The 'ring' & the 5.0
8/11/10, 11:31 AM
#1
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The 'ring' & the 5.0
What will it take to get the 5.0 to run at Nürburgring? It's widely known as one of the toughest but respectable tracks in the world.
I know Ford did it with the Focus RS last year around this time and it ran 8:26... I'd love to see them do this with the 5.0 (as well as BOSS and GT500... But namely the 5.0...) I'm saying this only because we're now putting it in M3 Performance category- which the most recent E92 ran an 8:05. Everyone chimes in about the 5.0 and it's track ready stance. So Ford should put it to the ultimate test.
I'm thinking with a ring-ready driver... times at 8:15 give or take 3-5 seconds... Which would still put it in some great company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times
Anyone else want to see the 5.0 run this? Or am I over reaching?
I know Ford did it with the Focus RS last year around this time and it ran 8:26... I'd love to see them do this with the 5.0 (as well as BOSS and GT500... But namely the 5.0...) I'm saying this only because we're now putting it in M3 Performance category- which the most recent E92 ran an 8:05. Everyone chimes in about the 5.0 and it's track ready stance. So Ford should put it to the ultimate test.
I'm thinking with a ring-ready driver... times at 8:15 give or take 3-5 seconds... Which would still put it in some great company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times
Anyone else want to see the 5.0 run this? Or am I over reaching?
8/11/10, 11:39 AM
#3
MOTM Committee Member
I'll quote my post from the last 'Ring" topic
The problem with running it on the 'Ring' is this:
There are NO STANDARDS and no sanctioning body to verify the claims.
Manufacturers say this car ran xx:xx around the ring or that car ran xx:xx, but at the end of the day we don't know whats been done to these cars. Sometimes they put R compound tires on there, they change the gearing, add pro drivers, etc. Anyone who remembers the war between the Porshe and Nissan (911 and GT-R) knows what I'm talking about.
Until there is an unbiased organization to validate the times and standardize the "rules" for the ring, all it is is one giant pissing match with data that cannot be validated or compared
It'd be cool to see yes, but could we rely on the numbers?....not so much
There are NO STANDARDS and no sanctioning body to verify the claims.
Manufacturers say this car ran xx:xx around the ring or that car ran xx:xx, but at the end of the day we don't know whats been done to these cars. Sometimes they put R compound tires on there, they change the gearing, add pro drivers, etc. Anyone who remembers the war between the Porshe and Nissan (911 and GT-R) knows what I'm talking about.
Until there is an unbiased organization to validate the times and standardize the "rules" for the ring, all it is is one giant pissing match with data that cannot be validated or compared
It'd be cool to see yes, but could we rely on the numbers?....not so much
8/11/10, 12:02 PM
#4
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Not a whole lot different than 1/4 mile times and dyno charts 
I think it'd be awesome to see the video of a Brembo 5.0 on the ring. Regardless of time, it's a good test of the car, especially the live axle which will be seriously tested with all the elevation changes and off-camber turns on the ring.
I think it'd be awesome to see the video of a Brembo 5.0 on the ring. Regardless of time, it's a good test of the car, especially the live axle which will be seriously tested with all the elevation changes and off-camber turns on the ring.
8/11/10, 12:19 PM
#6
MOTM Committee Member
Yes, but the major difference is with 1/4 mi times we have hundreds of data points to look at so its easy to tell if someone is BS'ing. With 'Ring' times, there will only be one time we are given and everyone will take it as gospel.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool to see, but the time wouldn't tell us anything
This.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool to see, but the time wouldn't tell us anything
This.
8/11/10, 12:22 PM
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That's such a typical argument to it tho... and the truth is those times are seen as well representation.
Sport Auto has conducted like 90% of the tests. The others being MT, EVO mag, and a few other video confirmed tests. Rarely is it just "manufacturer's claim" - and when it is thats the only time you hear of discrepancy. In 2005 Sport Auto started using the rules that are governed to Hockenheimring. And with that there are 33 instance that are reported to judge a cars performance on various points during the lap: speeds, braking deceleration and lateral g-forces, among a few others. Sport Auto has been big on keeping a car in stock format...
