How Ford could have made 500hp naturally aspirated on the GT500.
7/7/06, 09:15 AM
#1
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How Ford could have made 500hp naturally aspirated on the GT500.
Ford could have made 500+hp naturally aspirated on the GT500.
And the car would weigh 200-300 lbs less.
Audi uses direct injection and is making 419 hp out of a 4.2L (254 cid) motor in their RS 4 sedan.
That's 1.65 hp per cubic inch based on a quick running of the numbers.
On a 5.4 (329 cid) Ford that's 544 hp. Subtract 44 hp to run at lower revs then the Audi and Porsches and you still meet your 500hp goal.
Porsche on their GT3 makes 415 hp out of 3.6L (220 cid). That's 1.9hp per cubic inch and it didn't mention direct injection, and 605 hp out of their 5.7 L V10 in the Carerra GT(over 1.7 hp per cubic inch.
Toss the supercharger on the 5.4 and that should have paid for an aluminum block. How about an engine design that is current? They've been designing, building testing 4 cammers for well over 10 years!
Ford cut corners fixing Jaguar and it costs them to this day.
Isn't their anyone there who makes the big decisions that won't wimp out to the bean counters/car killers?!
They could have built a Shelby GT350 by stepping up the 4.6 3 valve like Saleen Inc. is doing and offered it in the low $30's, made a bunch o' money and done the GT500 the (lightway) right way and made even more money.
IMHO-
And the car would weigh 200-300 lbs less.
Audi uses direct injection and is making 419 hp out of a 4.2L (254 cid) motor in their RS 4 sedan.
That's 1.65 hp per cubic inch based on a quick running of the numbers.
On a 5.4 (329 cid) Ford that's 544 hp. Subtract 44 hp to run at lower revs then the Audi and Porsches and you still meet your 500hp goal.
Porsche on their GT3 makes 415 hp out of 3.6L (220 cid). That's 1.9hp per cubic inch and it didn't mention direct injection, and 605 hp out of their 5.7 L V10 in the Carerra GT(over 1.7 hp per cubic inch.
Toss the supercharger on the 5.4 and that should have paid for an aluminum block. How about an engine design that is current? They've been designing, building testing 4 cammers for well over 10 years!
Ford cut corners fixing Jaguar and it costs them to this day.
Isn't their anyone there who makes the big decisions that won't wimp out to the bean counters/car killers?!
They could have built a Shelby GT350 by stepping up the 4.6 3 valve like Saleen Inc. is doing and offered it in the low $30's, made a bunch o' money and done the GT500 the (lightway) right way and made even more money.
IMHO-
7/7/06, 10:01 AM
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What your saying is fine and all, but have you seen just how much the RS4 and the new GT3 costs? The RS4 is over $73,000, and the GT3 is over $100,000. While I agree that their engines are amazing (and they are, I LOVE the GT3) in regards to just how much power they generate naturally, the negative of this, is the cost of the motor. If you launch one of those motors, the expense is staggering. It kinda goes in hand in regards to the Ford GT motor. If it were able to fit ( I know it can't being dry sump), but if it could, that motor costs ALOT of $$$. It would have made the car cost much more than it does now.
7/7/06, 12:00 PM
#4
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The cost isn't big i.e. Honda- 237 hp from 131 cid
Even Honda is making 237 hp out of 2.15 L right?
And their cars aren't pricey.
The German cars...Porsche's always gouge their customers, so their prices are out of whack somewhat, again, there is a lot more $$ spent on other parts of those cars I think then just the motors.
The Audi cost is wrapped up in much more than the engine also IMHO.
When you read about these foreign hot rods and how they've achieved more hp etc....the recurring theme is they are all just using hot rod smarts, lighter rotating mass, more airflow etc. Obviously direct injection lets you run higher compression and keeps things cooler.
But Honda's not using it and they are getting 1.8 hp per cubic inch.
It just seems the foreign automakers (and I prefer to buy US at all costs) have this attitude of 'WE WILL NOT COMPROMISE ON PERFORMANCE' AND KEEPING the WEIGHT DOWN'.
