rrobello

Toyota yanked the car from our market but continued to sell the Supra in Japan for several years after, I believe it only recently fell out of their market and has only been out of the market for a few years there, but it definately hasnt been anywhere close to 10 years that Japan has been without a Supra.

Hollywood_North GT

I never said quality over value, did I? Value = quality for $$ spent, as opposed to an equation that emphasizes "cheap, cheap, cheap" all the time, which has proven unsuccessful for Ford.

Moreover, the GT-R and the 350Z you reference in this thread have NOTHING to do with each other.

And I think Evil_Capri just quoted the arrival stateside of the NISSAN GT-R...quite an easy site to find if anyone bothered to look, yes?

Hollywood_North GT

True. But we weren't talking about the Japanese market for the purposes of any of these conversations. We're talking about the North American market.

rrobello

thanks for that. I hadnt seen that info before, the last I heard on the actual GTR concept (which they are still calling a concept) was actually the day after that on the 13th which was a report of what the president and CEO of Nissan (Mr. Carlos Ghosn) actually said. He did announce that the GTR will be sold in the U.S. as the Nissan GT-R.

However he also added the following:

"As part of his keynote address at the International Motor Press Association Breakfast, Mr. Ghosn said that when he unveiled the GT-R PROTO, Nissan had not yet decided whether the GT-R would be sold as a Nissan or an Infiniti in the United States."

so again the latest news is NOT SO CLEAR on what exactly is gonna happen with this car, they do not even know if it will be Nissan or Infiniti. And they are still calling it a concept and we all know that from concept to production a lot can happen, including the car being dropped all together.

rrobello

Man sometimes I dont know why I even bother to respond to anyone that not only doesnt read what I say but doesnt even remember what they say. I said:

"...so much for your theory of people rather paying for quality over value,"

in response to what you said:

"Other makes may charge more for their quality, but they're financials are also a lot healthier than Ford's. That tells me that people are willing to pay more for quality..."

So yes you did say people would rather pay for quality over value (cost savings). Why don't you pay a little more attention to not only what others say but to what you say as well?

Well I dont think we know that they have nothing to do with each other yet. The R35 Skyline in Japan, which is currently available, is in fact the G35 here and in essence the Nissan 350Z. The GTR is gonna stay true to the skyline history, a base Rseries Skyline and then an upgraded GTR version of the car. So in Japan this car will be known as the R35 Skyline GTR. So since we do not even know at this point in time whether or not this car will be Nissan or Infiniti here in the USA, we can not assume that we will know the name of the car. In Japan the skyline GTR will be a turbod V8, and it has been said (among all the back and forth rumors) that the American version will be a supercharged V6 as is the 350Z GT-S I mentioned. (Hmmm coincidence the names GTR and GTS on very similar bodied cars are so much alike???) Not to mention the GTS I mentioned has a body kit on it that is much like that on the GTR concept. It is not too hard to imagine that just maybe they will come out with the GTR here as a downplayed Nissan 350Z GT-S for less money to appeal to the younger crowd and possibly a suped up Infiniti G35 GT-R with a much higher price tag for the "older kids" who want their toys too, but couldnt imagine paying 75K for a Nissan, is it?

I responded to his post.

rrobello

Very true I wasnt trying to bring that into the arguement, just adding more info for those that don't know that, so we are all on the same page when discussing these cars. However this bit of trivia does lend to what 68notch said about the Supra being pulled from our market ONLY, because "Americans didn't think its 'quality and technology' was worth the $40-45K MSRP's." which further combats your "quality over value" theory. The reason Ford isnt doing too well as company isn't simply because they dont have the quality that their foreign competitors do, its because throughout the rest of their line (Mustangs aside) they dont offer enough quality per the cost of the cars (their cost difference directly reflects their lack in quality). So people see the value in spending more money on a sedan (for example) that has much more quality in it then they do in saving that amount of money for a much lesser car. Whereas when comparing the Mustang line to competitor's sports cars, the value of the purchase comes from the small difference in the superior performance of the foreign sports cars not justifing the HUGE difference in price, hence the reason the Mustang outsells them and has lasted so long and will continue to do so. If Ford wants to be successful they need to figure out how to do what they do with the stangs with the rest of their cars; create a value buy by making a car whose cost savings in price is far greater than the loss in the quality.