And it's not liek the GT-R and 911 weren't reran in stock ... the Nissan GT-R ran 2.33 seconds faster with the R-compound tires. Same thing with the 911, it ran 1.98 seconds faster with them. So they did go back and run it with stock tires.
On top of that, Ford wont be going in at like 1am on a foggy night with 2 people, and then say they ran a 7:42. In the age of the Media it's documented and 95% have a camera on board. It's well representative of what the car can do.
Yes there were maybe 2 disputes over R compounds in 10 years. And with the CTSV there was talk about why it was using a different seat...
But seriously... These numbers hold up. And when people see the number it throws out, it would do good for Ford.
Sport Auto has conducted like 90% of the tests. The others being MT, EVO mag, and a few other video confirmed tests. Rarely is it just "manufacturer's claim" - and when it is thats the only time you hear of discrepancy. In 2005 Sport Auto started using the rules that are governed to Hockenheimring. And with that there are 33 instance that are reported to judge a cars performance on various points during the lap: speeds, braking deceleration and lateral g-forces, among a few others. Sport Auto has been big on keeping a car in stock format...
And it's not liek the GT-R and 911 weren't reran in stock ... the Nissan GT-R ran 2.33 seconds faster with the R-compound tires. Same thing with the 911, it ran 1.98 seconds faster with them. So they did go back and run it with stock tires.
On top of that, Ford wont be going in at like 1am on a foggy night with 2 people, and then say they ran a 7:42. In the age of the Media it's documented and 95% have a camera on board. It's well representative of what the car can do.
Yes there were maybe 2 disputes over R compounds in 10 years. And with the CTSV there was talk about why it was using a different seat...
But seriously... These numbers hold up. And when people see the number it throws out, it would do good for Ford.
Last edited by 2010MustangGT; 8/11/10 at 12:25 PM. Reason: worded it odd.
8/11/10, 12:33 PM
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Ring Help
OK, I can help with this one. Someone just send me a new 5.0 and i'll take her there, I live just three hours away. Any takers
Oh make it Blaze Yellow
Oh make it Blaze Yellow
8/11/10, 01:25 PM
#11
Shelby GT350 Member
I'm still up for it. As valid or invalid as it may be, it would just plain kick a** to see it happen. I'd like to see all models from V6, V6PP, GT, GT Brembo, GT500, GT500 SVTPP. Though I'd live with GT Brembo and GT500 SVTPP. I would just like to see the results and the overall thoughts on how the car performed. GM may be making "German Tuned" Cars but this is still a very North American vehicle. On foreign soil doing the dirty work.
No one really makes a fuss about Laguna Seca so the ring it is!
No one really makes a fuss about Laguna Seca so the ring it is!
8/11/10, 02:12 PM
#15
MOTM Committee Member
I'll say it again, I'm not against the Stang going to the ring. But just as a cool factor thing, not as a manufacturer pissing match so fanboys can say "ZOMgee the 5.0 ran a xx:xx round the ring!"
Maybe its the scientist in me, but I don't find any relevance in the data we get from ring times. They never say if it was a rolling start, if the gear ratios were changed to suit the track, etc etc. Plus all they release is the best time. What about the average times it ran that day? The best time could easily be an outlier
8/11/10, 03:09 PM
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What's wrong with it being a typical argument? Its true.
I'll say it again, I'm not against the Stang going to the ring. But just as a cool factor thing, not as a manufacturer pissing match so fanboys can say "ZOMgee the 5.0 ran a xx:xx round the ring!"
Maybe its the scientist in me, but I don't find any relevance in the data we get from ring times. They never say if it was a rolling start, if the gear ratios were changed to suit the track, etc etc. Plus all they release is the best time. What about the average times it ran that day? The best time could easily be an outlier
I'll say it again, I'm not against the Stang going to the ring. But just as a cool factor thing, not as a manufacturer pissing match so fanboys can say "ZOMgee the 5.0 ran a xx:xx round the ring!"
Maybe its the scientist in me, but I don't find any relevance in the data we get from ring times. They never say if it was a rolling start, if the gear ratios were changed to suit the track, etc etc. Plus all they release is the best time. What about the average times it ran that day? The best time could easily be an outlier
There's information out there man, work the google machine.