Is that oversimplifying it?
And they have the sales to prove people will pay for it.
That Honda roadster could have been built by the Big 3 (with a V8!)
And their cars aren't pricey.
The German cars...Porsche's always gouge their customers, so their prices are out of whack somewhat, again, there is a lot more $$ spent on other parts of those cars I think then just the motors.
The Audi cost is wrapped up in much more than the engine also IMHO.
When you read about these foreign hot rods and how they've achieved more hp etc....the recurring theme is they are all just using hot rod smarts, lighter rotating mass, more airflow etc. Obviously direct injection lets you run higher compression and keeps things cooler.
But Honda's not using it and they are getting 1.8 hp per cubic inch.
It just seems the foreign automakers (and I prefer to buy US at all costs) have this attitude of 'WE WILL NOT COMPROMISE ON PERFORMANCE' AND KEEPING the WEIGHT DOWN'.
Is that oversimplifying it?
And they have the sales to prove people will pay for it.
That Honda roadster could have been built by the Big 3 (with a V8!)
7/7/06, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 427sohc
Even Honda is making 237 hp out of 2.15 L right?
And their cars aren't pricey.
The German cars...Porsche's always gouge their customers, so their prices are out of whack somewhat, again, there is a lot more $$ spent on other parts of those cars I think then just the motors.
The Audi cost is wrapped up in much more than the engine also IMHO.
When you read about these foreign hot rods and how they've achieved more hp etc....the recurring theme is they are all just using hot rod smarts, lighter rotating mass, more airflow etc. Obviously direct injection lets you run higher compression and keeps things cooler.
But Honda's not using it and they are getting 1.8 hp per cubic inch.
It just seems the foreign automakers (and I prefer to buy US at all costs) have this attitude of 'WE WILL NOT COMPROMISE ON PERFORMANCE' AND KEEPING the WEIGHT DOWN'.
Is that oversimplifying it?
And they have the sales to prove people will pay for it.
That Honda roadster could have been built by the Big 3 (with a V8!)
And their cars aren't pricey.
The German cars...Porsche's always gouge their customers, so their prices are out of whack somewhat, again, there is a lot more $$ spent on other parts of those cars I think then just the motors.
The Audi cost is wrapped up in much more than the engine also IMHO.
When you read about these foreign hot rods and how they've achieved more hp etc....the recurring theme is they are all just using hot rod smarts, lighter rotating mass, more airflow etc. Obviously direct injection lets you run higher compression and keeps things cooler.
But Honda's not using it and they are getting 1.8 hp per cubic inch.
It just seems the foreign automakers (and I prefer to buy US at all costs) have this attitude of 'WE WILL NOT COMPROMISE ON PERFORMANCE' AND KEEPING the WEIGHT DOWN'.
Is that oversimplifying it?
And they have the sales to prove people will pay for it.
That Honda roadster could have been built by the Big 3 (with a V8!)
Thankfully, we may be seeing embryonic signs now - at long last - that the company is attempting to reinvent itself.
7/7/06, 06:14 PM
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YOu don't understand, natural aspiration sucks, FO allows for a much better mod for mod power gain because of the blower, plus if they'd of done a NA motor they'd of used cheap-*** internals, but it doesn't matter because the GT500 has that pos truck block that cant take any power unless its got a girdle and all, but once all strengthed the truck guys say it can take 1000hp along with the stock crank, so who knows?
7/7/06, 07:51 PM
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What else can be said? Ford took the "cheap & easy" way out. But then again, do they really want an engine that could upstage the one in the Ford GT? Maybe when they get around to integrating the improvements from the Fusion's new V6 engine into upgraded/new V8's, then we'll start seeing some improvement in power output and maybe even economy...
7/7/06, 08:02 PM
#8
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There are factory cars doing 11 sec 1/4 et's naturally aspirated
I don't doubt that some of the internals would be crap.
When will that stop?
My point above was that we are all waiting for the Big 3 to finally get it.All these foreign automakers that are doing well put quality in.
Mercedes used to build to a quality standard. Then they caved in to the beancounters and built to a price standard. And the quality got hammered, sales took a beating.
