OAC_Sparky

This. Sad but true.

hawkeye18

Lulz, "vast changes". How's things in Ford financial?

Overboost

If you do this after finding out your dealer won't cover your mods, then you deserve to have a broken car. The MM act isn't a "golden ticket" to mod. It just explains what they can and can't do with most scenarios.

yugoboss

A friend of mine work is the service manager for a gm dealer, at there dealership its the diesel trucks for them they are checking, cause of the high horsepower, torque they are pushing. After seeing to many tranny, transfer cases blown up, they are checking to see if tuners have been installed.

Ronn

I was looking at a 2009 Shelby conv at the Ford dealer. The car was for sale, but with no warranty. The car belonged to the dealerships owner, and he had a tune put into it. Now if the service manager would void his warrany, he would void mine in a minute! I really have to wonder if Ford controls the service managers at dealerships? Ronn

Overboost

True, but there are really so many variables regarding whether or not you'll get voided to have one canned answer for it.

If you don't understand the risks in modding a vehicle, then leave it stock and don't ever change. If you are prepared to handle the responsibility of something that might fail, then enjoy!

alrox

There are 100's of variables changed in an aftermarket tune, all of them have different values between different tune makers. Ford can't account for all of these variables and expect their hardware to operate the same way.

Ford fulfills their burden of proof required by the Magnusson-Moss act by proving the computer code has been changed in the past or has been altered from Ford's programming.

Untrue. They are very specific about any aftermarket tune voiding your powertrain warranty upon a powertrain warranty claim. This does not to apply to your general new car limited warranty, only the powertrain warranty.

For instance, if your window motor breaks and your car has a tune, your new car warranty still applies and Ford pays the bill to repair your window motor.

The Ford service centers that do not check for tunes and do not void powertrain warranties when a powertrain warranty claim is made and a tune is present are really defrauding Ford. Ford pays the bill for any parts as well as pays the dealership to repair the problem. The money goes into the dealerships pocket unrightfully.

Some dealers may get away with small powertrain items (alternator for instance), but things like clutch, transmission and engine warranty claims will be reviewed by the book by an outside Ford representative and be checked correctly. Do not expect to get a free engine because you are buddies with the local service manager.

Black-Falcon

I'm just going to chime in here for a quick minute.

Please, please, PLEASE stop pretending like you know a lot about tuning or ECUs. Ford can VERY easily account for all of those changes. All they would have to have is a data dump from the ECU and write a small program (or even import the data into the software that they used to make the initial tune for the engine) and compare them from there.

Ford can most definitely tell if there has been a reflash on the ECU. This is achieved by utilizing a checksum (calculated number) on the ECU. If the checksum does not match the source checksum...bingo, reflash detected.

As far as their hardware operating in the same way. So long as the new set of parameters follows the same format as Ford's tune, their ECU will act exactly the way it's supposed to...

"Defraud" this, and "Defraud" that... I can clearly see that you are a person who sees in black and white, with not a lick of gray in your life. Must be boring.

I do not disagree that putting a tune on your vehicle may void your powertrain warranty, but there is such a thing as showing compassion for your customer and building customer appreciation. Can you imagine the ROI a $4,000 engine can generate if the customer is genuinely appreciateive about a service tech being lenient? Think about that...

I just wanted to clear up these little discrepancies about the ECUs and how tunes work.

Overboost

I'm referring to the dealer variable. Some dealers don't mind, other think its the devil. The second half of your argument just reiterated what I mentioned, as well as what the MM act clearly defines.

alrox

But I like pretending. I agree with everything you said. What you may have thought and where I was not specific enough, was that Ford does not need to account for how the 100's of variables that changed interact with each other in order to deny a powertrain warranty claim.

An example would be a customer comes in with a hole in his engine block. The tune may have allowed a higher than stock redline RPM, and some tuners may say 'yeah you can spin it to 7500 no problem' and the hole in the block may have occurred under the stock redline, but Ford doesn't care what that tuned value is as long as it's not Ford programming.

Ford simply has to prove it was changed at all.

Overboost

Absolutely right about the checksum, but on the other hand, the idle mapping and fuel trims will adjust over time. If you flash back to stock, then disconnect your battery, and drive it a bit, the dealer isn't going to be able to see that it was flashed prior. They'd have to prove it was modified, instead of only being able to prove that the battery was removed/disconnected.

Black-Falcon

Exactly, hence my checksum explanation.


Now, to my knowledge, the checksum changes every time the ECU is flashed. It doesn't matter if you're putting the stock map, your stock map, bama, steeda, etc on it. The checksum will change every time. That's why I'm sure if Ford ever has to do a reflash for warranty work they document the new checksum.

OAC_Sparky

Ok, I HAVE had an engine replaced under warranty. Who wants to hear what really happens?

alrox

Ford rarely has the chance to see a reflashed back to stock car in for a warranty claim. They almost always fail with the modifications in place.

The situation you describe is:

1. Someone with light modifications spends hundreds of dollars to tune their car or someone with heavy modifications spends thousands of dollars to add parts and tune their car.

2. They run the car with those modifications and then put everything back to stock at some point, including the tune. The hundreds of dollars spent on the tune only car is wasted since it is not in use anymore. The thousands of dollars spent on the heavy modifications can be sold off for a fraction of the original price, and the tune money is wasted as well. The de-modifying process is rarely done by Ford either.

