and a level playing field has nothing to do with socialism.

I just don't understand how you can support the allowance of price gouging on new cars that is not allowed or practiced in so many other industries - including your own parts & body departments.

2. Yeah this is my opinion. And that's what this forum is about. You have a right to your own opinion. However, I think it is obvious that you are wrong about whether the majority of consumers embrace ADM's or are disgusted with new car dealership unethical practices of ADM's above MSRP.

Heck, run a poll - who wants ADM's vs who doesn't.

To each his own...
Respectfully

 

ADM , Like who gives a da** If you paid it or not. That is your personal business. You have a VIN #, be happy and save the bandwidth for more interesting information. I would pay whatever it takes to own all three Bullitt Mustangs.I have two, ordered the third.My Great Grand Children can fight over them after I have enjoyed them.

 

Isn't that what it's all about, really? You only go around once. If something makes you happy, and you can afford it, why not? So maybe you paid a little too much. In the end it doesn't really matter. You can take your Bullitt out and drive it with a smile on your face, or you can stay up half the night worrying about what you paid for it, what others think about what you paid for it, ad nauseum.

Drive it like you stole it and sleep well

 

Give me a break!
Everybody has a choice, they always do. And guess what... you still have a choice.

March down to that dealership, and get your money back. If you are unable to.... well then it just goes to show, that you sir are completely lacking in negotiating skills and deserve to lose your money because you broke the cardinal numero uno rule in buying anything.

TAKE THE EMOTION OUT OF IT... BE PREPARED TO WALK AWAY

You didn't do that, you went in with a "I gotta have it now" attitude and it was written all over your face.... you should have just walked into that dealership with a giant sign that said "take me for whatever you want and bend me over, because I'm a HUGE sucker".

That's why people get taken in and pay ADM's.... That's why people get talked into leaving non refundable deposits, that quite frankly don't make sense.... it's not like they'll have ANY problem selling the car if you don't take delivery.

You sir were STUPID, plain and simple. People like me, don't care about ADM's, because I don't pay them, never have, never will.

The ONUS is on YOU.... It is YOUR FAULT you paid an ADM and nobody elses.

Man up or SHUT UP.

 

"d. I just bought a 42"HD flat from my local big box store. Whether you go in the store before or after me, we both pay the SAME price for that tv."
.
When I bought my TV there are 3 stores on the same block.
I went to the first 2 and the price was the same, a little high.
3rd store had it for $100 less. I bought there.
I used the same logic when I bought my car.

 

I just sat on the phone and called around. I called 6 or 7 dealerships before I found a guy that knew about the car and promised me no ADM. then, when I put my deposit down, I signed my order sheet with the x-plan price circled as a deal finisher.

 

Buying a car is really not that much different from buying something at a store. The only diff. is that you don't deal with the people that set the prices at the store. The salesguy there has no power in changing the price, so you pay what you see. A salesguy at a dealership has more freedom and you know that, so you can negotiate a price. Go to KMart and you want a price to change, it has to go through many more people than just the salesguy.

 

cdynaco you have way too much time on your hands.

If you don't like ADM's then don't pay them. Get educated before you place a deposit on anything!

Living in the middle of nowhere isn't an excuse to pay ADM then have remorse over it! Your own fault. Time to stop crying over the spilled milk!

 

George, I don't fully understand your question. Let's just say that I do not want my posts here on line to always have to take my employer or Ford into consideration. I do not want to be limited in what I say here. Again, I'm a Mustang enthusiast first and foremost.

MSRP is a silly thing - enacted by Senator Monroney back in the 1950's. It is purely a suggestion as to what dealers should charge, but it is legally mandated to show an MSRP on every new car. It is not legally mandated to sell the dang car for that amount, though. Truth be told, we very rarely sell anything at MSRP! A couple hot items (GT500's) may go for more than MSRP, Bullitts go for MSRP, but everything else on our lot is being sold for hundreds, and even thousands, below MSRP every day (and after deducting rebates, customers pay well below what the dealership does!).

cdynaco, the dealership I work at is one of 160+ dealers in the NW. We consistently rank in the top ten for sales volume AND we have won more customer service awards than any other dealer in the entire NW, and as many as just a couple dozen nationwide. Volume and customer satisfaction can go hand in hand, and my employer is proof of that. The vast majority of our business is repeat and referral business - a testiment to how we cultivate long term relationships versus some (OK, many) dealers that live for the moment and can't see past making a killing on a single transaction.

As for analogies, let's talk Appaloosas for a second. Take a bunch of young, untrained Appaloosas (almost essentially a NEW commodity, if you will). Send them to auction and let the bidding begin. Why does each sell at a different price? Regional price differences? Sure! Maybe certain trainers see a quality they can build upon and train? But, they're all horses; "new" and untrained. Shouldn't there be a mandated and regulated price? I cringed when I learned what my sis paid for her new horse. Crud, sis, it's just a horse! Horse traders are just as greedy as any other trader, I guess. Maybe it can be justified as she's "preserving" a great legacy of pure blood lines, but the same can be said for any of us buying limited edition Mustangs!

In summary, cdynaco, I'm really sorry that you didn't get as good a deal as you could have elsewhere. But, please oh please, do not think for a minute that your inability to negotiate as good a deal as the next guy entitles you to any legal remedies. Go ask for your deposit back. Want advice on how to leverage your request without resorting to courts or public attacks? Simply explain to your dealer that you are unhappy with the deal, and if not refunded and your purchase happens, that you will write a scathingly bad survey when Ford mails the new car survey to you after purchase! Those surveys from Ford mean the world to us dealers in more ways than you can know. Threaten a bad survey and most any dealer will either bend over backwards to make you happy, or will refuse to do business with you so that you don't get a survey to fill out about them at all. Butler Ford will likely hand your money right back to wash their hands clean of you in a heartbeat. Then, go out and find a new dealer willing to sell at MSRP, as there are plenty out there!