There are naturally aspirated cars doing 11's....Ford could do 12's.
Quality sells, Lexus was a nobody, took on 2 giants Mercedes and BMW and became a somebody fast because of quality and service.-
It tells you something when none of their guys can be recruited away to help fix Ford or GM.
When will that stop?
My point above was that we are all waiting for the Big 3 to finally get it.All these foreign automakers that are doing well put quality in.
Mercedes used to build to a quality standard. Then they caved in to the beancounters and built to a price standard. And the quality got hammered, sales took a beating.
There are naturally aspirated cars doing 11's....Ford could do 12's.
Quality sells, Lexus was a nobody, took on 2 giants Mercedes and BMW and became a somebody fast because of quality and service.-
It tells you something when none of their guys can be recruited away to help fix Ford or GM.
7/7/06, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 427sohc
I don't doubt that some of the internals would be crap.
When will that stop?
My point above was that we are all waiting for the Big 3 to finally get it.All these foreign automakers that are doing well put quality in.
Mercedes used to build to a quality standard. Then they caved in to the beancounters and built to a price standard. And the quality got hammered, sales took a beating.
There are naturally aspirated cars doing 11's....Ford could do 12's.
Quality sells, Lexus was a nobody, took on 2 giants Mercedes and BMW and became a somebody fast because of quality and service.-
It tells you something when none of their guys can be recruited away to help fix Ford or GM.
When will that stop?
My point above was that we are all waiting for the Big 3 to finally get it.All these foreign automakers that are doing well put quality in.
Mercedes used to build to a quality standard. Then they caved in to the beancounters and built to a price standard. And the quality got hammered, sales took a beating.
There are naturally aspirated cars doing 11's....Ford could do 12's.
Quality sells, Lexus was a nobody, took on 2 giants Mercedes and BMW and became a somebody fast because of quality and service.-
It tells you something when none of their guys can be recruited away to help fix Ford or GM.
HAVING SAID THAT, Ford ought to - and must - be able to shortly offer vehicles as good as - BETTER, frankly - as Honda and Toyota. It should be left to Lincoln to challenge Lexus, and so far, Lincoln's don't even come CLOSE to Lexus - ANY Lexus - in terms of quality or refinement.
Finally, Ford needs to gut and revamp its dealer network in an effort to dramatically improve customer service and ultimate perception. Fail to do that, and all the quality in the world won't save them either at this point.
Here's hoping...
7/7/06, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 05fordgt
What your saying is fine and all, but have you seen just how much the RS4 and the new GT3 costs? The RS4 is over $73,000, and the GT3 is over $100,000. While I agree that their engines are amazing (and they are, I LOVE the GT3) in regards to just how much power they generate naturally, the negative of this, is the cost of the motor. If you launch one of those motors, the expense is staggering. It kinda goes in hand in regards to the Ford GT motor. If it were able to fit ( I know it can't being dry sump), but if it could, that motor costs ALOT of $$$. It would have made the car cost much more than it does now.
actually the dry sump oiling system would do nothing but make more room for the engine to fit in there, would probably allow the engine to sit lower
7/8/06, 08:17 AM
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You're missing the point...
Originally Posted by rrobello
so go buy an Audi or a Porsche, what are you doing here biatching about it? sheesh!
Even Honda is making 237 hp out approximately 131 cid.
1.8 hp per cubic inch.
On a 4.6 that's 505 hp...and a nice light front end-
That 2000s roadster isn't too pricey ...low $30's.
That motor isn't rocket science and Honda wouldn't make it too expensive to replace.
Our American cars would have never gotten to this point without consumers complaining about poor quality and demanding quality similar to their foriegn rivals.
So don't complain about some of us who are happy we have a Mustang GT, much overdue also, but much better than the last one, and a Shelby GT500, but that could have made without as many compromises.
The Big 3 have gotten better only when they have been pushed, but they are not where they should be, and they have had a long time, too long to get it right.
I'd like the Big 3 to lead the world in automaking, and I think everybody on this forum would agree. It would be great for the USA obviously-
7/8/06, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 427sohc
As I said above...
