Not that far off, you say ! Well lets look at the numbers:

Camaro sales for 2001 were - 35,453 units

Firebird sales for 2001 were - 25,743 units

Combined sales total - 61, 196 units



Mustang sales for 2001 were - 169,198.00 units


Despite GM's combined effort..The Mustang alone, still outsold both the Camaro and the Firebird..by well over a 2-1 sales margin..


Therefore, I totally agree with bt4's post..

That being said ! it's pretty safe to assume..The Mustang did indeed, contribute to the Camaro's demise..

Once again this is only an opinion...but I think the 4th Gen F-Bodies biggest fault was they were too compromised. Remember the stupid suitcase sized bump on the passenger side floor, The chopped roof that made entering and exiting the thing difficult, priced at thousands more than the Mustang. Truth be told the GT was suppost to compete against the Z28 while the Cobra took on the SS, The Z28 cost just as much as the Cobra nevermind the SS! I'm not bashing GM or the Camaro as a Ford guy I must admit GM is a better "high performance company than Ford at this day and age. Think about it what else do we have besides the Mustang? Though some have expressed distaste for the new camaro all i can say is this... The car will be successful most of us on this post have a Ford bias. Imagine being a Chevy fan seeing the return of a legendary vehical like the Camaro coming back.kinda like us in 05'

With GM's track record ! I highly doubt that..especially if the base V-6 is to priced at 22,000.00..Just imagine what the Z-28, and SS models are going bring in..

Do you really believe that the average Joe, will be able to afford one..

By the time you add in.. the LS-1, IRS along with electronic stability control, TCS and cylinder deactivation, if offered..You'll be lucky if MSRP is around $38.00.00, and that's being generous.


Then once you figure in the stealership's ADM..You'll then be looking at well over $40,000.00 +

No matter how you look at it...This car won't be successful in keeping up with the Mustang...

Especially when you can still buy a fully loaded GT, for well under $35,000.00

i like the Cougar idea...

but what about remaking a Capri 5.0?

http://www.foureyedpride.com/caprirs...ics/small6.jpg

Hey, I said "towards" the end guys. Everybody jumped on 2001, How about 2002, How about 1999. Who cares, bottom line is GM didn't give a flyin cow patty about the last generation of the F-cars and that had lots to do with their demise. Before every restyling GM tried to kill them off, that's at least 4 times! They wanted to kill them off in 74, 82, 92 and 2000 as well. You don't have a fighting chance without backup.

If Ford suddenly decided they didn't give a hoot about Mustangs and wanted to kill them (and they ****ed near did at least twice if you'll remember) The car would suffer the same fate and we'd all be trying to hop up our Fusions or something.

One of the big differences between Ford and GM is that Ford knows its market and tries to please it. GM tries to please it's shareholders. That's the difference between short term and long term thinking right there. Take care of your customer and you've got a customer for life, a pretty stable business model. Chase around the fad of the day and Blitz the market with stuff nobody wants maybe you'll be lucky to break even in the off chance that one of your products actually strikes a chord.

If anything, I'm supporting the point about having a corporate cousin that's too close, like a Cougar that was just a rebadged Mustang with no real differentiation.

Yeah, I dig Camaro's, owned about 5 of them. One of those cars you always make sure to carry tools in just in case. But hey, I bought a Mustang and GM didn't have squat that I even wanted to test drive let alone buy. I picked it, I beat the hell out of dealer to buy it and I'm having more fun in it than I've ever had in anything I've ever owned before (Except for maybe my 79 Z28 but the tranny blew up in it so maybe not :eyebrow: )

So everyone put away their sales figures :uzi:
Everybody's right, nobody's wrong, It's a happy place here...:bunny:

.............next

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. I remember talking to another Mustang guy years ago and commented about how the Capri was a corporate cousin like Firebirds were to Camaros. I though the guy was gonna put my lights out. I mean to me the lineage is obvious. The only real difference I saw other than the front end treatment and Mercury badging was the rear fastback window that most of them seemed to have. I realy like the front end on the one pictured here.

You don't see many of them but I heard somewhere that they were popular in Europe for awhile. I think it might be a bit too close a cousin to bring out again though.

:banana:

'Scuse my ingorance guys, but what's the story with the Capri 5.0? In Europe, the Capri was, effectively, the Mustangs cousin, developed by Ford of Europe following the massive success of the Mustang and sales started in '69.

This, to me, is a Capri. Production ended in '87 and it was "replaced" with the FWD Probe, then the FWD Cougar :shame:
http://www.fordcapri.sk/0008.jpg

I know you guys got an "Americanised" version of this car, badged as a Mercury, right? But what's the story with the 5.0 above? Was that a rebadged Cougar? We never saw a "Europeanised" version of that car.

