C'mon now...that ain't just Pepsi you're drinkin' over there!

And how's that been workin' out for them so far? Let's see, more losses this quarter. Hmmmm.

You need to get down off the soapbox and actually absorb what the guy was saying. Cause lemmie tell you something. Other makes may charge more for their quality, but they're financials are also a lot healthier than Ford's. That tells me that people are willing to pay more for quality - even if you're not.

Better get ready for an onslaught of powerful Japanese supercoupes, too, cause they're coming; beginning with the Nissan GT-R (Skyline), and it will DESTROY the Shelby in any contest (and don't talk "mods" to me). Will it cost more? You bet. So will the forthcoming V8 powered Supra from Toyota. But guess what, I betcha it will sell more units in the US than the Shelby. So, so much for the theory of "volume trumping quality and technology."

Ford needs to stop trying to be everything to everyone while catering to the lowest common denominator of the biggest possible market - instead, they need to focus on quality, customer service, and design and engineering innovation. It's the only way to get back on top and change perception.

 

I suppose someone would care to explain the logic, advantages, applications, and the differences between the thirsty 427 and the s/c 5.4.

I always thought the main purpose of muscle cars was being as inexpensive as possible as to allow us lower class, which happens to be a market of its own, to afford a fun means of transportation.

 

I think the proof is in the fact that in the past 45+ years of perfomance cars, no one has made a production car with 500hp for as little money as Ford is doing right now.

Off the top of my head, here are the 2007 model year cars out now with 500hp or more.

1. Ford Shelby GT500 (43-49K)
2. Chevrolet Z06 (65-80K)
3. Dodge Viper (95-100K)
4. BMW M5 (82-87K)
5. BMW M6 (96-102K)
6. Mercedes Benz SL55(130-150K)
7. A lot of Mercedes Benz AMG cars, starting at 140-200K
8. No reason to mention the exotic's like Lambo, Aston Martin, Ferrari etc.

It sounds like you have high hopes for this car, but you wish it were something that it isn't. If you're part of the very small niche market that wants a high performance Mustang that competes with the above cars, you may be better off building it yourself.

 

From here: http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/...line-gt-r.html

Whether it’s called the Nissan Skyline GT-R or just the Nissan GT-R, the 2009 model is expected to cost $75,000 when it goes on sale in the U.S. in the spring of 2008.
It will be coming onto the market right as the GT500 stops production. At 30-35K over the price of a GT500, it seems to be more of a Z06 fighter than a GT500 fighter. I'm sure Ford is flattered that you can even compare the two cars. This car is still a rumor for US production, but atleast they have a prototype to show, unlike the V8 Supra.

A V8 Supra in the US is only a rumor. When comparing cars, please try to use cars that exist.

I once saw a documentary of making a car and one car engineer said a major part of his job was 'protecting car buyers from themselves'. Dreams sometimes get in the way of reality.

 

Chrysler's 6.1L Hemi puts out 425HP (SAE)

Australian Ford NA 5.4L DOHC puts out 389HP.
GM's 6.0 LT1 and LS2 (corvette and GTO) both put out 400HP.

Even in race engines such as the 2000 Cobra R (NA 5.4L/385HP), and FR500C (NA 5.0L DOHC /~425HP), Ford hasn't been able to break the 500HP mark with a NA V8.

I know I've only used American/Australian examples, but I think 500HP from a NA engine at a reasonable price is still a tall order for Ford or anyone else.

EDIT: Or is it? See below.

 

Ok just to argue the other side for poops and grins (and after remembering this V10 experiment).

Ford engineers did develop a NA 351 C.I. (5.8L) V-10 in 2003 for the experimetal Boss 351.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...eleration.html
http://www.50mustangandsuperfords.co...ang/index.html

It's rwhp was 425-430 on dynojet, which comes out to somewhere between 475-495 at the flywheel. It was built by a "handful of rogue engineers" at Ford mostly using existing parts.
1/4 mile, sec @ mph 12.88 @ 114.44 (MotorTrend) and 11.93 @117 (5.0 Mag)

So there you have it. Ford already created a ~500hp NA engine and has already tested it in a Mustang. It can be done using mostly existing parts which I would guess means it could be built for a reasonable price.

