No comment - judge for yourself >>

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...TGMBNA8D91.DTL

 

The handling at high speeds seems to be every critic's gripe as if every turn of the key leads to an Autobahm's entrance. Then logic has a momentary presence:
"... But, of course, there was only so much screwing down the chassis guys could do. For a couple of reasons. First, because Ford is going to sell these cars to civilians, not racers. And the suspension settings (spring rates, shock damping, wheel travel) necessary to keep the axle located would make the ride unspeakably stiff for any organism in possession of a spine..."

 

The review makes the same conclusions as most others. The Shelby is a beast of a car at 500 HP and man it pulls like a freight train in a stright line. Okay got it, it's a muscle car and that is the basic definition. 40 years that was the trademark and what car fanatics wanted. Today a different story as you can see.

"But in my flog, the GT500 rolled, bounded, skipped, over-rotated and axle-hopped in every place where there wasn't perfect pavement, which was, um, just about everywhere. "

Critics and car fanatics alike have higher expectations beyond just the motor. Well for 42K or so thats not going to happen! Not in a car with 500HP and a weight distribution ratio of 57/43. The car is awesome at high speeds as long as you never have to turn. Okay there is the conclusion from about every review posted. If you want to do alittle bit of both in a mustng buy a Saleen or a Roush. It's all selling points and preference of horsepower versus handle. Comparing which car has the most horsepower is like comparing who has a larger ****.

 

In a nutshell, the number of paper hacks who actually have any experiance with a 500 horse car is just about the same as the number of hard core owners(most Shelby's will NEVER, EVER get to the top of a max effort 2/3 shift, let alone a fulll on effort, and thats a GOOD thing).

Up until this year, the number of cars of this sort of ability was either A. the 3000 or so Viper owners who broke the mold and actually DROVE the **** things(see above for the rest) and a WHOLE BUNCH of last gen SVT Cobra owners OR B. the very expensive cars with expensive driver cancellation, er, control aids.

For the first and perhaps last time, the big numbers were within the reach of the many, not just the ultra rare air of the collecters/posuers/SERIOUSLY hardcore. Those of us who understood what was going on, and who made up a pretty unique group of average Jills and Joes, were able to easily mod the COBRA's(and Lightnings) to the kind of numbers in question.

BUT

The cars also came with a lot less power from the factory(recall that the Term was slightly underated at 380). So newbies could learn their way into the numbers, and keep their driving skills on the same curve as the power. So for them, the jump to the 07 GT500 was not nearly the jump it is for say 99.9999999% of people who can afford this sort of weapon now that there are a number of choices.

The truly best part is, the GT500 is as raw and pure a muscle car as has ever built. And so it should remain. The car is the automotive equivelant of a Sig Sauer machine pistol, and even though they are more or less accessable by everyone, not many have a clue as to its intended use, and even fewer have the skill. The coming (short) age of more if not many of these kind of cars is frightening for many reasons, but I predict Darwin will have a hand in the final outcome.

Please note, I DO NOT include cars like the Corvette(as capable and well engineered as it is) because that is an example of a finely honed weapon, one that has the engineering finish to make this kind of power USABLE and dare I say SAFE.

There is no way the GT500 should be considered USABLE and SAFE as it is the RAW and CHEAP contender into this realm, and anyone who thinks otherwise is in my opinion, a potential statistic. For the VERY VERY few who actually either get some proper driver training, or who come by this progression of power honestly, I of course make allowances. But anybody with no recent experiance who thinks you can jump into a nose heavy, *L.C.D. solid rear axle car and compete with ALL THE OTHER much more developed cars at this power level is dangerous.

Please, please, for new SVT COBRA's owners, spend part of what you spent on the ADM and GO TO SCHOOL! I promise two things. You will be STUNNED at the capability of the car, and STUNNED at your previous lack of ability to actually control it.

*L.C.D.= Lowest Common Denominator. Every comproimise to get this car to the mythical MSRP is a flag to the aware. Heavy iron blocks and the weight distribution, solid rear axle, not so serious seats, very small for the power tires, etc, etc.

Rant off. I now return you to the regularly schedualed daily tally of vehicular homicide.

Sort of.

 

You're not making much of a case for the GT500; what you're describing is a machine that can only be properly tamed by a select few...and can only really strut its stuff in a very limited number of environments - namely a drag strip or a smooth track with plenty of sweepers but few sharp bends.

Kind of makes you wonder who the target demographic for this car is, then (aside from collectors, poseurs and aficionados of "bragging rights"), doesn't it?

 

That seems to go totally against SVO/SVT's original "mission" of taking an "ordinary" Ford vehicle and transforming it into something that could go up against more expensive machinery.

 

Mission accomplished for SVT by common everyday Car dealers!! they made sure it could do that by tsimply making them "More Expensive"!!

 

That summation holds true for other high performance cars. Not every car is ready for every application out of the box.