Sorry for the slight thread diversion!

You are probably right in that GM cared less about keeping the name alive than Ford would about the Mustang. Afterall GM has the Corvette (one of the few production cars with as long and fabled heritage as the Mustang) to carry the performance banner in lieu of the Camaro. Without the Mustang, Ford's choices boil down to slim and none.

I picked 2001 since it was toward the end of the F-body production, but even if you pick 1999, or 2002 the results are very similar. There were times when the numbers were much closer, but "toward the end" was not one of those times. Finding the sales history for earlier years is problematic, but Blue Oval News and GM.Media.com make it relatively simple to find recent years.


Year Mustang Camaro Firebird

2002 138,356 28,404 20,613

2001 169,198 35,453 25,743

2000 173,676 42,131 31,013

1999 166,915 40,726 33,850

With those kinds of numbers, whether GM gave a "cow patty" for the F-bodies or not, it is understandable why they would want to kill them off. At those numbers, they weren't profitable. JMO, and I could be wrong, but I think if Camaro had sold in numbers close to the Mustang's GM would not have pulled the plug. They still had a union contract and obligations at the St. Therese plant until 2008. If the product was showing a slim margin or even just breaking even, GM would have continued to make the Camaro.

The bottom line is--well the bottom line. Over the last 4 years of production the Camaro averaged 36,678 units per year. Over those same 4 years Ford sold an average of 162,036 Mustangs. Those sales figures are why Ford continued to market Mustangs. That kind of sales figure (162,036) is why GM is bringing back a new Camaro; GM wants a slice of that pie.

Yes, the European Ford Capri was a popular car, Zakspeed built some racing models in the '70's that were real screamers. Ford imported the European Capri and marketed it through Mercury (starting in 1970, I think). Though it didn't have a brand name it was called a "Mercury" Capri. Ford stopped importing the car in 1977. In Europe the Capri continued on until the mid '80's.

In 1979, Mercury re-introduced the Capri, which was essentially a re-badged Mustang. Different fenders, grill, and rear fascia. It wasn't exported. I seem to remember a McLaren version of the Capri one year, though I can't remember what year that was.

[quote=m05fastbackGT;1041449]Phil.. no offense towards you personally, however Lou wasn't bashing the Corvette, in the sense of it being an inferior car ! He just doesn't like it from a styling standpoint when compared to the 1st generation Vette's, Camaro's, and GTO's from the 1960's. And I happen to agree with him.

Although there's no denying the current Z06, is a far superior car technology wise.. But from a styling standpoint, it just doesn't capture the look of the 63-67 Stingray whatsoever. But then again, I really didn't care much for them, after the 1978 model anyhow. But that's just my opinion.

However there's also no denying, that Ford really hit the mark with the current S-197 Mustang, in which all it takes.. is just one look. And it re-captures the look of those 1st generation, 65-68 fastbacks instantly.

As for superiority is concerned ! well the 2004 GTO, was also superior in everyway over it's predecessors. But from a styling point of view..the car had no appeal whatsoever, and as a direct result.. lived a very short lifespan.

And speaking of short lifespans..The upcoming 2010 Camaro, will also meet a similar fate, if the current concept design, remains exactly the same..

That being said, as a die hard Ford guy.. I don't care if the GT500 is outmatched by the Z06 Corvette or not..I'd still take the GT500 anyday hands down..Why ? because I'm also a loyal die hard Ford Guy.

And let's also not forget, the Z06 also has a distinct weight advantage over the GT500 as well..[quote\]

and a distinct price advantage too...... they have 25k ADM as well. saw one at a local track nite brand new with a stripe package sticker was 101,000!

Once again I think only time will tell on this one but I have a feeling the Camaro is gonna be much more popular than you guys think. There are numerous threads on the web all about the 09' Camaro.kinda like how this site was with the 05' model introduction. The lack of marketing was a huge blunder on GM's part with the 4th gen. Plus the restyle for 98' was dull. While the 99' Mustang changed every body panel the GMs only got a new front end. Simple product placement like the Transformers movie are putting the Camaro in the spotlight, a great move by GM. Though I agree the car will never top the Mustang in sales it will have a market. Proof of this is the feedback GM has gotten on it. I personally like it, others maybe not. Chevy dealers already have deposits on these cars with the consumer knowing next to nothing about the car. It reminds me of the 5th gen Mustang just before it's launch. I'm happy to see these cars come back now Ford has a reason to improve the Mustang. I love healthy compeition! Maybe the next bodystyle Mustang will do a better job with small performance tweaks every 2 or 3 years instead of waiting 4-5 yrs like in 94-98, 99-04, 05-08. With a new Camaro maybe we will see a 5-10HP increase every couple years anyways just my two cents

What in the world is an AAR Cougar?

