Want, want want. But Why?
 

Everything I have read about installing a CAI with a tune outweighs my thoughts of doing damage to the engine and voiding my warranty, and I'm ready to plunk down the cash, but I gotta ask, why didn't Ford program the ECM to be as aggressive as the aftermarket tunes are to begin with. Why would they leave HP on the table when they're in a dog-eat-dog fight with Chevrolet over HP ratings? Are there long term dependency issues if you run the hot tunes? Are they being cautious due to the variability of quality fuel in their marketing area?

I plan on owning this ride for a while. I do not want to shorten it's lifespan or resale capability.

Ford beats the Camaro down no problem even with less HP...I think it's because they know people are going to go out and tune these things themselves and they want something to be left in the engine for the owner to do themselves...they run a conservative tune and everything is fine when you do yours....believe it or not they know what they're doing...

I can't offer too much advice but I can say that Ford does have to meet certain regs and probably more HP isn't beneficial to them. Also fuel consumption, CAFE laws, and maybe higher insurance premiums if there was more HP?

Keep in mind Ford is making its tunes with several variables. One, the tune has to conform to all types of drivers, ranging from 18 yr old kids to 80 yr old grandpa's. Two the tune has to be safe enough for the car to last past the warranty expiration mileage.. third the tune has to perform optimaly in all states/weather conditions. Most aftermarket tunes will build a tune for the weather you live in. And fourth the tune must be able to pass emissions while causing no harm to the emissions equipment installed on the car (I.e. cats, egr (which most tunes turn off), evap, and smog pumps where applicable)

Because more power means more stress on every component... which means a smaller bottom line as they pay out more warranty cash for failures that might never have happened with a more conservative state of tune.

Plus...people expect their cars to last 150,000 - 200,000 miles. A car tuned to its
limit will live a shorter life.

hmmmmm I wondered this. What if you bought a seperate PCM and used that one with your tune on it. Than god forbid anything happens, you just put your original stock pcm back in....... Pretty expensive, but hey it may work and atleast you can mod the hell outta your car

Ford has to make a tune that works in every state under every condition of every season of the year, so yes they have to leave HP on the table.
The OEM tune needs a bunch of breathing room, it already runs hard stock and beats the chubby camaro with less HP.

Because the ECM would give a P1000 code telling the dealer that it hasn't been driven at least 500 miles. (not mileage wise, meaning, self engine/sensor checks, running time etc...) trust me they got it covered.
It's been thought of already, try driving your car 500 miles with a blown motor lol.

Wait a minute... The p1000 only means the codes were cleared or the battery was disconnected. The code does not mean the pcm was flashed. I think it could work :)

Because if they give you all the power the first year, the engine gets old fast. This way they can keep the same engine year to year and tune it differently and say the new one has more power than the outgoing model with a simple recalibration of the tune.

Ok so you bring your car to the dealer with a blown motor and 0 miles on the ECM, how do you think that is going to go? lol

Pcm doesn't count mileage. The ic module does. So he should be clear there...

My concern would be if the flash counter is built into the Pcm or if it is a separate module. If it is a separate module then changing the Pcm won't work. If it is in the Pcm then your good.

It's not all about mileage, the PCM would say it has not completed sensor checks etc... they thought of all this stuff. lol

Right. But that ONLY indicates that the codes were cleared or that the battery was disconnected. That in no way shows that the Pcm was changed... I work on these cars. I have to determine if they have been tuned it not. And I can yell you that if the monitors are not complete in No way does that void the warranty.

Agreed. Because if a car is not running right, most people will try disconnecting the battery to reset everything.

That's what I figure. People expect that a modern engine ought to go 200,000 miles or more without needing an overhaul. A lot of people who own Mustangs are willing to sacrifice some longevity for more fun. Many of us put less than 10,000 miles per year on it, so even if the engine longevity is decreased by 20% (a number I just pulled out of thin air), we'll still have many years of fun before any work needs to be done.

