More 2009/2010/2011 rumours - Vette/Camaro and Stang
10/25/06, 01:53 PM
#21
I Have No Life
Thread Starter
The rumour was that it was supposed to be a refreshed front end..and not much else. Then Mark Fields said no... not good enough... and pushed it back a year and pushed forward the reskin to 2010.
Sounds like----->
BEFORE:
2009MY different front end
2012MY reskin
(sound familiar...Road/Track)
AFTER:
2010MY Reskin
I wouldn't call the report bogus, but like stated above, that in interviews because its print, they didn't mention if the '09 was release year or model year (MY)
If its release year... does that mean the Camaro is also an 09 or 010 as Steve Saleen referes to them both as 09s... (or is the mustang pushed forward....)
THE PLOT THICKENS
Sounds like----->
BEFORE:
2009MY different front end
2012MY reskin
(sound familiar...Road/Track)
AFTER:
2010MY Reskin
I wouldn't call the report bogus, but like stated above, that in interviews because its print, they didn't mention if the '09 was release year or model year (MY)
If its release year... does that mean the Camaro is also an 09 or 010 as Steve Saleen referes to them both as 09s... (or is the mustang pushed forward....)
THE PLOT THICKENS
10/26/06, 08:30 AM
#25
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If I understand, the facelift/reskin will occur for the '10MY but released sometimes mid-'09, a touch earlier than might be usual? Then the more substantial "redeisgn" would occur for the '12MY.
Is it me, or does it seems Ford is really dragging its feet and getting behind the curve on keeping the Mustang fresh and competitive? Ford has had a history of doing this, letting excellent cars whither on the vine too long. My '94 Probe is a case in point, garning all sorts of awards and sales records when released in '93, but then hardly touched in any real way while the competion drove past it, finally having to be put out to pasture after '97. Sure, that was followed by the Mercury Cougar, but that was an insipid secretary's car compared to the tight, taut and zippy Probe.
Keeping a model line fresh is especially important for performance and "style" cars such as the Stang, much more so than basic transportation appliances. The buyers and, especially, the buyer-influencing enthusiasts well represented on this forum are far more scrutinizing and demanding than someone just looking for a milkjug getter. Tape and scoop packages, ala GT-CS, will throw a little meat to the peacocks but offer little for the real, gas-in-the-arteries performance enthusiasts who comprise the core of the Mustang's entourage.
When Ford will be coming out with a primped up Stang sometime in '09, which will be, essentially, a lot of old wine in an old bottle with a fresh label, GM and DC will be releasing entirely new and by all accounts, very compelling competitors with completely fresh styling, very powerful motors and drivetrains, and significantly more sophisticated chassis. Contrary to some, I think the economies of scale of their shared platforms and basic pricing pressure will not cause them to be significantly more expensive than the Stang and may actually represent equal or better values.
Am I the only one who fear that Ford's efforts with the Stang will be too little, too late? Has the Mustang's great success caused Ford to become smug and complacent with the Stang? Will the new competitors totally take the wind out of the Mustangs sales?
It sounds a bit encouraging that the new Ford Grand Poobah sent the initial, apparantly insipid, Stang redesign back to the trenches for something more compelling, perhaps he has a better appreciation of not resting on one's laurels.
I do hope Ford's Bold Moves is more than clever but vacuous rhetoric more reminiscent of a scared politician on a loosing slate. Ford really does need to come out with some bold substance with the '09-'10 redo -- some real hp increases, six speeds across the board, brakes capable of more than one lap, suspensions on par with its contemporaries rather than a Connestoga wagon, interior quality at least up to the standards of the cheapest VW.
Sure, a purtied-up face will be nice and necessary too, of course, but its fairly apparent what the Camaro and Challengers will be packing under the hood and fenders and at this point, the Stang simply doesn't measure up. Ford might try to take the approach of simply offering the cheaper ride, but the challengers may rightly counter that they offer the better rides and better values overall. Rather, I hope Ford takes the high road and offers the better performance car with a higher value, not simply the low road of a bargain basement sticker.