Maybe you're thinking of the AAR Cuda.

I'm referring to sales years not model years.
Technically the S197 Mustang has entered its 4th year for both sales and models.

The 2005 Mustang went on sale around Sept 28, 2004, so we are presently in the 37th month of S197 sales, or just starting the 4th sales year.

The sales #s Ford publishes do not distinguish model years.
That is the Sept 07 and Oct 07 Mustang sales #s Ford publishes includes both 2007 and 2008 model year Mustangs. It could even include 2006 model year cars if dealers still have them left aroudn, which believe it or not some dealers do.

In any case exactly which model year Mustang was sold last month really doesn't matter as we're talking about S197 models, unless there are dealers out there who still have some brand new SN95 Mustangs still sittin gon their lots. :eek:

This is also one of your posts, from another thread.. Which appears to contradict the other..So which post is accurate ?

I can't seem to tell, from one to the other :dunno:



Once again..I believe that V10 hit the mark

And while were at it..Think about this ! at present, what else does GM have besides the Corvette ? You claim to be a die hard Ford Guy ! then quit playing both sides of the fence..Although this may be your thread ! were're all getting way off topic here, as were supposed to be discussing the Cougar, and not the Camaro concept..:banghead:

I do agree with you and i'm sorry for the controdiction, not my best way of expressing myself. I'll try to clarify this the best I can. I don't think the Camaro will ever be as successful as the 05' Mustang in production for reasons like economy, price, a possible fade in muscle car craze..But... I do feel the car will fill a nitch for a decent market segment. Unlike the 04 GTO, the car is well liked by enthusiasts as far as looks are concerned (GM and unbiast consumers agree) Two, though the car will be more expensive than the Mustang but unlike the 4th gen cars will be far better designed and will still be considered a bargain if they can pull off a 400-500HP car for under $40,000 (very possible). With GMs global platform sharing profit does'nt need to be sky high to keep it in production. Though the car is unattainible to many it would still be considered a bargain, like the GT500 if it can be had at MSRP. I think what we will see is unlike the Mustang most camaro buyers will be interested in the high price V8 models. I agree V6 sales will be slow but the major disagrement I have is that you guys think the car will fail because of it's looks! You may or may not like the car but it is being well received by the public overall. I feel the first 2 yrs of production will be huge then tail off consideribly, but with platform sharing the Camaro can survive at lower production volume. As far as being a die hard Ford guy, your right i'm at a crossroads I think the Ford lineup pretty much sucks right now with the exception of the Mustang and F-150. GM and Mopar are far better at giving the consumer performance options in all segments. Though the SS Cobalt is not my cup of tea I admire GM for taking a chance, Chysler's SRT program is awesome pretty much everything in their lineup has a performance Model. Presently Ford has the GT500 which in my opinion was ruined by the whole Shelby monkier if not for the Shelby name how much more attainible would the GT500 be. I mean c'mon guys Shelby had very little to do with the car's development to have his name all over the car. I've owned Fords my entire life and i'm looking to buy a sport sedan or even a peppy compact and after visiting dealerships of all makes and models i'm disapointed that I can't buy a Ford vehical I want
(The Fusion is close but needs more power) and will have to buy a competitor's car.

Ok now i promise I will only talk about the cougar in this thread, just a thought I haerd Ford is doing the same as GM with felxible platform sharing in the near future, if thats the case how much real risk is involved in a mercury Cougar? What is the number needed to keep the Cougar in production 30,000? I think that Mercury should take a risk with this one. The Charger is basically a rebodied Chysler 300 and overall I think it turned out to be a pretty successful car in its own right.

Wasn't Ford supposed to offer an SVT version, of the Focus ZX-3 or similar performance package ?

As for the Shelby GT500 and Shelby GT ! I couldn't agree more..In which all your really paying for.. is the Shelby nameplate.

And as far as I'm concerned..they can sit in the stealership showrooms, until they rot.. for all I care lol.

It be far better and much cheaper, to just the purchase the very same FRPP performance, and handling packs from Ford Racing..And clone your very own Shelby GT :dunno:

As for the Camaro, and this will be the last time I bring it up..it won't be the looks that kill it..It will be the pricing

If Mercury on the other hand, won't consider resurrecting the Cougar !

Perhaps it may consider bringing the Capri back, only similar to the Messenger concept..

This way, the Capri would have it's own identity/platform, and not have to compeat with the Mustang at all..

Seems to me, this would be a win/win situation for both Ford and Mercury:dunno:

Yeah, I think you're right. Although I could've sworn I saw somebody do one back in an old Car Craft magazine. Probably a one-off thing.
:banana: