Automagically

I just thought the title might stir things up a little. This really just has to do with a very short conversation with one of the AMG event aids that I talked to that led me to start thinking. Are people still thinking that Mustangs are not good enough for the track? I mentioned that I was a hot rod guy and enjoy the torque and that's when he stated that the Mustang was very big and much more hot rod.

He is the owner of an E46 M3 and a Porsche GT3 he used as track cars. I thought I was in comfortable quarters now. So I mention the overwhelming achievements that the new Mustang has accomplished and that for around $3000 or less you can have a great weekend track car. Apparently I was the only one thinking this as the remark back to me was that the Mustang was far more hot rod than track car and that it would take a lot more to make the Mustang track worthy. I guess this guy just didn’t get the memo. Well, beloved BMW’s be damned I still stand by my Mustang argument. While this guy owns two cars I lust after, I find his argument for the Mustang very narrow minded.

What do you guys think? How much do YOU think it takes to make a new Mustang a track toy. This all being said about a car that stands toe to toe with a new M3 on the track.

Just because

t-ray

Disclaimer - my mustang is still brand new, so I have no practical experience driving it on a track.

I'm sure the Mustang is a worthy track car. I know I enjoy the hell out of driving it on some of the backroads around my house. However, if I were to choose a car for dedicated track use, it would not be my mustang.

The mustang is capable of putting up ridiculous times. But sometimes it's not about raw laptimes. A slower car does not mean an inferior car(depending on series and classifications). Take a Lotus Elise for example. Compared to a 2011 Mustang, it would be dog slow. But that thing is an absolute scalpel, and I would imagine that its limits are much greater than those of a mustang.

Sometimes it comes down to feedback. I know that my g35, in current trim, is more capable than my mustang, in current trim. The g35 is down about 100hp/100tq compared to the mustang, but the times between the two cars would be comparable depending on venue.

t-ray

I would like to add, that my opinions on the capabilities of the mustang are entirely based on my limited experience with the car. As I become more familiar with it, I will no doubt become more confident in its dynamic abilities.

Freakazoid

I think the car in its stock form while not a focused track car, is still a car that can be taken to and enjoyed at the track.

With the brembo package and/or some wider wheels, and some slight suspension tweaks, I think the mustang really shows its potential. Saying its not a track car at all is virtually just a stereotype, and people need to be broken of that.

Saying it's comparable to a M3, etc I think is a bit much. It's roots are still a 'hot rod' car and not a track car. The weight shifting, the body roll, etc all reflect this VERY heavily in its track abilities (and lack thereof).

Basically what I'm saying is that while it's not the muscle car, straight line car of old, it's made some SIGNIFICANT achievements...but it's really not to the level of the track focused M3, GT3, etc etc


Disclaimer, coming from 135i (the almost dead equivalent to a 335i)

LEwis26

But yet the 2011 mustang 5.0 was .09 seconds behind the m3 on the road track.

Clearly it has the chops to keep up with overpriced m3's.

m4a1mustang

I'll agree that it's a very track ready car... but it might not be the most track-friendly. It depends on what feel you are going for. Obviously with the plethora of suspension mods available you can build a 5.0 into a corner-carving track beast, but in stock form it doesn't have the same "feel" as, say, a 370Z. Granted it should be a lot quicker around a track than the Z.

Freakazoid

This gets toted everywhere and used all the time. I LOVE my 5.0 but I think there's still something 'off' about that test. It may be rigged numbers (doubtful), but I think the track they used may have favored the mustang's setup.

Also don't forget that was comparing to a mustang with a brembo package, which only equates to less than 20% of the mustangs built. On a track there will be a SIGNIFICANT difference between a brembo/nonbrembo mustang,

m4a1mustang

Well if you look at the C&D lighting lap times, the M3 beat the Brembo 5.0 by at least 2 seconds, which seems about right to me. Maybe at Willow the 5.0 can keep up, but throw VIR into the mix and the M3 really shines in comparison.