Even Honda is making 237 hp out approximately 131 cid.
1.8 hp per cubic inch.
On a 4.6 that's 505 hp...and a nice light front end-
That 2000s roadster isn't too pricey ...low $30's.
That motor isn't rocket science and Honda wouldn't make it too expensive to replace.
Our American cars would have never gotten to this point without consumers complaining about poor quality and demanding quality similar to their foriegn rivals.
So don't complain about some of us who are happy we have a Mustang GT, much overdue also, but much better than the last one, and a Shelby GT500, but that could have made without as many compromises.
The Big 3 have gotten better only when they have been pushed, but they are not where they should be, and they have had a long time, too long to get it right.
I'd like the Big 3 to lead the world in automaking, and I think everybody on this forum would agree. It would be great for the USA obviously-
Even Honda is making 237 hp out approximately 131 cid.
1.8 hp per cubic inch.
On a 4.6 that's 505 hp...and a nice light front end-
That 2000s roadster isn't too pricey ...low $30's.
That motor isn't rocket science and Honda wouldn't make it too expensive to replace.
Our American cars would have never gotten to this point without consumers complaining about poor quality and demanding quality similar to their foriegn rivals.
So don't complain about some of us who are happy we have a Mustang GT, much overdue also, but much better than the last one, and a Shelby GT500, but that could have made without as many compromises.
The Big 3 have gotten better only when they have been pushed, but they are not where they should be, and they have had a long time, too long to get it right.
I'd like the Big 3 to lead the world in automaking, and I think everybody on this forum would agree. It would be great for the USA obviously-
heres a possible reason that Ford doesnt make a mustang like that, PRICE, for instance the 2003 Ford BA Falcon FPV GT-P, 394HP NA V8 cost=$64k for a 4 door FORD sedan, the 2000 Cobra R NA was 385HP and cost 55K it could easily be tweaked to 450-500HP NA but then Ford wouldve had to have sold it closer to 65-70K. Incase you havent notice their main goal with the Mustang is to make it affordable so that they can market it to the biggest consumer group possible. And its not like Ford cant build cars with that much power NA, they just chose to do it the least expensive way so that I dont have to pay 40K for a 300HP car like you do with the 333HP M3. They are saving me 15K for a measily 33HP which I can easily make up with a few cheap boltons.
Here are some cars Ford has built that shows they can achieve this goal (grant it they didnt come onto the market but they built them none the less showing that Ford does know how to build them, they choose not to)
1994 Ford SVT 10.0L Boss Mustang NA V8 855HP
2002 Ford FR100 Concept (truck) NA V8 425HP
2003 Ford Mustang Fastback Concept (in a 65 Body) NA 5.0L V8 420HP
2003 Ford 427 Concept NA V10 590HP
2003 Ford Focus RS8 Concept NA V8 5.0L 420HP
2004 Ford Shelby GR-1 Concept NA V10 605HP
2004 Ford Shelby Cobra Concept NA V10 6.4L 605HP
2004 Ford Mustang GT-R Concept NA 5.0L 440HP
Heck theyve even done crazy stuff like the V12 Indigo in 1996 and the GT90 Quad-Turbo V12 720HP in 1995. Heck Ford has been building 400+HP cars since the 60s and 70s, like the 1970 Boss 429 way underrated at 375HP by Ford when it was in reality over 400HP. Ford has had the capability a lot longer than any foreign competitor to build big HP NA motors, the key here is that they are building a muscle car; meaning BIG motor w/ good amounts of HP and lots of potential. Lets get realistic if they were to build a motor with the same displacement to HP ratio that you mention the other cars having then they would have a NA 5.4L 650-700HP car, which for a daily driver how many people are gonna buy that? Heck not even Ferrari does that. Their latest V12 street legal (currently being sold and on the road) is only producing 540HP (its the SuperAmerica) why dont you go onto a Ferrari site and biatch to them about why they arent making more power? The reality of the matter is that we want a big motored muscle car that is reasonably priced and reasonable to drive, not the same power with a 2-3L car at a higher price. If I wanted two liters Id go to my fridge and drink my Pepsi. This can hardly be called a hotrod like you called them. Foreign markets do NOT build Muscle cars or hot rods, they build very good economy, luxury, touring, sports and even exotic cars but they do not fit the market we Mustang owners want, BIG AMERICAN MOTORS!!!