VALUE=COST SAVINGS > QUALITY DIFFERENCE

If they can do this they will outsell their competitors all around, unfortunately for Ford the Mustang is only a small portion of the market and their products and they are losing the battle elsewhere.

Hollywood_North GT

Because you derive an emotional payoff of some kind?

YOU used the word "value," attaching to it your own definition ("cost savings"). Read what's on the page, not what you THINK you see between the lines. I said people are prepared to pay a little more for quality, PERIOD. I never used the word value once. But since YOU brought it up, value is defined as the regard that something is held to deserve, and for me (and apparently those no longer buying Ford products) it's NOT measured by "cost savings," as defined by things like rolling vehicles, substandard switches that lead to vehicle fires, and a long littany of things I could go on and on and on about...

I think you're just making stuff up as you go now...honestly. The NISSAN (for the last time, the branding is NO LONGER in doubt, dude, and neither is its arrival in North America), will share the platform underpinnings with the 350Z and the forthcoming Infiniti G35 coupe but any similarties to either of those two cars will end there. Sheetmetal will be unique, and the engine will be specific to the GT-R application.

Since I'll wager that you STILL don't believe me, try this:

Like I said, this is OLD NEWS.

Tres Wright

I think the only reason you guys want a 500 HP N/A Shelby is so that you can then stick a blower on it and make 700 HP

max2000jp

I feel the reason why Ford doesn't build big HP N/A engines is because they lack the experience. Ford uses a blower as a band aid, while Chevy uses R&D and engineering to build high hp engines like the LS7. Ford as a brand also doesn't have an engine here that has the displacement to play with the big boys N/A. Hopefully the products that I have heard of in development will change this. Ford's marketing campaign is geared towards innovation and I've seen nothing innovative in regards to their engine programs.

rhumb

I definitely think direct fuel injection systems like Audi/VW and others are starting to use is the next gen engine intake technology with benefits all across the board (emissions, power, economy, driveability, etc) and the sooner Ford adopts it, the better off they'll be. Even Ford sibling Mazda is adopting it on their 2.3 turbo motor showing up in various platforms (Mazdaspeed 6) at reasonable prices, so maybe they ought to tap Mazda's brain pool on that front.

The other big technology paradigm shift is Audi/VW's DSG transmission, which as some rag said, is the biggest advancement in tranny technology since the invention of synchronizers. As much as an old stick-wiggler that I am, DSG clearly is the superior technology of the future that I think will replace both current generation manuals and automatic trannies.

max2000jp

I think the future is definetly bright for direct injection. It leads to a more efficient burn which means greater control on emissions. Another technology that I feel is the future: Variable Geometry Turbochargers. The Porsche 997 Turbo has this technology and it's supposed to do away with turbo lag.

68notch

Blowers are band-aids now? LOL. There are plenty of 600+ rwhp Cobras and Mustangs out there who'd likely beg to differ. I'd love to hear your thoughts about vehicles with factory-equipped turbochargers.

max2000jp

Yes, Turbo's and blowers are band aids for a lack of displacement. Read a book or something before you make comments like that. FYI....I love Turbocharged vehicles, but there is something to be said for the throttle response and instant torque of a N/A motor. I'd take a 600 hp N/A V8 over a 600 hp Turbo 4/6 any day of the week.

The fact of the matter is that Ford lacks a high hp N/A motor in its line up. The Hurricane/Boss will hopefully address this problem and give Ford a true competitor to the Hemi/LS2.

rrobello

I don't think that's it. It may be that I get bored easily.

ok in that post where I quoted you I didnt fully clarify what I meant by value and I definately shouldnt have stopped at saying just cost savings, what I do mean by value is what I posted in a later response and it is the same as how you are looking at what value is; value of a purchase being cost vs. quality of what you are paying for. And in this case most people realize when they are getting a good value on their purchase and I think that is what they are looking for, not just quality. They want savings as well and if they can save money while sacrificing a bit of quality they will, as long as that loss of quality doesnt exceed the savings. (further elaborated in post #46). So when in responding to your saying people would rather have quality (I was including what you define as value in what they wouldn't rather have) I disagree, I think they are willing to let quality slide a bit to save some cash and purchase vehicles based on the value of the overall package; cost vs quality. (Obviously with some execptions of people who have tons of disposable income to play with)

A perfect example of this (since we are now discussing the GTR) is the 350Z and the G35 when they first came into the US market, the Infiniti offered more luxury, nicer interior, slightly more performance, all around better quality and IMO better looks, but at a higher cost. And even though this wasnt a huge price difference, people were not willing to pay it (for the most part) as they saw they werent getting a good value for the extra money they were spending and not getting the extra quality or performance. As a result the 350Z has completely outsold the G35 and has been the one to get the upgrades and is now the more powerful, better performing car, whereas the G35 stayed the same.