Vermillion06

It's brand snobbery. Notice how they use the term "hot rod" as a derogatory.
They just don't want to believe that a "lowly" domestic Mustang of all things
can perform as well as their status symbols. No one I talk to about how the 5.0 GT peforms believes that it can hang with the "godly" M3. They all say "oh it must have had been a tube framed race car to even catch up to the ultimate driving machine"

CO_VaporGT_09

I don't know what you're talking about, Mustang not a scalpel?

(I'm a good 20-30 feet behind this guy, and I still dwarf him...)



http://www.patterndraftimaging.com/p...8afa#h13eb8afa

Freakazoid

I didn't see that, but that's what I was thinking and what I was looking for, so thanks

Exactly what I was anticipating. Brembo package hanging just a bit behind the M3, and I'd bet a non brembo would be 3-4 seconds behind.

Automagically

I agree, stock for stock the Mustang is not built to oust the M3. I am yet to drive an M3 of any type but if it is anything but better than my 335 then it's going to be a hard call as to what my next car will be. Parts for the Mustang are so much less expensive.

I just see it as a general car company has a car that with new shocks, springs and a few other chassis goodies can hold its own comfortably with the likes of BMW and Mercedes' performance arms. That's saying a lot. These companies spend a lot of time getting these specialty cars prepared and engineered.

Freakazoid

100% this and why I'm in a 5.0 now

Automagically

This is what was happening here. When I even brought up the car it was like instant disbelief. Almost as if the brain was rejecting that possibility, like logic was not met here.

I will say it has a lot to do with driver preference and what you like. Like I said in my review I didn't regard the AMG line to be all that fantastic compared to what I had in my mind and what I felt driving them.

That's a sweet picture. Looks like your Mustang is going to eat the Lotus. I didn't realize it had the GT500 lower fascia, that looks great btw.


Even if for some reason my next ride is an M3, I would never think to myself that a car like the Mustang isn't capable and wouldn't be any amount of surprised to see one spank me on the track.

CO_VaporGT_09

The Lotus guy is one of the instructors, I just got behind him to do some 'show me the line' stuff and the session ended.
I've got the Saleen PJ/Heritage front bumper, but basically it's the GT500 clone without the GT500 grille or hood.

I keep up with the older BMWs all the time, even though I outweigh them considerably (haven't done anything to lighten the car -- yet). There have been a few of the newer V8 models with 410+hp that I can't come close to hanging with, though. That would require the 5.0 (or the top end package I'll hopefully get installed next winter) and a lighter car. I follow a guy in a Miata with some sticky tires on, it's the same story as always -- catch up on the straights, lose him in the turns. But I'm hauling 1000lbs more than he is!
It's a fun car on the track, though, and SOOO much cheaper (and simpler) to mod and maintain than the BMWs, Lotus, etc.

jlmounce

The one thing that was pretty much entirely overlooked here is the drivers. Car for car the 5.0 is still at a disadvantage over cars like the m3. But then, you're also talking between 20-30,000 in price difference between the two as well. You'd expect it to be.

However, the driver makes the car. A good driver in the Mustang will trounce an average driver in an M3.

That's even taking into account that the 2011 mustangs are good. They've come a long way.

I've seen people in SN95 GT's blowing the doors off of much superior cars. Simply because they could coax the most from their vehicle, while the other driver could not.

So when anybody brings these types of statements up, I always find myself asking them to join me for an HPDE to back up their claims. That usually quiets them down a bit.

MKPony

Don't forget this is comparing to an M3 which is a pretty small percentage of BMW 3 Series as well. It will be interesting to see what the Boss does in the Lightning Lap (hopefully they'll do it and do it with the Track Key).

fdjizm

What you heard is the sound of an angry m3 owner.
let them hate, when they are in your rear view they will be really pissed.

Freakazoid

of 3 series yes, but that's comparing apples to oranges.

As you said though, I'd be MOST curious about a boss 302 vs a m3 comparison. That should be QUITE interesting.

Dennis-2011-GT

Take a 2011 with Brembo-Package and spend another 3000$ for dampers, springs and a Watts-Link. You'll be suprised how competitive a Mustang can be, for less than 40.000 $

A friend of mine couldn't follow me with his E46 M3 last weekend on the Ring. Both on street tires.

Just my 2 cents....

Cheers Dennis