Is it me, or does it seems Ford is really dragging its feet and getting behind the curve on keeping the Mustang fresh and competitive? Ford has had a history of doing this, letting excellent cars whither on the vine too long. My '94 Probe is a case in point, garning all sorts of awards and sales records when released in '93, but then hardly touched in any real way while the competion drove past it, finally having to be put out to pasture after '97. Sure, that was followed by the Mercury Cougar, but that was an insipid secretary's car compared to the tight, taut and zippy Probe.
Keeping a model line fresh is especially important for performance and "style" cars such as the Stang, much more so than basic transportation appliances. The buyers and, especially, the buyer-influencing enthusiasts well represented on this forum are far more scrutinizing and demanding than someone just looking for a milkjug getter. Tape and scoop packages, ala GT-CS, will throw a little meat to the peacocks but offer little for the real, gas-in-the-arteries performance enthusiasts who comprise the core of the Mustang's entourage.
When Ford will be coming out with a primped up Stang sometime in '09, which will be, essentially, a lot of old wine in an old bottle with a fresh label, GM and DC will be releasing entirely new and by all accounts, very compelling competitors with completely fresh styling, very powerful motors and drivetrains, and significantly more sophisticated chassis. Contrary to some, I think the economies of scale of their shared platforms and basic pricing pressure will not cause them to be significantly more expensive than the Stang and may actually represent equal or better values.
Am I the only one who fear that Ford's efforts with the Stang will be too little, too late? Has the Mustang's great success caused Ford to become smug and complacent with the Stang? Will the new competitors totally take the wind out of the Mustangs sales?
It sounds a bit encouraging that the new Ford Grand Poobah sent the initial, apparantly insipid, Stang redesign back to the trenches for something more compelling, perhaps he has a better appreciation of not resting on one's laurels.
I do hope Ford's Bold Moves is more than clever but vacuous rhetoric more reminiscent of a scared politician on a loosing slate. Ford really does need to come out with some bold substance with the '09-'10 redo -- some real hp increases, six speeds across the board, brakes capable of more than one lap, suspensions on par with its contemporaries rather than a Connestoga wagon, interior quality at least up to the standards of the cheapest VW.
Sure, a purtied-up face will be nice and necessary too, of course, but its fairly apparent what the Camaro and Challengers will be packing under the hood and fenders and at this point, the Stang simply doesn't measure up. Ford might try to take the approach of simply offering the cheaper ride, but the challengers may rightly counter that they offer the better rides and better values overall. Rather, I hope Ford takes the high road and offers the better performance car with a higher value, not simply the low road of a bargain basement sticker.
10/26/06, 08:35 AM
#26
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10/26/06, 08:46 AM
#27
Needs to be more Astony
10/26/06, 09:51 AM
#28
I Have No Life
Thread Starter
Sorry..i should restate that...
The reskin in 2010 ... will probably be like the 99 in that... it will have other updates as well, but also NOT run till 2012 and then have major update. I give it a 5 year run like now... 2010-2015
It will have engine updates, it will have a new interior/updates, it will have new suspension parts, wheels etc etc etc
The reskin in 2010 ... will probably be like the 99 in that... it will have other updates as well, but also NOT run till 2012 and then have major update. I give it a 5 year run like now... 2010-2015
It will have engine updates, it will have a new interior/updates, it will have new suspension parts, wheels etc etc etc
10/26/06, 10:26 AM
#29
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Until I see something new out of Ford, I too fear that the Mustang GT and Mustang SE's will be lagging behind the Camaro & Challenger.
GM doesn't have a problem dropping a 350-400h.p. motor in a Camero Z28. It will most likely only cost a few grand more then a Mustang GT.
Instead of upgrading the Mustang GT, Ford will release a Mach1 with 350-400h.p. to compete with the Camaro and Challenger, and they(Ford) will expect us to pay top dollar too!
Boy, just what I want, a 400 h.p. $38k Mach1 Mustang, while Joe Blow across the street has a 400h.p. Camero Z28 for $29k or $30k???
Ford needs to equal what the competition is doing in both Performance AND Price!
GM doesn't have a problem dropping a 350-400h.p. motor in a Camero Z28. It will most likely only cost a few grand more then a Mustang GT.