Wait so my plan might work??????????????????? I will go nuts if it does =D

I'll do some research. But sounds good to me ;)

it wont...this topic has been beaten to death....ford got smart and starting in 11 they have the secret genie inside that tells all.

hahaha. Theres a lamp under the dash with the genie in it.

Again... I work on them.. I know the signs of a flash... I think I would know...

Well, now I can blame the genie when the gas pedal hits the floor vigorously instead of saying the devil made me do it....maybe the wife will believe that cuz she always says "sure" when the devil is mentioned.

She hasn't caught on to me having to test the high speed shifting of the tranny each time I drive it so I may be lucky here......;)

A lot of you may not realize that this 5.0 Coyote engine is putting out a lot of power for it's size. 302 Cubic Inch V-8. The 428 Cobra Jet in 1969 I believe was rated at 335 HP. The engine is designed to last like others have said for 150,000+ miles. Stock form it you don't continually beat the sh!t out of it I bet it will. Getting too aggressive tunes and advancing the engine timing more than a aftermarket tune should, will have nasty effects. Can you say cylinder / piston #8 is toast because of detonation???
It is **** fast stock, IMHO!
Regards,
Phil

There's always someone that wants to go a little faster :)

I don't care if you work on them or not, this isn't a 05-10. It's doesnt work, or let me rephrase, it may seem in theory that it would work but it doesn't. It seems they put more time into not letting this happen than other engineering on the car. Not to mention if they even sniff something is array they will void it....then fight ford, they got ish loads of money.

Whatever you say :) you obviously know what is in these cars... Why even bother right? I mean the governments computer secrets are unhackable right? Nope... Guess what, some one found a way around their firewall. There is always a backdoor to any system. There is one for the 2011 and 2012 mustang. Someone just has to dig into the system and figure it out. But then again you know its impossible ;)

Do you even know what tells Ford the Pcm has been tuned??

The PCM changes are not what Ford, or any other manufacturer look at when a warranty claim is challenged. The OBD system, records and stores operating conditions. This data is probably even retrieved and stored somewhere far away from your vehicle. This is how they protect themselves (and other consumers) from costs resulting from disingenuous warranty claims. Magnusson Moss is on Ford's side when you run a vehicle outside of stock operating conditions.
Just my .02

the Pcm is the brains of the obd system. It is the module that stores all that information you are talking about. So if you put a new one in. All that stored info is lost... Ford does not have the ability to retrieve the cars information wirelessly (like onstar).
Again you don't know how these work. I am specializing in the electronic systems on Fords modern cars. I can even tell you what parts are in a Pcm, ic, tcm, rcm (and so on and so forth), modules. Do you know what hs-can, ms-can, and gateway modules are? Ever heard of can-bus? If you don't know what you are talking about don't argue like you do...

Not trying to start anything but its annoying to have ppl that don't understand the system argue with you :D understanding these systems is my JOB lol

Are you a mechanic? You said that you work on these cars and can tell when the computer has been flashed. Do you work with the customer if they are honest with you ; or do you like to be the barer of bad news to deny and void their warranty?

Yes I am a mechanic at a Ford dealer. I try and help the customer when I can. But I can't lie to Ford when they have me send Pcm data to them. They get to see it.

The reason I ask is because some dealers honor warranty work and some do not ( on modded cars). So basically, warranty work from a dealer is total potluck. On other sites and this one, guys that have tunes, headers etc and are getting warranty coverage and some are not. It's a crap shoot and doesn't seem to be quite fair. Some dealers are very customer friendly and some obviously are not.

It's the ppl in the dealer that make it or break it. I try my hardest to help the customer. Small town dealers tend to be more friendly. They are not as monitored by Ford and its easier to hide mods. Big dealers get enough work in that if they deny your warranty and you don't get it fixed there they still have a lot of other cars to work on. Small town dealers don't have as much to work on so they try and get your warranty to go through so they have more to work on. Bottom line is talk to ppl. You would be surprised what talking to the service manager will do.