3. The car is back to stock now and driven for a period of time before the engine fails. This situation will most likely happen to the 2nd/3rd owner of the car who had no knowledge of the modifications. The current owner then has no recourse against anyone and is burned for the price of a new engine.

This is why many knowledable car buyers know what to look for and stay away from previously modified cars because of the unknown and shady history.

VirginiaDrifter

I do, I do!!!

Overboost

Again, you've looked at it from a very narrow mindset.

There are plenty of documented cases of people who remove parts and go to the dealer for service. To me, that's picking your battles. No harm there. I see plenty of people who pull parts that are totally UNRELATED to the reason for the dealer visit.

You talk about those who remove parts and sell the car and mods that are now useless, you are sadly mistaken. You might walk out with 50-60% of the sticker prices on most parts in good shape.

People buying a used car need to know the risks. With things like carfax, its easy to see if major work is done. People need to do their homework before buying a performance car used.

Your post simply follows the "worst case scenario" and "sky is falling" mentality.

ksguy73

I think it definitely depends on the particular dealership you're dealing with. My local Ford Racing authorized dealer keeps telling me a FRPP tune will absolutely not void my 100K warranty. This would be fine if I didn't stand the chance of the military moving anywhere tomorrow and getting a mod unfriendly dealer. I have read the FRPP warranty many times and this one line (in bold) is what has kept me from tuning.

"are warranted for factory-supplied material or workmanship, when installed by an authorized Ford Dealer or Shelby Automotive, Inc, beginning upon dealer installation and registration of the part(s) with Ford Racing for the balance of 3 years or 36,000 miles / 60,000 kilometres, whichever occurs first, from the manufacturer's New Vehicle Limited Warranty start date. This Limited Warranty replaces the existing manufacturer's New Vehicle Limited Warranty for engine, driveline and suspension parts when a concern is triggered by a warranted Ford Racing part."

That, to me, says tough luck after 36K. I would love a tune simply for the improved throttle response. The mushy throttle is my only complaint about the car. I'm too chicken to chance my warranty for this though. However, once my payments are done it's game on!!!

alrox

I believe I look at it from the majority aspect. Most people who get tunes and make a powertrain warranty claim will not have it honored.


Your average person would say that's a major loss and a major hassle to even find a person who is willing to pay 60% of the new part price.

Carfax will very rarely show major non insurance work. The oasis report from Ford will show what you're talking about only if major repairs were done at a Ford dealer. Only a small majority of people know about this report and you'll only get it at a used Ford dealership. If all this work was done by aftermarket tuner shops you will have no clue about major work unless the receipts are in the car.

I believe the scenarios I describe accurately describe the majority of modded used cars, which happen to be a very small minority of used cars overall. Internet forums like this draw in the majority of these minority cases, misleading people to believe that the minority is actually the majority.

alrox

The FRPP power upgrade package, part # M-FR1-MGTB or M-9603-MGTB, installed by an authorized FRPP dealer is the best way to go if concerned about a warranty.

Logic will say that's it's best to get the parts installed early in the car's life. Let's say you do have a slightly bad engine from the factory. You get the tune on day #1 and it dies within 3 years/36,000 mile warranty. You're covered no matter what.

On the other hand, say you have a slightly bad engine from the factory, but it holds together stock for 3 years/36,000 miles and then you get tuned after the warranty expires. Right after the tune, your engine fails. You just lost thousands of dollars.

OAC_Sparky

2005 Focus ST 2.3L 151hp/155tq, Engine Mods: Steeda Short Ram intake, Poly mounts.

Maintained religiously since new, since 6000mi used full synthetic changed every 4000 miles. At 79,000mi (still under extended warranty) it developed a mild tapping (sounded like a lifter). Since it was under ESP took it in and they felt it was a rod bearing starting to go.

The first thing they did was warn me that IF I wanted them to investigate further that IN THE EVENT that the failure was from 1) oil deprevation not related to an oil pump failure or 2) from any modification/tune that I would reimburse them for the cost of teardown and (if I chose to go ahead with repairs) the repairs.

I gave the go ahead, they made the appointement for the Ford warranty adjuster to come out. Now, like I said I change my oil wth synthetic -- 90% of the time I get my dealer to do it using synthetic I supply (I get it when it's on sale) and they charge me only $20 for labour and a filter. So the dealership had records of all my oil changes except a few. That was because a few times was leaing for a sudden trip and couldn't get it into a busy dealership so I did it myself, using the same synthetic.

So first thing they asked for was for the oil change records. I said the dealer did them except a few. The said they saw the changes at 60k, 68k, 72k, 76k. What they wanted to know was: where was the one at 64k? I'm like, "whaaaaaat?" Oh yeah, they wanted proof. Luckily, I came up with the receipt for the filter I had jammed into my glovebox 7 months previous.

They did check for a tune (because the tech mentioned the CAI and said "I thought you needed a tune with those" and was surprised it was still the stock tune).

They ripped the bottom end open, found the source of the problem -- a small nick on the rod journal. Nothing that I could have possibly done. It was likely there when it was assembled. I asked to come in and see it for myself (I used to work assembling engines in Windsor so I'm very familiar) The rest of the engine was spotless inside; definitely not a victim of neglect.

The good news, I got a new engine for the $100 deductible.

So the lesson learned -- be careful and document everything -- even your oil changes. They go in looking for reasonable cause to deny the claim.