Instead of upgrading the Mustang GT, Ford will release a Mach1 with 350-400h.p. to compete with the Camaro and Challenger, and they(Ford) will expect us to pay top dollar too!
Boy, just what I want, a 400 h.p. $38k Mach1 Mustang, while Joe Blow across the street has a 400h.p. Camero Z28 for $29k or $30k???
Ford needs to equal what the competition is doing in both Performance AND Price!
10/26/06, 10:32 AM
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Yes, it will need an updated suspension, and rumors indicated they might be finally gearing up for putting in a Control Blade IRS to match (exceed, hopefully) those of the Camaro and Challenger.
10/26/06, 12:30 PM
#31
I Have No Life
Thread Starter
Not that I don't agree that more power is good.
But we (performance guys/gals) are but a SO SMALL piece of the pie, and we all know that.
Don't forget how successful the Mustang was back when the Camaro was outpowering it years ago... so don't let that get you down...
Most people don't care if its 0.3-0.5 seconds faster because its got a bigger engine. It's much more complicated than that...
Yet we don't want Ford to be so underpowered ... and lose focus across the board on mustang variants and power ratings.
What we also don't know is the final weights/dimensions of the cars... mustang included.
We know we are getting bigger engines and options in the mustang.
So they aren't taking it lying down.
But you don't want it over priced out of your target market..because they won't sell...
And think about this... even if the Camaro were to come out with a big strong powerful car... if it sells for the first year or 2... will it have staying power. And lets be honest... if the V6 camaro doesn't sell... the camaro could have a bad ending...
"If it gets cancelled again, it WON'T be coming back"
But we (performance guys/gals) are but a SO SMALL piece of the pie, and we all know that.
Don't forget how successful the Mustang was back when the Camaro was outpowering it years ago... so don't let that get you down...
Most people don't care if its 0.3-0.5 seconds faster because its got a bigger engine. It's much more complicated than that...
Yet we don't want Ford to be so underpowered ... and lose focus across the board on mustang variants and power ratings.
What we also don't know is the final weights/dimensions of the cars... mustang included.
We know we are getting bigger engines and options in the mustang.
So they aren't taking it lying down.
But you don't want it over priced out of your target market..because they won't sell...
And think about this... even if the Camaro were to come out with a big strong powerful car... if it sells for the first year or 2... will it have staying power. And lets be honest... if the V6 camaro doesn't sell... the camaro could have a bad ending...
"If it gets cancelled again, it WON'T be coming back"
10/27/06, 05:40 AM
#32
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The Camaro & Challenger will not effect the V6 Mustang. Any decreases in sales will be minimal.
V8 Camaro & Challenger will be hot for 2 or 3 years and then start to fall. Their V6 sales will be under par, and we will re-live the death of these two vehicles again.
But, that doesn't get Ford off the hook! Ford still needs to equal power, performance & price.
V8 Camaro & Challenger will be hot for 2 or 3 years and then start to fall. Their V6 sales will be under par, and we will re-live the death of these two vehicles again.
But, that doesn't get Ford off the hook! Ford still needs to equal power, performance & price.
10/27/06, 09:02 AM
#33
I Have No Life
Thread Starter
I agree
However I don't want to see the V6 Camaro fail... if it does..so do the rest. And if they go away... that will not force the hand of Ford to do things to compete. Competition is good.
However I don't want to see the V6 Camaro fail... if it does..so do the rest. And if they go away... that will not force the hand of Ford to do things to compete. Competition is good.
10/27/06, 09:41 AM
#34
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The Camaro & Challenger will not effect the V6 Mustang. Any decreases in sales will be minimal.
V8 Camaro & Challenger will be hot for 2 or 3 years and then start to fall. Their V6 sales will be under par, and we will re-live the death of these two vehicles again.
But, that doesn't get Ford off the hook! Ford still needs to equal power, performance & price.
V8 Camaro & Challenger will be hot for 2 or 3 years and then start to fall. Their V6 sales will be under par, and we will re-live the death of these two vehicles again.