How am I making stuff up? Its not like I created the idea of the GT-S, Nissan did. Its a real concept in the works, as much as the GTR is, and it is very possible for the scenario I described to take place. In response to the rest of your comments, the G35 is already here and in Japan it is the R35 Skyline. The GTRs have always been a modified version of the base skylines, so in Japan it will be a modified version of what we call the G35, this includes the body kit. As for specifications on the car, please share this info you have on what it is going to be, I am interested in what they finally decided to go with. Thank you.

Thank you for finally providing some concrete evidence of anything to back up your arguements, I have asked many times before (including previous threads) and all you have ever done is just make your own statements. Like I had said I didnt see this info before, the latest info I had on the GTR was what I provided, which was a more in depth look as to what Ghosn had actually said in the press conference that Evil Capri had sited. Of which as of April 13th "Nissan had not yet decided whether the GT-R would be sold as a Nissan or an Infiniti in the United States."

But this information you have provided is more up to date, thank you, I havent read that before. But reading it some of the stuff is real old news, or at least in the world of Skyline enthusiasts it is. Such as enthusiasts in every country except the USA wanting it to be branded Nissan instead of Infiniti (but even here in the US true enthusiasts want it to be Nissan, its just those that are more apt at buying it, especially at 75K, would prefer it to be Infiniti, because it would tend to be a better quality car under that brand and thus justify the price tag [perfect example of value]). I am willing to bet that this debate over branding is still going on in their meetings no matter what they say to the public, it has to be, someone is still doing research to see if they can get 75K for a Nissan or if they are more likely to sell more of them if it is an Infiniti. This info you provided, while I am grateful for the news since I hadnt seen it yet, doesnt really change much. They are still calling it a concept, and we all know that from concept to production there is a lot of room for change and the production model wont be shown until the Tokyo show in 07. And even after that things change a lot before it goes into the build phase, look at the Shelby, that car was constantly being changed and fine tuned all the way up until they started to produce them, heck the HP ratings changed several times late in the game. So it is not out of the question that this GTR might still wind up as an infiniti here or at least Infiniti having their own version. As you provided in Nissans press release "Infiniti dealers are expected to get a redesigned G35 sedan...the company is mum on any other future products...[and] there is more room for [them] in the luxury crossover segment." Not to mention that the G35, not the 350Z, is the R35 in Japan, the 350Z was toned down and made over to be a unique car for Nissan, because they deemed that they couldnt get the price tag they wanted for the Skyline here as a Nissan so they badged it the Infiniti G35. This very well could happen again, don't be so close minded just because the president of Nissan says one thing; heck I remember when the 05 Mustang GT was suppose to be a 6speed Supercharged V8.

rrobello

they do build big motors that produce lots of HP, just dont put them into their vehicles and unfortunately they are still playing catch up with chevy on the crate motor front, but are making up ground quick. Ford currently has 460ci motor producing 550HP and 545ft/lbs and a 520ci motor producing 625HP and 600ft/lbs, hopefully we will soon be seeing some of this trickle down into our cars.

Evil_Capri

Hey rrobello . . .

That link I provide, while brief, was/is dated April 12th, which comes after April 7th. I get what you're saying though . . . that was a very weird week with the proper disclosure of who was getting the GT-R.

rrobello

sorry I corected my post, I dont know why I typed the 7th...lol. In my original response to your posting of the link I had my date correct though, the info I had was reported on the 13th about the same press conference that you were siting, but in more depth as to what Ghosn had said. It is all wierd as it always is when they slowly seep out the info they want you to know about new cars. My point is that it is still way to early in the game to say that everything is set in stone.

But thank you for pointing out my typo.

rrobello

BTW Evil Capri, nice avatar, do you have a bigger version of that pic?

Evil_Capri

Send you a link via PM.

max2000jp

I am sure you are referring to FRPP's crate motors. Both motors aren't EFI and won't pass modern emissions. Both motors are weak compared to the Bow Tie 572's from GMPP.