As in my earlier post the time trials are all listed and video confirmed. Sport Auto, has an overwhelming majority in all the top cars that see the trial runs. The others are by legit sources as well, MT, EVO, or confirmed by Video. It's not coming from independents or the private sector. And it's pretty well known that they come in hot running full throttle- as it isn't NASCAR and start from a stop. :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocm0tySUYGM.
And how can the best time be an outliner? An expert driver that knows the course and running ***** out doesn't have outliners. Take that Dodge Viper ACR, it ran something like a 7:23.45, A 7:22.78 and finally a 7:22.10... All of the tested vehicles run a pretty stable time.
The science is:
It's the mot difficult driving course in the world.
The 'stang is supposed to be track ready.
So...
That's all there is to it.
Last edited by 2010MustangGT; 8/11/10 at 03:15 PM. Reason: youtube
8/11/10, 03:39 PM
#17
MOTM Committee Member
There's information out there man, work the google machine.
As in my earlier post the time trials are all listed and video confirmed. Sport Auto, has an overwhelming majority in all the top cars that see the trial runs. The others are by legit sources as well, MT, EVO, or confirmed by Video. It's not coming from independents or the private sector. And it's pretty well known that they come in hot running full throttle- as it isn't NASCAR and start from a stop. :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocm0tySUYGM.
And how can the best time be an outliner? An expert driver that knows the course and running ***** out doesn't have outliners. Take that Dodge Viper ACR, it ran something like a 7:23.45, A 7:22.78 and finally a 7:22.10... All of the tested vehicles run a pretty stable time.
The science is:
It's the mot difficult driving course in the world.
The 'stang is supposed to be track ready.
So...
That's all there is to it.
As in my earlier post the time trials are all listed and video confirmed. Sport Auto, has an overwhelming majority in all the top cars that see the trial runs. The others are by legit sources as well, MT, EVO, or confirmed by Video. It's not coming from independents or the private sector. And it's pretty well known that they come in hot running full throttle- as it isn't NASCAR and start from a stop. :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocm0tySUYGM.
And how can the best time be an outliner? An expert driver that knows the course and running ***** out doesn't have outliners. Take that Dodge Viper ACR, it ran something like a 7:23.45, A 7:22.78 and finally a 7:22.10... All of the tested vehicles run a pretty stable time.
The science is:
It's the mot difficult driving course in the world.
The 'stang is supposed to be track ready.
So...
That's all there is to it.
And the best time could easily be outlier, its just the nature of data. Their could have been one run with perfect track conditions while the other runs had subpar conditions. To analyze the car's potential you'd have to study ALL the runs, not just the best one. We have no idea of the variance of these times. X company just makes a press release and a youtube video saying their car ran xx:xx time. Whoopty-do. I could do that too, and easily change the springs, camber, shift points etc to suit the 'ring best. No one would ever know.
8/11/10, 06:41 PM
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Come on, you clearly aren't up to date on what's taking palce. (You showed during the, 'if they start on a roll' statement). I mean look at the top 15-20 cars, which of them seem out of place to you? So, the Enzo adjusted it's camber plates, the MC12 lowered it's suspension, the ZR1 swapped gears, Zonda used nitrous and the R8 was stripped of the interior. Right? Clearly.
And yes, I know... Whoopty-do, indeed. All the armchair racers in this world that are on a play station can also turn into an apex while going 150mph+, knowing full well if they were to go 3mph faster they'd lose center and flip into a tree and be infused to the metal in a blazing hunk of devastation. Everyone can do it.
"It is widely considered the toughest, most dangerous and most demanding purpose-built racing circuit in the world." So, adjusting the track ready car to perform better in one instance on the course would mean fouling up in another... These cars are built around this. If anything the best idea would be to put on the Rcompounds. Which some did- That made performance improve ~2 seconds, as they went back and performed with stock tires.
If you don't want to acknowledge it then don't... but slapping it in the face and saying it's a mockery, while only offering hypothetical- 'what if' situations and never a proven instance is nonsense.