On top of this (like I somewhat already touched on) not only are they marketing to the greatest number of people that they can (where as Audi and Porsche market to a small group of people) Ford is also marketing towards a group of enthusiasts who love to modify their car (the Mustang is the most modified car in America), so by keeping it cheap and with a lot of potential to make the car stronger, faster and better all around they are making everyone happy (well I guess except for you).
If you would like Ford does own Aston Martin, Jaguar and Mazda you can buy a foreign car like you want it, small motor, big HP and BIG price tag (or small price with the mazdas, but even smaller motor with less HP) and you can do that while still contributing to the American economy....lol!!!
7/8/06, 02:24 PM
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Direct inject is the next big thing. It starts on expensive cars, then imports, and works its way to domestic vehicles after a few years. Kind of like VVT. However... the pontiac solstice will have DI next year.
7/8/06, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 427sohc
On a 4.6 that's 505 hp...and a nice light front end-
The Z06 Corvette makes that much power, but with 427 cubic inches. Too bad that car also costs 65k-80k.
I think you have unrealistic expectations of a mass produced pony car.
7/8/06, 03:03 PM
#17
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Its interesting R Robello how you'd probably defend your right for free speech, but for anyone with a different view point can't post here.
Everyone on this board know's that's just insecurity.
I put my money where my mouth is...no one gave me anything, I could've bought other makes , but I personally bought 5 brand new Fords in a 1.5 years....
You can only hope to like Ford's as much as I do.
The Big 3 has adopted many foriegn car manufacturing techniques to get us better cars, we aren't allowed to talk about that here?!
If you read what I said instead of just ranting to see yourself in print, I didn't say Honda's were hot rods, I wrote
"The German cars...Porsche's always gouge their customers, so their prices are out of whack somewhat, again, there is a lot more $$ spent on other parts of those cars I think then just the motors.
The Audi cost is wrapped up in much more than the engine also IMHO.
When you read about these foreign hot rods and how they've achieved more hp etc....the recurring theme is they are all just using hot rod smarts, lighter rotating mass, more airflow etc. Obviously direct injection lets you run higher compression and keeps things cooler."
The Porsche GT3 (flat 6 not a V8 like I buy) makes 415 hp...that's a hot rod.
The Audi is a 419 hp V8..that's a hot rod.
If the Honda owners want to call their 4 cyl S2000 2.15L a hot rod with 131 cid, I disagree.
But fuse 2 of those motors together like Ford did, (which they detune a little for their affordable sedans) which they might when they go V8, and they'd have 467 hp....like Aston Martin does and more from those Taurus Duratec's.
The Aston Martin V12 as everyone may know started life as 2 V6 Duratec's fused together.
So let's not talk about how expensive these high output foriegn motors are supposed to be.
Everyone on this board know's that's just insecurity.
I put my money where my mouth is...no one gave me anything, I could've bought other makes , but I personally bought 5 brand new Fords in a 1.5 years....
You can only hope to like Ford's as much as I do.
The Big 3 has adopted many foriegn car manufacturing techniques to get us better cars, we aren't allowed to talk about that here?!
If you read what I said instead of just ranting to see yourself in print, I didn't say Honda's were hot rods, I wrote
"The German cars...Porsche's always gouge their customers, so their prices are out of whack somewhat, again, there is a lot more $$ spent on other parts of those cars I think then just the motors.
The Audi cost is wrapped up in much more than the engine also IMHO.
When you read about these foreign hot rods and how they've achieved more hp etc....the recurring theme is they are all just using hot rod smarts, lighter rotating mass, more airflow etc. Obviously direct injection lets you run higher compression and keeps things cooler."
The Porsche GT3 (flat 6 not a V8 like I buy) makes 415 hp...that's a hot rod.
The Audi is a 419 hp V8..that's a hot rod.