But, that doesn't get Ford off the hook! Ford still needs to equal power, performance & price.
Even at the V6 level, which perhaps only the Camaro will play at, there is the real possibility for an excellent car. Ford will likely have rolled out a 3.5 varient with maybe something approaching 300hp. But Chevy has its DOHC 3.6 which could readily be made to match that. Ford may try to play a bargain-basement strategy by retaining the lively axle, but Chevy may well make a compelling case of a slightly more expensive but more effective IRS as the better overall value. But then again, a cheap live axle may well be good enough for the great unwashed with the superior performance and ride of an IRS being lost on them, at least in the less discerning, more price sensitive V6 market.
At the V8 level, aiming for the more discerning enthusiast market, they both look like they will have a lot of ammunition to bring to the field. Both have very powerful V8s at an easy grab on their parts shelves, six speed trannies to finely dispense that power and very capapble IRS suspensions to match broad-spectrum dynamic capabilities to their presumed straight-ahead prowess.
Styling is very subjective, but both concepts were very good looking in general and appear able to compete well there too. The production Challenger will apparently be a dead ringer for the concept and given DC's past history of bringing show cars to the market unsullied by production constraints bodes well here. The Camaro will probably be a slightly cleaned up version of the concept, with some of the goofier aspects excised or redone (grill, tail lights) but whose basic lines will closely reflect the concept. GM's abilty to faithfully retain a concept cars lines in the production varient is, well, not a very sure thing, but the excellent Solstice show they do have it in 'em.
The Camaro and Challenger will inevitably get the fresh-face, new-car bump inititially against the old warhorse Stang. But it's yet unclear how many oats and how much of a new grooming Ford will lavish on its stead in '09-'10 to put a shine on its coat and new spring in its step when the new stallions prance into the ring. Sounds like the initial refresh was going to be a pretty thin gruel and a quick spritz but apparantly, Mullaly (sp-?) took one look at that insipid approach and sent them back to their drawing boards to do a proper job.
There's rumors of production capacity being prepped for the Aussie Control Blade IRS and the Aussies have been running a hi-po 5.4 for a number of years. Perhaps it's dawned on Ford NA that if they can do it down under, then why the hell can't we do it up here too. So perhaps in addition to a purtied-up face, the Stang will get some real meat and substance too.
There will be a trillion other variables too. What will be the level of quality and execution of the newcomers, the former of which was the biggest knife in the heart of the Camaro? How agressive will be the pricing? Will aging, kids-out-of-the-nest boomers swap out their guzzling status-symbol SUVs for not quite so thirsty status-symbol pony cars, especially in an age of gas price uncertainty? How agressively will GM and DC price their newcomers to cut into the pony-car dance? Will the plunging housing market drag down the economy in general and the home-equity-financed disposable income in particular?
10/28/06, 03:15 PM
#35
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Im never getting the new mustang if it had the 4.6 or even 5.0 under the hood... gm and dodge are going to 6.0 + and for is still 5.0 and under... this sucks ... and WHAT ? aiming for 350 hp ? WHOAAA thats too much ... WTF... camaro is going to be 400+ dodge 420+ hp's and ford is still tweaking the 4.6 ? ENOUGH WITH 4.6 go with 6.2 aluminum blocks... 2v is fine just make it a 2v 6.2 aluminum block engine... I'd get one for sure... No wonder why people still say FOUND ON ROAD DEAD... or these stuff..
Dont get me wrong guys I really love mustangs... even if my first mustang was a 2005 im still prety sure that i love mustangs more than most of the guys out there... but thats enough with the 4.6 ... that will be called something like Rice one day .. and im sure no one wants his NEW 2010 mustang to be called RICE... when its a muscle car...
Dont get me wrong guys I really love mustangs... even if my first mustang was a 2005 im still prety sure that i love mustangs more than most of the guys out there... but thats enough with the 4.6 ... that will be called something like Rice one day .. and im sure no one wants his NEW 2010 mustang to be called RICE... when its a muscle car...