Ok some may be confused on what I was actually asking, but texastboneking you tell me if this would work. I plan on driving my car for lets say 5k miles before doing any mods that requires a tune. Say once I reach 5k miles or w.e, and I get an intake, tune, and new pcm that I am going to use with my new custom tune, how would ford be able to tell I did that if anytime I bring it in I just put the STOCK ORIGINAL PCM in and put the stock intake back? This way the ORIGINAL STOCK pcm still has all info on it (5k+ miles worth) and nothing will seem out of order.

If you could let us know about that it would be great, cause the extra money for another PCM is nothing if you get to keep your warranty. OOO and btw everyone, I want 10% commission on all PCM's sold if this works lmao jk.

I perfectly understood your question earlier.. in theory this is a flawless way of protecting your warranty. The only issue that I am worried about (and I'm looking into it) is if the flash count is stored on a separate module or if the Pcm is what monitors the flash count. Once I know that answer I can give you a definite answer ;). Give me a couple days to research

Thanks a ton man!!! This will help all of us the 5.0s greatly.

I'm all for modding :D very little on my car is factory ;)

Wish there were more techs like you out there lol. There is a guy at my local dealer who is a service tech and drives a 1990 foxbody with an 04 cobra motor in it. Than the sales manager drives a heavily modded 2008 saleen, and the general manager drives a 2011 5.0 with a boss manifold, full exhaust, and an intake

I believe that modding should be worry free. Kinda like jailbreaking an iPhone or rooting an Android. Just because you install what you want shouldn't void your warranty unless its something huge, like the cylinder 8 issue.. that should have voided the warranty. The tuners were careless with the timing and the knock sensors. So yes that's not Fords fault. But voiding a warranty repair on a cracked exhaust manifold because the "tune" let the exhaust get too hot causing it to crack is just stupid...

UPDATE ON RESEARCH!
ok few small issues I was forgetting...
When a Pcm is bought from ford the Pcm has to be calibrated and the vin installed on the Pcm. Meaning Ford would know your car is supposed to have a new Pcm... So that means that you would have to find a wrecked car with your same Pcm so Ford doesn't know you got your hands one one. Another positive to this is a junkyard Pcm is a lot cheaper than a Ford dealer one.

Also you will have to have a custom tune built because the chances are is that the Pcm you got from that car is probably different from your current Pcm on a few parameters and it might cause some issues on a preloaded tune.

Lastly you will have to install your factory Pcm every time you go in for a state inspection because these vehicles are vin locked and if they plug into the dlc and the computer reads a different vin than what's listed on the car you will not pass..

Still researching :)

I agree with buying one from a wrecked car, but what about the kit from ameican muscle that includes the PCM to throw the 5.0 motor in a different car. If I bought the 5.0 motor with the PCM for my 2010 how would they VIN lock it? Also what if I threw the 5.0 in my 1968 fastback, why would they need to vin lock it?

http://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-c...e-control.html
I mean this is the kit from American muscle. All you would need to use out of the kit is the PCM itself an just use the rest of YOUR factory components. I mean yes it is $1400 but I would rather that than give up my warranty, or like you said just get one from a wrecked car.

EDIT -- will only work on manuals as the pcm is tuned for a manual transmission application

Well like bone is saying, it's really up to the tech and the service department. It pays to befriend your dealership technicians. When I worked for the dealerships, it was up to us to decide. Lots of modded cars that we warrantied. But the real A-holes got nothing from us but voided warranties. Tip your tech for regular service a few times. Those guys really appreciate that and it's a way to get to know those guys. Hell, we used to mod vehicles at the dealer for customers.

But I'm pretty sure when you order this from a.m. they will ask for the vin of the vehicle this is going into. Could be wrong. But Ford is the one that is picky on their vin numbers. A.m. probably don't care. But Ford will vin lock their pcms..

Kinda how it is at our dealership :)

Thing is, you have to have your car key "added" to the new PCM. As far as I know, only the dealer can do that.