If the Honda owners want to call their 4 cyl S2000 2.15L a hot rod with 131 cid, I disagree.
But fuse 2 of those motors together like Ford did, (which they detune a little for their affordable sedans) which they might when they go V8, and they'd have 467 hp....like Aston Martin does and more from those Taurus Duratec's.
The Aston Martin V12 as everyone may know started life as 2 V6 Duratec's fused together.
So let's not talk about how expensive these high output foriegn motors are supposed to be.
7/8/06, 03:30 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by nonsensez9
Direct inject is the next big thing. It starts on expensive cars, then imports, and works its way to domestic vehicles after a few years. Kind of like VVT. However... the pontiac solstice will have DI next year.
7/8/06, 04:49 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by 427sohc
... Everyone on this board know's that's just insecurity...
Would that include second guessing?
7/8/06, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 427sohc
Its interesting R Robello how you'd probably defend your right for free speech, but for anyone with a different view point can't post here.
Everyone on this board know's that's just insecurity.
I put my money where my mouth is...no one gave me anything, I could've bought other makes , but I personally bought 5 brand new Fords in a 1.5 years....
You can only hope to like Ford's as much as I do.
The Big 3 has adopted many foriegn car manufacturing techniques to get us better cars, we aren't allowed to talk about that here?!
If you read what I said instead of just ranting to see yourself in print, I didn't say Honda's were hot rods, I wrote
"The German cars...Porsche's always gouge their customers, so their prices are out of whack somewhat, again, there is a lot more $$ spent on other parts of those cars I think then just the motors.
The Audi cost is wrapped up in much more than the engine also IMHO.
When you read about these foreign hot rods and how they've achieved more hp etc....the recurring theme is they are all just using hot rod smarts, lighter rotating mass, more airflow etc. Obviously direct injection lets you run higher compression and keeps things cooler."
The Porsche GT3 (flat 6 not a V8 like I buy) makes 415 hp...that's a hot rod.
The Audi is a 419 hp V8..that's a hot rod.
If the Honda owners want to call their 4 cyl S2000 2.15L a hot rod with 131 cid, I disagree.
But fuse 2 of those motors together like Ford did, (which they detune a little for their affordable sedans) which they might when they go V8, and they'd have 467 hp....like Aston Martin does and more from those Taurus Duratec's.
The Aston Martin V12 as everyone may know started life as 2 V6 Duratec's fused together.
So let's not talk about how expensive these high output foriegn motors are supposed to be.
Everyone on this board know's that's just insecurity.
I put my money where my mouth is...no one gave me anything, I could've bought other makes , but I personally bought 5 brand new Fords in a 1.5 years....
You can only hope to like Ford's as much as I do.
The Big 3 has adopted many foriegn car manufacturing techniques to get us better cars, we aren't allowed to talk about that here?!
If you read what I said instead of just ranting to see yourself in print, I didn't say Honda's were hot rods, I wrote
"The German cars...Porsche's always gouge their customers, so their prices are out of whack somewhat, again, there is a lot more $$ spent on other parts of those cars I think then just the motors.
The Audi cost is wrapped up in much more than the engine also IMHO.
When you read about these foreign hot rods and how they've achieved more hp etc....the recurring theme is they are all just using hot rod smarts, lighter rotating mass, more airflow etc. Obviously direct injection lets you run higher compression and keeps things cooler."
The Porsche GT3 (flat 6 not a V8 like I buy) makes 415 hp...that's a hot rod.
The Audi is a 419 hp V8..that's a hot rod.
If the Honda owners want to call their 4 cyl S2000 2.15L a hot rod with 131 cid, I disagree.
But fuse 2 of those motors together like Ford did, (which they detune a little for their affordable sedans) which they might when they go V8, and they'd have 467 hp....like Aston Martin does and more from those Taurus Duratec's.
The Aston Martin V12 as everyone may know started life as 2 V6 Duratec's fused together.
So let's not talk about how expensive these high output foriegn motors are supposed to be.
What about mazda's rotary engine? It has 1.3 liters and makes like 255 hp I believe.