And yes, I know... Whoopty-do, indeed. All the armchair racers in this world that are on a play station can also turn into an apex while going 150mph+, knowing full well if they were to go 3mph faster they'd lose center and flip into a tree and be infused to the metal in a blazing hunk of devastation. Everyone can do it.
"It is widely considered the toughest, most dangerous and most demanding purpose-built racing circuit in the world." So, adjusting the track ready car to perform better in one instance on the course would mean fouling up in another... These cars are built around this. If anything the best idea would be to put on the Rcompounds. Which some did- That made performance improve ~2 seconds, as they went back and performed with stock tires.
If you don't want to acknowledge it then don't... but slapping it in the face and saying it's a mockery, while only offering hypothetical- 'what if' situations and never a proven instance is nonsense.
8/11/10, 07:44 PM
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http://www.speedsportlife.com/2008/1...itter-porsche/
Sorry. There’s no “Nurburgring lap time record” for a simple reason: Real lap time records are set by real race cars, using real timing and scoring equipment, during actual competition or sanctioned practice sessions. They aren’t “self-reported” for the same reason the World’s Strongest Man Contest isn’t held by having everyone mail in their “results”: because people can, and do, lie and cheat.
Last edited by Vermillion06; 8/11/10 at 07:51 PM.
8/11/10, 08:48 PM
#20
MOTM Committee Member
Come on, you clearly aren't up to date on what's taking palce. (You showed during the, 'if they start on a roll' statement). I mean look at the top 15-20 cars, which of them seem out of place to you? So, the Enzo adjusted it's camber plates, the MC12 lowered it's suspension, the ZR1 swapped gears, Zonda used nitrous and the R8 was stripped of the interior. Right? Clearly.
And yes, I know... Whoopty-do, indeed. All the armchair racers in this world that are on a play station can also turn into an apex while going 150mph+, knowing full well if they were to go 3mph faster they'd lose center and flip into a tree and be infused to the metal in a blazing hunk of devastation. Everyone can do it.
"It is widely considered the toughest, most dangerous and most demanding purpose-built racing circuit in the world." So, adjusting the track ready car to perform better in one instance on the course would mean fouling up in another... These cars are built around this. If anything the best idea would be to put on the Rcompounds. Which some did- That made performance improve ~2 seconds, as they went back and performed with stock tires.
If you don't want to acknowledge it then don't... but slapping it in the face and saying it's a mockery, while only offering hypothetical- 'what if' situations and never a proven instance is nonsense.
And yes, I know... Whoopty-do, indeed. All the armchair racers in this world that are on a play station can also turn into an apex while going 150mph+, knowing full well if they were to go 3mph faster they'd lose center and flip into a tree and be infused to the metal in a blazing hunk of devastation. Everyone can do it.
"It is widely considered the toughest, most dangerous and most demanding purpose-built racing circuit in the world." So, adjusting the track ready car to perform better in one instance on the course would mean fouling up in another... These cars are built around this. If anything the best idea would be to put on the Rcompounds. Which some did- That made performance improve ~2 seconds, as they went back and performed with stock tires.
If you don't want to acknowledge it then don't... but slapping it in the face and saying it's a mockery, while only offering hypothetical- 'what if' situations and never a proven instance is nonsense.
If you want to be naive enough to think manufacturers wouldn't "tweak" their cars to get better times then so be it.
Anyway, I've stated my position numerous times. It is summarized perfectly below.
http://www.speedsportlife.com/2008/1...itter-porsche/
Sorry. There’s no “Nurburgring lap time record” for a simple reason: Real lap time records are set by real race cars, using real timing and scoring equipment, during actual competition or sanctioned practice sessions. They aren’t “self-reported” for the same reason the World’s Strongest Man Contest isn’t held by having everyone mail in their “results”: because people can, and do, lie and cheat.
Sorry. There’s no “Nurburgring lap time record” for a simple reason: Real lap time records are set by real race cars, using real timing and scoring equipment, during actual competition or sanctioned practice sessions. They aren’t “self-reported” for the same reason the World’s Strongest Man Contest isn’t held by having everyone mail in their “results”: because people can, and do, lie and cheat.