And for less weight:
The Boss 351 used a 2003 Cobra body. The MotorTrend article lists the curb weight of this Boss 351 at an est. 3565lbs. A 2003 Cobra weighed 100lbs more, and I would guess that a 07 GT500's engine weighs more than a 03 Cobra engine, so a NA 5.8L V10 in the GT-500 might shave off 100-200lbs.

Ford could have put a lighter, slightly less powerful, NA 5.8L V10 in the GT-500 but chose not to.

Case closed.

 

Hear that sound? It's the clue train, last stop you.

THESE COMPANIES DON'T CARE ABOUT PUTTING OUT THE MOST POWER POSSIBLE.

If they were trying to put out the most power possible we would be buying 1300rwhp cars off the show room floor. It's not like it's a big secret how to get big power N/A. Any idiot with wrenches can make a 700hp small block these days. It's nothing. The companies are just trying to sell you a car that you want to buy, nothing more. Stop looking into this as hp vs displacement, that's a ricer argument. You're looking way to far into this issue. It's all about making money, not competing with each other.

 

Still obsessing over price rather than quality and market share, huh?

The GT-R is NO LONGER rumored for US production - it is definitely coming.

You are correct about the Supra V8 being only a "study" right now.

The point is that the Shelby will very shortly be outgunned by the imports in the one category in which it hopes to excel: performance. But you're right, it's "cheap." So three cheers for that!

Oh, no...wait, you're wrong. There's those pesky dealer markups.

Bollocks!

 

Wait a sec, are you saying we're "lower class"?

Oh crap, I must've missed another meeting.

 

Ahhhhhhh, yes, grasshopper, but in order to make money they MUST compete with each other, correct?

 

Yes I would defend not only my right to free speech but yours as well, you are entitled to your opinion and you are definately entitled to voice it, but what I was talking about is that this is a MUSTANG forum and you and your oppinion are bashing Ford and the Shelby, why? because you think that foreign competitors are better because they can squeeze more power per liter out of their motors; great but dont expect to get much love from anyone here. If you would like to engage in an enlightened conversation about your oppinion vs. mine then great I welcome that; however your initial post in this thread (and this could very well be just how I interpreted it) was an attack on Ford and the Shelby and at the very least a very non-favorable viewpoint of the two.

Actually I think that getting so offended that someone challenged your viewpoint and getting real defensive real quick and responding in an immature manner by attacking said person is a sign of insecurity, but that's just my opinion

Is that 5 Fords all at the same time or did you go through 5 in 1.5 years?

It actually doesnt sound like you like Fords at all. Why would you come out saying that they should be more like Audi or Porsche if you liked them so much? And dont say that owning 5 in 1.5 years proves you like Ford, because that could be just because you can't afford the Audis and the Porsches you wish your Ford could be.

And for the record I am a huge Ford fan, especially the Mustang. Since I was little all I ever wanted was an early model Mustang, then when I was old enough to legally drive and Ford came out with the body style change in 94 I set my sights on that, and I got it (on my own). And when I heard of this new style I again wanted it and got it (again on my own). I have owned and driven many cars (including Audis and Porsches) and although I can buy pretty much any car I want, the ones I keep around and will forever are my stangs, I am currently looking for a 67 fastback to restore and will be purchasing the next body change in 09, and while other cars I own may come and go, the PONIES will always remain in my stable.

I did read what you wrote, did you? Better yet did you even read what I wrote? Because 1) You wrote: "When you read about these foreign hot rods" and you were, in that post, talking about Hondas, Porsches and Audis, although I assumed that you were talking about the later two and not including the Hondas (or at least so I hoped); heck you even quoted yourself as calling these cars hotrods in your own rebutle (see bold text above in your own post) and 2) I wrote in response: "Foreign markets do NOT build Muscle cars or hot rods" I never singled out Hondas as to what you may have been speaking of, just foreign cars in general and NO THEY DO NOT BUILD HOT RODS, they build sports cars and exotics but not hot rods.