10/28/06, 04:42 PM
#36
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Don't forget the mustang is a pony car, not a muscle car or true sports car. It doesn't have to use a giant engine to be fun to drive. It is more about the total package of the Mustang that gets such a big following. The 4.6L V8 is nothing to be ashamed of, but if total displacement is what you are after then get a GT500? Besides if the power output is too small for you there is always the aftermarket...
The Challenger and Camaro will both be more expensive than the Mustang. This is another one of the biggest positives to the Mustang. it's cost vs. performance can not be beaten by any other car. Where else can you get a V8, manual transmission, RWD for under 27K? Not GM, Not Chrysler and most certainly not any of the other car manufactures. The Mustang was revolutionary when it came out and it's still going strong today.
Just because the redesign / refresh won't have a larger engine, doesn't mean it wont be a great car. The S197 is better in every aspect when you compare it to older versions of the car... Doesn't that mean that the refresh will be the same [as far as advancement goes?]
I was thinking about holding out for the redesign, but I don't think I can go without a Mustang for too much longer (it's only been 2 months since I sold the 89)
The Challenger and Camaro will both be more expensive than the Mustang. This is another one of the biggest positives to the Mustang. it's cost vs. performance can not be beaten by any other car. Where else can you get a V8, manual transmission, RWD for under 27K? Not GM, Not Chrysler and most certainly not any of the other car manufactures. The Mustang was revolutionary when it came out and it's still going strong today.
Just because the redesign / refresh won't have a larger engine, doesn't mean it wont be a great car. The S197 is better in every aspect when you compare it to older versions of the car... Doesn't that mean that the refresh will be the same [as far as advancement goes?]
I was thinking about holding out for the redesign, but I don't think I can go without a Mustang for too much longer (it's only been 2 months since I sold the 89)
10/28/06, 07:49 PM
#37
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I wouldn't be quite so sanguine about the decendancy of either the Camaro and Challenger. Sure, the Challenger, in its pony-car iteration, disappeared over 30 years ago and the Camaro faded away but a few years ago. But to presume that their histories automatically predispose the fates of the new versions is, I think, glib and it is wisest for all, especially Ford, to presume that they WILL be excellent cars and very stiff competition. To paraphrase the old saying, it is folly to underestimate your competition.
Even at the V6 level, which perhaps only the Camaro will play at, there is the real possibility for an excellent car. Ford will likely have rolled out a 3.5 varient with maybe something approaching 300hp. But Chevy has its DOHC 3.6 which could readily be made to match that. Ford may try to play a bargain-basement strategy by retaining the lively axle, but Chevy may well make a compelling case of a slightly more expensive but more effective IRS as the better overall value. But then again, a cheap live axle may well be good enough for the great unwashed with the superior performance and ride of an IRS being lost on them, at least in the less discerning, more price sensitive V6 market.
At the V8 level, aiming for the more discerning enthusiast market, they both look like they will have a lot of ammunition to bring to the field. Both have very powerful V8s at an easy grab on their parts shelves, six speed trannies to finely dispense that power and very capapble IRS suspensions to match broad-spectrum dynamic capabilities to their presumed straight-ahead prowess.
Styling is very subjective, but both concepts were very good looking in general and appear able to compete well there too. The production Challenger will apparently be a dead ringer for the concept and given DC's past history of bringing show cars to the market unsullied by production constraints bodes well here. The Camaro will probably be a slightly cleaned up version of the concept, with some of the goofier aspects excised or redone (grill, tail lights) but whose basic lines will closely reflect the concept. GM's abilty to faithfully retain a concept cars lines in the production varient is, well, not a very sure thing, but the excellent Solstice show they do have it in 'em.
The Camaro and Challenger will inevitably get the fresh-face, new-car bump inititially against the old warhorse Stang. But it's yet unclear how many oats and how much of a new grooming Ford will lavish on its stead in '09-'10 to put a shine on its coat and new spring in its step when the new stallions prance into the ring. Sounds like the initial refresh was going to be a pretty thin gruel and a quick spritz but apparantly, Mullaly (sp-?) took one look at that insipid approach and sent them back to their drawing boards to do a proper job.