 

I still think the car is outstanding value for the $, but for almost two full years, I have been worried about how a car like this is accessed and used. As well as preaching(ne begging) for people to get some proper training in its use, especially as the SVT track days(with professional instruction) seem to be no longer a fringe benefit.

In the interest of full disclosure, I had been prepared to offer 15k over MSRP, and was turned away not by one, not two or three, but four greedy dealers. That still doesn't mean I wouldn't like to be driving the car by now, but it sure hardened me to the whole mess. As a former SVT customer, and one who helped to sell at least five other SVT products to friends and family, I had thought I was smack in the middle of the target group. I modded my car in consultation with SVT's tech advice, helped prototype some parts, and drove it HARD EVERY DAY rain, sun and snow. I tracked it half a dozen times a year, and I let ALL my friends and family, and even a couple of complete strangers drive it.(had to force a few as well, as they found it pretty intimidating) Hell I even taught two people to drive a standard with it!!

So if the car wasn't for me, who was it for indeed? Again, I am somewhat envious of those who got theirs from good dealers with their MSRP deals, and most of those are the sort of people who already had experiance with a pretty serious car. But as the first 6 months of production ends, I can not help but wonder who Ford expects to keep buying this thing for the next 18 months at least.

Two years ago, when first announced, the thought of the GT engine in a SVT typical Stang was world shaking. As it turned out, what is being sold is the Lightning engine in a pretty basic chassis with a hell of a cachet in the name. And if rumours are true, then there is a pretty major mustang upgrade in a year, with the rear suspension being addressed, as well as the weight.

What can one infer from that? That I am wrong, or someone at what used to be SVT is? Or perhaps all is well, and it was time for me to spend my money at a far removed manufacturer(hint, its a Cayman)

 

In the US, I would agree with you. But with only about 400 GT500s coming to Canada, I suspect the waiting list will exceed the production numbers being shipped north of the border for the full three year production run.

Too bad they were gouging you in Alberta. Here in BC, 'ADMs' are illegal. Of course, that only makes the car HARDER to get around here.

Opposite ends of the spectrum.

I suspect the Camaro will be better able to hold its own against the Euro sportmobiles than the current generation Mustang. Word is that GM's Zeta platform is as good as anything out there today - and better than most - and with IRS and the LS engine it should offer formidable performance for a reasonable price (minus ADMs, of course).

 

It's good you brought up that point.

'99 and '01 Cobra owners complained of the IRS wheel hop and the absence of traction on 1/4 mile runs and the need for a solid rear axle. SVT track days emphasis was mainly geared for the weekend autoX drivers, which brings the point of which segment does Ford satisfies with the current set up.

The GT500 has the foundation for both and improvements are available. A drag pack and performance tune offered by Steeda or a Roush Stage 2 suspension upgrade are available at minimal costs.

 

I think that speaks more to the weaknesses of the previous generation Cobra's IRS, as opposed to being seen as an endorsement for going back to a SRA.

To my knowledge (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), the current generation Mustang is the only sport/GT car in the world that is presently using a solid rear axle. To me, that speaks volumes.

Competitors are able to channel high power through an IRS, and before anybody crows that it would "cost too much," what makes anyone think that the cost savings incurred by using the current SRA are being passed on to the consumer...and not going directly into the coffers of Ford's senior executives, so they can do stuff like, oh, I don't know... fly from Florida to Detroit everyday in a corporate jet?

 

What's important is the 0 - 60 and the fun factor. Any other concerns can be easily addressed.

 

Seriously, I am really enjoying this. I think the market for this kind of car is always more mixed then it's indnded/designed for audience. There are those who the car was designed for, people with some actual experience behind the wheel and the rest is a mix of 1/4 mile time braggers, those who truly think this is another Corvette (a daily driver that puts down great numbers, which given the specs of this car is seriously doubt how much of a daily driver it is) and poseurs, though this term is really a bit too harsh for me.

We are not talking about a Ferrari here the price of this car (with out ADM) is very accecptable for alot of people. That being said, you will have people that can afford it but should not have it, this is the price you pay for introducing this kind of power at this price.

Now factor in ADM and you have people who think they are buying a Ferrari-esque car, then when they get in it and find that it lacks the many driver-aid features that foreign car makers put into their performance cars and you get some confused/frustrated reviewers. The GT500 is not a super car, it is a muscle car in every sense of the word and not many people know how to drive those anymore.

Now if this is a example of something that people will continue to want and learn to drive or if this is a example of backwards thinking, only time will tell, I just hope we don't have to suffer people killing them selves in the process.

 

Wish we could get some additional thoughtful types in here, this is important to clear up...

1 Bullitt, I think I see where you are going here, but where, if anywhere; does Ford go from here?

Please don't tell me that you think that just upping the power in the current chassis is a good idea, I had read you as more cognizant than that. At some point either Ford cedes the market, or ups the capability. It is truly as simple as that.