No the GT 1, 2 and 3s started out as RACE CARS, that porsche enthusiasts wanted their own and so they made streetable, yet track ready SPORTS CARS, not HOT RODS. They even still make some of these as track only race cars as an alternative option for true porsche enthusiasts.

Which Audi are you talking about? The RS4? Again that is not a hot rod, that is a $66K 4 door Sedan with a 4.2L V8 producing 420HP, when compared to the Shelby you have the Audi with 100HP/L and the Shelby with 92.59HP/L for a whopping difference of 7.41HP/L and $16K, so that would mean that buying the Audi you are paying $2159.24 for every 1 additional horse you are getting, ok now I get where you are coming from that makes so much sense to spend over 2 grand for 1 HP....WTF? If you are to apply the same math to comparing it to the 4.6L Mustang GT you are spending additional $1150.09/HP when buying the audi over the stang.

Why wouldn't you call this a hot rod, since you are obviously defining hot rod as maximum HP output vs Liters? We already established that the RS4 is creating 100HP/L and the Honda S2000 is creating 109HP/L so by your very own definition it would be a hot rod.

Why not? Along with this more HP with a smaller motor and direct injection obviously comes price, so it IS a factor, why shouldnt we talk about it? Because it would make your arguement completely ridiculous?

 

Brace yourself...I agree with you. I would love to see Ford stop catering to the weenie secretaries that buy the V6s and thus make the rest of the line just barely cut aboves and start at least making the Cobras a full out sports car that will compete with the corvettes on all levels, they can start by making them a fricken 2 seater for crying out loud, how hard is that? I am sure not too many people buying the Shelby are buying it as a family car. But whether or not it is succeeding for Ford, this is how they are doing it, catering to what they deem is the largest possible market and that is what I was arguing; that because they are doing that (financial success aside) they are attempting to keep the mustangs affordable and thus why they will not (in any immediate future) venture down the road that porsche and audi have taken to improve their HP/L output.

I will not get into the skyline and supra arguements for it is not only completely off topic, but also a completely moot point since they are still only in their concept phases and we do not know what they will officially be releasing here in the US, I have heard so many things on these cars and it keeps going back and forth on the motor alone, none the less the HP ratings. We will just have to cross that bridge when we get to it.

 

well put, not only are these cars not a reality yet, but the manufactuers cant even make up their mind which brand they will release it under, the GTR was originally said to be an Infinity, and it has gone back and forth between that and a Nissan (yes they are the same, but here in the states they are obviously 2 different brands), and now it is back to being a Nissan. and the supra which is only rumors right now, also is going back and forth in the rumor mill, will it be a toyota or will it be a lexus? who knows, the manufactuer sure as heck doesnt so why start to bring these cars up now, by the time the cars come out Ford will have something new and we can compare that to them.

 

And the Skyline wont have a huge markup? if they do come out with a MSRP of $75K as rumored then expect them to sell for closer to 100K if not over, so my guess would be that you will not see too many of these on the road, probably be as frequent as the R34s or the NSX (since thats already here). Dont see too many of those around (or at least I dont), probably because of 2 reasons; 1)these asian imports are marketed more towards younger kids and early 20 somethings, and they will for the most part not have the cash to dish out for them and 2)because the adults who will have that kind of money to dump into a car would probably get something not only better but more reasonable, say a Z06 for less or if they want to spend the big bucks an SL55 or some exotic or something (if they are just buying a toy; it won't be Nissan though)

 

That's funny, because the original Toyota Supra's story contradicts your logic. If you recall, it was pulled from the US market after MY1998 because Americans didn't think its "quality and technology" was worth the $40-45K MSRP's. The Mustang, in various guises, persisted. Why? Value.

 

You're not listening...or reading. The GT-R is CONFIRMED for the US. It is to be branded as a Nissan - not an Infiniti. Both these bits of CONFIRMED news are actually quite old now (six weeks or so).

 

I should have clarified that I was speaking more of across the entire model line(s), but your point is valid.

I would also suggest that things have changed dramatically in the almost 10 years since Toyota made that decision about the last Supra: witness all the high performance automobiles (foreign and otherwise) making a sudden resurgence in the past few years. Toyota may have been premature, and I think the Supra's dissappearance was only ever a temporary circumstance.