There's rumors of production capacity being prepped for the Aussie Control Blade IRS and the Aussies have been running a hi-po 5.4 for a number of years. Perhaps it's dawned on Ford NA that if they can do it down under, then why the hell can't we do it up here too. So perhaps in addition to a purtied-up face, the Stang will get some real meat and substance too.
There will be a trillion other variables too. What will be the level of quality and execution of the newcomers, the former of which was the biggest knife in the heart of the Camaro? How agressive will be the pricing? Will aging, kids-out-of-the-nest boomers swap out their guzzling status-symbol SUVs for not quite so thirsty status-symbol pony cars, especially in an age of gas price uncertainty? How agressively will GM and DC price their newcomers to cut into the pony-car dance? Will the plunging housing market drag down the economy in general and the home-equity-financed disposable income in particular?
Even at the V6 level, which perhaps only the Camaro will play at, there is the real possibility for an excellent car. Ford will likely have rolled out a 3.5 varient with maybe something approaching 300hp. But Chevy has its DOHC 3.6 which could readily be made to match that. Ford may try to play a bargain-basement strategy by retaining the lively axle, but Chevy may well make a compelling case of a slightly more expensive but more effective IRS as the better overall value. But then again, a cheap live axle may well be good enough for the great unwashed with the superior performance and ride of an IRS being lost on them, at least in the less discerning, more price sensitive V6 market.
At the V8 level, aiming for the more discerning enthusiast market, they both look like they will have a lot of ammunition to bring to the field. Both have very powerful V8s at an easy grab on their parts shelves, six speed trannies to finely dispense that power and very capapble IRS suspensions to match broad-spectrum dynamic capabilities to their presumed straight-ahead prowess.
Styling is very subjective, but both concepts were very good looking in general and appear able to compete well there too. The production Challenger will apparently be a dead ringer for the concept and given DC's past history of bringing show cars to the market unsullied by production constraints bodes well here. The Camaro will probably be a slightly cleaned up version of the concept, with some of the goofier aspects excised or redone (grill, tail lights) but whose basic lines will closely reflect the concept. GM's abilty to faithfully retain a concept cars lines in the production varient is, well, not a very sure thing, but the excellent Solstice show they do have it in 'em.
The Camaro and Challenger will inevitably get the fresh-face, new-car bump inititially against the old warhorse Stang. But it's yet unclear how many oats and how much of a new grooming Ford will lavish on its stead in '09-'10 to put a shine on its coat and new spring in its step when the new stallions prance into the ring. Sounds like the initial refresh was going to be a pretty thin gruel and a quick spritz but apparantly, Mullaly (sp-?) took one look at that insipid approach and sent them back to their drawing boards to do a proper job.
There's rumors of production capacity being prepped for the Aussie Control Blade IRS and the Aussies have been running a hi-po 5.4 for a number of years. Perhaps it's dawned on Ford NA that if they can do it down under, then why the hell can't we do it up here too. So perhaps in addition to a purtied-up face, the Stang will get some real meat and substance too.
There will be a trillion other variables too. What will be the level of quality and execution of the newcomers, the former of which was the biggest knife in the heart of the Camaro? How agressive will be the pricing? Will aging, kids-out-of-the-nest boomers swap out their guzzling status-symbol SUVs for not quite so thirsty status-symbol pony cars, especially in an age of gas price uncertainty? How agressively will GM and DC price their newcomers to cut into the pony-car dance? Will the plunging housing market drag down the economy in general and the home-equity-financed disposable income in particular?
This version of the Mustang has created more buzz and generated more spin off than any other car in history IMO. The last thing we need (as mustang lovers and supporters) is self cannibalization. I feel that there will be room for all three cars to coexist and thrive in a market (domestic) that needs help.
Not everything Ford does is F'd up (mustang/probe) and sometimes they guess and strategize right. So yuppie man relax, chill and use you intelligence for something that really needs changing like the George Bush economyor war policy.