Nope.. pats system. Is a separate module ;)

any update on this texas?

Been to busy at work to really check. It's raining today so hopefully we slow down so I can research some.

Ok. So from what I can see this should work with no problems. Anyone want to be a guinea pig?

Ehhh wtf I'll do it lol. Once my car gets some miles on it though, I only have 350 as of today so I was planning on doing this maybe in the spring. It would be GREAT if someone could try this out before hand.

I was also reading on another forum that the only thing that pops up in the PCM is the code "p1000" which only states that the battery was disconnected OR the pcm was reflashed, but its up to the dealer to determine which one it was. Basically if your car is 100% stock and you put the stock tune back you can just say you disconnected the battery to see if the symptoms went away with resetting the battery.

All these sound like logical options but we just need someone to test them........ anyone lol?

The p1000 would clear after about 25 miles if driven properly it's called a obd drive cycle

P1000 does not indicate a flash. So your good :)

so basically you can even use your stock pcm and just tune it back to stock, drive it for a bit and than bring it in for whatever reason???

I read the TSB from ford a few times and it basically states that if you tune the car the p1000 code pops up, but its up to the dealer to determine if it was just a battery reset, or the car was actually tuned. Basically if they see a CAI and headers they will say it was tuned. But if its BONE STOCK and you say o0o yeah I reset the battery to see if it solved the problem, theres nothing wrong with that and they cant say the car was tuned.

Basically theres not a code that pops up in the pcm that says "HEY THIS CAR WAS TUNED BY ......., VOID MY WARRANTY". Its just the p1000 which is the same as resetting the battery correct?

no...

P1000 let's the technician know to check the flash counter.. the flash counter does not set codes so no there is no code to void your warranty. If you tune the Pcm the flash count goes up one. You flash it back to stock and it counts one again. Ford then sees two unauthorized flashes... Get it?

But now that cant just be like you reset the battery twice? Like you "reset the battery" when you tuned it and you "reset the battery" when you put it back to stock?

Listen I'm all down for buying a second PCM, but if I can get "away with it" on my stock pcm I would much rather do that. Also how much does a second PCM cost through ford and will I be able to order one for an auto trans? I can just give them the VIN to my fox body and say I am throwing the 5.0 and auto trans in it.

Reseting the battery doesn't count as a flash.
So no that can't work. The only thing that counts as a flash is an actual flash. Nothing else. And I'm not sure on the cost of a Pcm. I can find out tomorrow.

Alright I gotcha now. and the flash counter is in the PCM itself?

Also yes if you can find out the cost of a PCM that would be great. And I can order one that is for an auto trans right?

EDIT -- Check this out!!! Can I (or anyone else) just order the PCM of their code and just use that? Its only $495 and thats great!!!
http://www.partswebsite.com/fordonli...n=3&type=parts

(ECM'S are in the middle of the page)

Could not find info on where the flash counter is actually located. From what I can tell its in the Pcm..
Keep in mind the Pcm will need to be programmed with your vin number to pass state inspections.
And yes they can tune it for automatic transmissions. :)

Well I was planning on using the stock pcm and all stock components for inspection, so do they still need a vin number? and can I just give them the vin to my foxbody and say I'm doing the coyote conversion with the auto trans?

And basically what else do I have to do once I order that PCM from ford online parts? Does it come programmed, or do I need to take it to a dealer?

Your current gt vin has all the info you need. Send it too me in a pm and I can tell you all the things to tell your dealer so it comes programmed just like your current Pcm.

If you put the stock Pcm back in for inspection you have nothing to worry about.

LOL isn't this fraud? :doh:

ANNNND lol? Jim @ JDM Engineering said he might have a "plan" since I am local, so I will see how that works out.

Texas I appreciate all your help and info, and I am going to ask JDM if I can buy a blank PCM from ford and just have them custom tune the car with their tune and see if it would work the same like we planned. If not I know a few people at my local dealer, so maybe I can pull a few strings.