 

I actually responed before reading your discussion about the GTR, however I still havent heard anything confirmed about it being built and which company name it will be under, if you have concrete info Id be very interested in reading it. Everytime I read anything about it or hear about it it keeps going back and forth so I have not heard any concrete info on if it is a go or not, at least no here in the states.

Here is the latest info I have heard about any GTR, it was as of July 9th:
2006 Nissan 350Z GT-S Concept
"A small team of Nissan development engineers working in their spare time transformed a 350Z into a highly tuned ‘Saturday Special’. Called the GT-S, the supercharged super coupe is a performance-focused version of Nissan’s acclaimed ‘Z-‘car’ and is designed to appeal to enthusiastic 350Z owners who simply want more.

Its first public outing will be at the Goodwood Festival of Speed (7-9 July) where it will join other exotic road cars in the Supercar Paddock and on the famous hillclimb course.

Although boasting a power hike and a substantially modified chassis, the GT-S is far from being a stripped out racing car with a rock hard ride and a peaky power delivery.

Nissan’s Communications Director Wayne Bruce says: "The GT-S has been created as a real car not an ornament.

"We wanted to build a ‘Club Special’ that could still be used to commute to work during the week but would provide added thrills at the weekend: a weekday workhorse and a weekend warrior in one distinctive package."

The project’s technical leader Steve Robbins – who during the week is a senior engineer in the new vehicle evaluation team at NTCE – gathered together half a dozen like-minded enthusiasts to work on the project.

Working after hours and at the weekend, the team members came from within NTCE and also from outside suppliers and was known internally as the S-Club Seven.

The principal changes made to turn the 350Z into the GT-S center on its engine and chassis. Using a supercharger installation from Swiss manufacturers Novidem, power has increased by more than 25 per cent from 300 bhp to 382 bhp, while torque rises from 260 lb-ft to a heady 314 lb-ft.

Performance gains are expected to include a one second cut in the benchmark 0-60 mph time (5.8 seconds for the standard 350Z) with 2.5 seconds slashed from the 0-100 mph time.

And it sounds better, too, thanks to an electronically controlled by-pass valve that enriches the exhaust note at a pre-determined engine speed.

NTCE engineers have undertaken the suspension changes. Working closely with specialists from Bilstein, the changes concentrate on optimizing road performance, with improvements in both handling ability and ride comfort, particularly on British ‘B’ roads. Wider wheels and tires complete the chassis alterations.

A wind tunnel developed body/aero kit from German firm Strosek not only gives the all-black GT-S a distinctive look, but also improves the 350Z’s aerodynamic performance with increased front and rear downforce at speed. The package is completed by a NVH pack which makes the GT-S even more civilized than the standard 350Z.

Steve Robbins said: "We could have produced a *****-out racer with huge power outputs and very little suspension movement. But while this would have created a superb racer, it would have been virtually unusable on the road. Instead we approached the GT-S from an engineering stand-point with a view to creating a 350Z that provides more of everything: performance, handling, looks, comfort and excitement.

"We also looked at the possible marketing potential of such a project and have designed the improvements as individual ‘packs’ – an engine pack, a suspension pack, aero pack and so on – and kept a close eye on costs."

So will the GT-S ultimately become more than a weekend project by a group of mavericks? Nissan is saying nothing officially, though insiders point to its appearance at Goodwood as a sign the company is giving the GT-S concept serious consideration."

Configuration:
Front Engine/RWD

Engine:
Supercharged V6

Displacement:
3498 cc

Horsepower:
382 bhp @ ---- rpm

Torque:
314 lb-ft @ ---- rpm

Max RPM:
7200 rpm

Transmission:
6-Speed Manual

And with this info it looks like Nissan is taking a cue from Ford and lowering the HP to cut costs so it can be affordable to a wider target audience so they can sell more, because at that power rating there is no way anyone would pay 75K for it (at least I hope not), so much for your theory of people rather paying for quality over value, and so much for the GTR being any competition.

 

http://www.nissanusa.com/09gt-r/?Sit...CMP=KNC-Google