10/29/06, 12:48 AM
#38
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im gonna say, if they made, 32v 4.6 330-350hp 320-360tq 6speed tranny, possible irs, the suv platforms would be good to adapt from, considering the weight they move and not have the cobra IRS issue, but i think ford is still a little scared after that little design error lol, a facelift/re-skin, lighten it up with optional race package (no rear seat, no power options, limited sound system, no sound deadning) double a-arm front suspension,strong simple sub-frame,basicly tweak current chassis, while adding the more peformace competition parts, redily avalible!! build it right the first time, less TSBs and recals, i would be happy to take out a loan for 33,000 HAHA... but we can only hope
10/29/06, 01:50 AM
#39
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I wouldn't be quite so sanguine about the decendancy of either the Camaro and Challenger. Sure, the Challenger, in its pony-car iteration, disappeared over 30 years ago and the Camaro faded away but a few years ago. But to presume that their histories automatically predispose the fates of the new versions is, I think, glib and it is wisest for all, especially Ford, to presume that they WILL be excellent cars and very stiff competition. To paraphrase the old saying, it is folly to underestimate your competition.
Even at the V6 level, which perhaps only the Camaro will play at, there is the real possibility for an excellent car. Ford will likely have rolled out a 3.5 varient with maybe something approaching 300hp. But Chevy has its DOHC 3.6 which could readily be made to match that. Ford may try to play a bargain-basement strategy by retaining the lively axle, but Chevy may well make a compelling case of a slightly more expensive but more effective IRS as the better overall value. But then again, a cheap live axle may well be good enough for the great unwashed with the superior performance and ride of an IRS being lost on them, at least in the less discerning, more price sensitive V6 market.
At the V8 level, aiming for the more discerning enthusiast market, they both look like they will have a lot of ammunition to bring to the field. Both have very powerful V8s at an easy grab on their parts shelves, six speed trannies to finely dispense that power and very capapble IRS suspensions to match broad-spectrum dynamic capabilities to their presumed straight-ahead prowess.
Styling is very subjective, but both concepts were very good looking in general and appear able to compete well there too. The production Challenger will apparently be a dead ringer for the concept and given DC's past history of bringing show cars to the market unsullied by production constraints bodes well here. The Camaro will probably be a slightly cleaned up version of the concept, with some of the goofier aspects excised or redone (grill, tail lights) but whose basic lines will closely reflect the concept. GM's abilty to faithfully retain a concept cars lines in the production varient is, well, not a very sure thing, but the excellent Solstice show they do have it in 'em.
The Camaro and Challenger will inevitably get the fresh-face, new-car bump inititially against the old warhorse Stang. But it's yet unclear how many oats and how much of a new grooming Ford will lavish on its stead in '09-'10 to put a shine on its coat and new spring in its step when the new stallions prance into the ring. Sounds like the initial refresh was going to be a pretty thin gruel and a quick spritz but apparantly, Mullaly (sp-?) took one look at that insipid approach and sent them back to their drawing boards to do a proper job.
There's rumors of production capacity being prepped for the Aussie Control Blade IRS and the Aussies have been running a hi-po 5.4 for a number of years. Perhaps it's dawned on Ford NA that if they can do it down under, then why the hell can't we do it up here too. So perhaps in addition to a purtied-up face, the Stang will get some real meat and substance too.
There will be a trillion other variables too. What will be the level of quality and execution of the newcomers, the former of which was the biggest knife in the heart of the Camaro? How agressive will be the pricing? Will aging, kids-out-of-the-nest boomers swap out their guzzling status-symbol SUVs for not quite so thirsty status-symbol pony cars, especially in an age of gas price uncertainty? How agressively will GM and DC price their newcomers to cut into the pony-car dance? Will the plunging housing market drag down the economy in general and the home-equity-financed disposable income in particular?
Even at the V6 level, which perhaps only the Camaro will play at, there is the real possibility for an excellent car. Ford will likely have rolled out a 3.5 varient with maybe something approaching 300hp. But Chevy has its DOHC 3.6 which could readily be made to match that. Ford may try to play a bargain-basement strategy by retaining the lively axle, but Chevy may well make a compelling case of a slightly more expensive but more effective IRS as the better overall value. But then again, a cheap live axle may well be good enough for the great unwashed with the superior performance and ride of an IRS being lost on them, at least in the less discerning, more price sensitive V6 market.