Over and over again, I find myself questioning the number of people who will continue to play along at the climbing price and shrinking value of these cars. The Viper was a novelty at first, now the only sales are to repeat customers. The C5 Z06 was akin to the term, but now GM has taken it another level in price and capability. I really wonder if C6 Z sales will approach C5 ones. And they have decided to offer versions of both examples BEYOND those!! How many, do you think, of the new Shelby customers who would never buy one of these 500 horse SVT's if not for the name, are going to buy a next generation Ford hi-po Mustang, considering how many will be kept for less than driving reasons? 5%? 10%? I have serious doubt that this was quite thought through in the fall of 05.

The fact is that the only way those cars can make complete business case(as opposed to PR which is not a measurable metric, valuable though it is, and sales of which SVT was by FAR the only going concern this way) is drop through engineering. Spread the knowledge and parts amongst the appliances that keep the lights on. A prime example of this is how SVT got Jackie Stewart to fine tune Cobra handling, but while he was there, he had input into steering wheels, pedal placement and size and some pretty interesting words about shifter and column placement on the other crap sitting on the pad.

There is no doubt that ALL Mustangs are better for having SVT in the model mix, the changes in all 06 cars are testament to that, but is there any business sense in trying to build a 50k or 60k 550/600 horse Ford Mustang with the same level of engineering? Exhibit this springs dismantleing of SVT.

The total number of all musclecar sales shrinks further when place up against the versions you mentioned(Roush, Saleen, Steeda), the upcoming brand x competition and the fact that at 50+ our beloved Pony is starting to butt heads with some pretty unsympathetic and capable competitors.(That would be the point of the Vette vs. GT500 debates, not because of intent, but because of price and 0-60) A contest that Mustang cannot sustain I fear.

So, my next question. Is the GT500 going to be the end of REAL in house hi-performance at Ford? Has it made the next followon impossible from a business and value standpoint? Wouldn't that be an interesting legacy for ol Shel. The reason for a car that so put off the company and customers that Ford decided to wash its hands of the whole difficult business.

 

Ford doesn't need to go any further. Any Mustang which has the mid 300s of hp/torque is more than sufficient and will satisfy 90% of those interested. It's the critics that never get enough of something, just to complain.

As BC mentioned, a lot of it is for bragging rights for whichever reason. The point I tried to make in mentioning the Steeda and Roush upgrades was meant strictly for competition not the average driver. The GT500 is fine the way it is and doesn't need a single upgrade, not even the exhaust.

 

I'll leave that first alone for now, but what about the people who are quite unhappy re the axle windup/hop/tramp?
On other forums, a lot, if not the majority of new owners are pretty taken aback by the issue and a few are downright scared of it? Please don't suggest that that is Fords new budget traction control nanny

 

I like the GT500, well, I like it as much as I can having never actually driven one. And I have seen enough by this point to be thoroughly convinced it is the powerful, smooth, and competent grand tourer owners and resources like Motor Trend claim it to be.

That said, I don't think production numbers are especially optimistic given the price tag. Unfortunately, those production numbers do mean that a large portion of GT500's will no doubt end up in the hands of folks who will never explore the cars true limits, and who couldn't even if they wanted to just as Jetsolver mused above.

As for where to go from here. Stepping up the chassis to better handle 500hp, and to adequately handle even greater power than this since it is obviously coming, would seem the obvious next logical step.

 

I don't think the car is intended solely for track use. That is all the rags have to evaluate it. They either evaluate its track ability, slalom or 1/4 mi ability. They even use those comparisons for Corollas.

Mustangs and GT500s are Blvd Cruisers that happen to also perform on the tracks. I don't intend to track mine every weekend. I will do it once in a while to get to use the full power, but, mostly it is going to be cruising. I don't need 500hp to cruise, but, knowing it is there makes the cruising that much more enjoyable.

So, I really don't care about the numbers or high speed impressions the mags get, I just want to enjoy my car. It is the fun factor for me.

 

Crazyhorse makes an excellent point here, its all about the fun factor! The car is factory car for road use and at $42-45K it is a respectable price to pay. Your not buying a race car so you can't expect it to perform like one. If you want an out of the box race car you need to look at an aftermarket mustang that has been engineered to perform to that standard. If you are handy in your own right, buy either a Mustang GT or a GT 500 and mod it up to your own specs. Is there room for improvement on the factory GT 500? Yes! Most cars off the factory can be improved lightyears beyond what the factory offers off of the production line. See the latest issue of MM&FF and see what they did for about 15K on a mustang GT and a GT 500. However to improve it your talking about sinking in more money above that 40+ pricetag. In the end we get back to the basic principle the fun factor. What are you going to use the car for? If your going to cruise with it no need to upgrade anything. It will stand out at a car show and any other saturday night sonic drive in meet grabbing lots of attention. If you looking to go racing with this car, your going to have to pony up some cash to stay with the competition. Remember the car is a Ford product with some insight and approval from Shelby. I say enjoy it for the fun factor and drive it as you please because any car on the market has its pros and cons.