At the V8 level, aiming for the more discerning enthusiast market, they both look like they will have a lot of ammunition to bring to the field. Both have very powerful V8s at an easy grab on their parts shelves, six speed trannies to finely dispense that power and very capapble IRS suspensions to match broad-spectrum dynamic capabilities to their presumed straight-ahead prowess.
Styling is very subjective, but both concepts were very good looking in general and appear able to compete well there too. The production Challenger will apparently be a dead ringer for the concept and given DC's past history of bringing show cars to the market unsullied by production constraints bodes well here. The Camaro will probably be a slightly cleaned up version of the concept, with some of the goofier aspects excised or redone (grill, tail lights) but whose basic lines will closely reflect the concept. GM's abilty to faithfully retain a concept cars lines in the production varient is, well, not a very sure thing, but the excellent Solstice show they do have it in 'em.
The Camaro and Challenger will inevitably get the fresh-face, new-car bump inititially against the old warhorse Stang. But it's yet unclear how many oats and how much of a new grooming Ford will lavish on its stead in '09-'10 to put a shine on its coat and new spring in its step when the new stallions prance into the ring. Sounds like the initial refresh was going to be a pretty thin gruel and a quick spritz but apparantly, Mullaly (sp-?) took one look at that insipid approach and sent them back to their drawing boards to do a proper job.
There's rumors of production capacity being prepped for the Aussie Control Blade IRS and the Aussies have been running a hi-po 5.4 for a number of years. Perhaps it's dawned on Ford NA that if they can do it down under, then why the hell can't we do it up here too. So perhaps in addition to a purtied-up face, the Stang will get some real meat and substance too.
There will be a trillion other variables too. What will be the level of quality and execution of the newcomers, the former of which was the biggest knife in the heart of the Camaro? How agressive will be the pricing? Will aging, kids-out-of-the-nest boomers swap out their guzzling status-symbol SUVs for not quite so thirsty status-symbol pony cars, especially in an age of gas price uncertainty? How agressively will GM and DC price their newcomers to cut into the pony-car dance? Will the plunging housing market drag down the economy in general and the home-equity-financed disposable income in particular?
Um reading your posts makes my head hurt with your literary dribble. This for God sakes this is a forum for mustang enthusiasts not MIT graduates, I take umbrage with some the comments you made about a car we all love. If you don't like the car or have that many problems with the company that makes the car sell it and by a Lexus or a beemer man! You, homes lneed to leave with your over analytical comments. Lets not worry about the pony car dance until the other dancers hit the floor. Remember the LS1 and SS car that came out were way over priced and the "pony" mustang that was way under powered and handled bad, did pretty really well against those beasts right? History usually repeats itself.
This version of the Mustang has created more buzz and generated more spin off than any other car in history IMO. The last thing we need (as mustang lovers and supporters) is self cannibalization. I feel that there will be room for all three cars to coexist and thrive in a market (domestic) that needs help.
Not everything Ford does is F'd up (mustang/probe) and sometimes they guess and strategize right. So yuppie man relax, chill and use you intelligence for something that really needs changing like the George Bush economyor war policy
This version of the Mustang has created more buzz and generated more spin off than any other car in history IMO. The last thing we need (as mustang lovers and supporters) is self cannibalization. I feel that there will be room for all three cars to coexist and thrive in a market (domestic) that needs help.
Not everything Ford does is F'd up (mustang/probe) and sometimes they guess and strategize right. So yuppie man relax, chill and use you intelligence for something that really needs changing like the George Bush economyor war policy
...I guess where I'm going with this is that I suspect the Bullitt will end up being more than a badge and sticker job with some green paint and an extra 10 horsepower. I now suspect it will be that in-between car to carry the "middle child" torch (375 - 400 HP) until the next major update of the Stang.
So let it be written...so let it be done.
10/29/06, 08:19 AM
#40
Shelby GT500 Member
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If the rumors are true for the Camaro, I am officially jumping ship. Ford better get their act together and come out with some powerful N/A motors. The rumors sound good, but I will believe it when the car is in showrooms. Ford has been talking about increasing displacement for years and nothing comes to fruition.