Manual noob questions
6/25/10, 02:49 PM
#1
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Manual noob questions
Hey I've been driving my new 5.0 Manual for about 5 days now and I feel like I'm getting the hang of stick even in heavy traffic, but I still have a few questions:
Where do you shift when leaving a stop light? I'm trying to push it a little but I feel like I'm shifting too late and just spinning the gears instead accelerating. I'm doing 1->2 at 4-5k 2->3 at 5k then shifting up to cruise when I hit 5-10 over the limit. Include shift points for both casual driving and "spirited" driving, not drag.
How do you deal with first gear? It seems to jump to 6k in no time.
Do you ever use 5th to maintain speed or is 6th the go to gear for drifting along? I've heard people say 5th is never used.
Do you apply gas before letting the clutch in to match rev's? Is that bad for the clutch? Should I just let the plates match speed on a downshift?
When starting from a hill, do you gas it before you let the clutch down and if so how much? I don't want to scrape the plates to hell but I don't want to stall.
Note: I'm using 3.73 rear ratio on 19" tires.
Where do you shift when leaving a stop light? I'm trying to push it a little but I feel like I'm shifting too late and just spinning the gears instead accelerating. I'm doing 1->2 at 4-5k 2->3 at 5k then shifting up to cruise when I hit 5-10 over the limit. Include shift points for both casual driving and "spirited" driving, not drag.
How do you deal with first gear? It seems to jump to 6k in no time.
Do you ever use 5th to maintain speed or is 6th the go to gear for drifting along? I've heard people say 5th is never used.
Do you apply gas before letting the clutch in to match rev's? Is that bad for the clutch? Should I just let the plates match speed on a downshift?
When starting from a hill, do you gas it before you let the clutch down and if so how much? I don't want to scrape the plates to hell but I don't want to stall.
Note: I'm using 3.73 rear ratio on 19" tires.
6/25/10, 02:54 PM
#2
I will buy Jack Stands!!!
You're for sure winding out those gears. 2.3L Escape 5 speed, I shifted it at 3k always and never had trouble. Honestly I think you could shift at about 2.5k and be perfectly fine. 4-5k seems like very spirited shifting to me LOL
For the rev match, I tap the gas, get the revs up, then let the clutch out while giving it a little gas to keep the revs the same.
For hills, I stay on the brakes, let the clutch out till it starts to catch, then quickly move right foot to the gas and go away without stalling.
Never driven a 5.0, and this is the advice of a 17 year old with 2.5 years stick experience, but that's my advice
Congrats on the new stang man!
For the rev match, I tap the gas, get the revs up, then let the clutch out while giving it a little gas to keep the revs the same.
For hills, I stay on the brakes, let the clutch out till it starts to catch, then quickly move right foot to the gas and go away without stalling.
Never driven a 5.0, and this is the advice of a 17 year old with 2.5 years stick experience, but that's my advice
Congrats on the new stang man!
6/25/10, 03:31 PM
#3
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wow you like to rev yours a bit hehe.
anyways, daily driving i try to keep it between 2500 and 3000 for normal shifting. i do give it gas first on all starts. i use 5th all the time for intown driving and cruising under 40-45 mph. i only use 1st if i come to a complete stop but shift to second normaly around 3k.
my car info is below
anyways, daily driving i try to keep it between 2500 and 3000 for normal shifting. i do give it gas first on all starts. i use 5th all the time for intown driving and cruising under 40-45 mph. i only use 1st if i come to a complete stop but shift to second normaly around 3k.
my car info is below
6/25/10, 03:37 PM
#4
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Driving a stick well is all about finesse, and a bit of time and practice to get that finesse. I've been driving sticks since about about 8 years old (farm tractors) and cars since 15, so about 4 decades now. Even at that, I think it still takes me a few months to truly get ultra smooth shifting a new car (where a passenger can't even feel me shifting into another gear).
When leaving a light in normal driving, I can't imagine a big torquey 5.0 V8 running 3.73s would need much over 2-2.5K on the tack when letting out the clutch. Again, most of it is smoothness in coordinating how much you're engaging the clutch with how much additional throttle you're feeding in to move smoothly off the line. Basically just practice here as with any other physical skill.
As for when to shift. In daily commuting, probably under 4K rpm before the next higher gear is a good rule of thumb. With 412hp and 3.73s, you WILL squirt through first gear in an eye blink, especially if you aren't gently on the right pedal. Of course, if you're in a bit more of a hurry, holding your shifts at ever higher rpm is in order depending on how much of a "hurry" you're in -- 15 minutes late for your own wedding, shift her at 7K :-)
As for 5th vs 6th, go ahead into 6th as long as you aren't lugging the motor (very low revs and a lot of throttle to maintain speed.) 6th is there for a reason, a good highway cruising gear for better mileage and less noise and wear, so if you don't need a big burst of acceleration, run the highest gear you can in daily driving. In more spirited driving, you would want to keep the revs up a bit more into a meatier part of the power band, and more torque multiplication, so holding a lower gear might be in order.
Matching the motor revs to your gearbox revs is more art and practice than anything else. You'll need a little throttle but you don't want to be slipping the clutch (2-3 seconds) between shifts as that will wear out your clutch prematurely. I would just really focus on smoothness at this point -- aiming for quick but smooth and imperceptible shifts in daily driving -- and then expanding your shifting envelope into more aggressive driving, while maintaining that level of smoothness, as you become more adept with practice. Any monkey can slam and bang off shifts quickly, but being able to do so smoothly, even when driving hard, is the mark of a good driver.
Starting from a dead stop on a hill is just an amplified version of stopping from a flat road. You will need a bit more gas and clutch slip, but keep calm and smooth as you don't need to race the motor. Again, practice, practice.
As you may be noticing the gist here, driving a stick shift means you're driving the car much more so than an auto box, where you're more along for the ride. That is both the challenge and reward of a stick shift, being able to master it well and thus having that much more control over the car. I always say, even after 40 years, I have yet to execute the perfect shift -- mostly 95th percentile and above but never perfect. Thus I always have a challenger to improve myself and my driving each time I go to pick up a quart of milk and that makes such mundane trips that little bit less mundane.
Welcome to the world of stick wigglers!
When leaving a light in normal driving, I can't imagine a big torquey 5.0 V8 running 3.73s would need much over 2-2.5K on the tack when letting out the clutch. Again, most of it is smoothness in coordinating how much you're engaging the clutch with how much additional throttle you're feeding in to move smoothly off the line. Basically just practice here as with any other physical skill.
As for when to shift. In daily commuting, probably under 4K rpm before the next higher gear is a good rule of thumb. With 412hp and 3.73s, you WILL squirt through first gear in an eye blink, especially if you aren't gently on the right pedal. Of course, if you're in a bit more of a hurry, holding your shifts at ever higher rpm is in order depending on how much of a "hurry" you're in -- 15 minutes late for your own wedding, shift her at 7K :-)
As for 5th vs 6th, go ahead into 6th as long as you aren't lugging the motor (very low revs and a lot of throttle to maintain speed.) 6th is there for a reason, a good highway cruising gear for better mileage and less noise and wear, so if you don't need a big burst of acceleration, run the highest gear you can in daily driving. In more spirited driving, you would want to keep the revs up a bit more into a meatier part of the power band, and more torque multiplication, so holding a lower gear might be in order.
Matching the motor revs to your gearbox revs is more art and practice than anything else. You'll need a little throttle but you don't want to be slipping the clutch (2-3 seconds) between shifts as that will wear out your clutch prematurely. I would just really focus on smoothness at this point -- aiming for quick but smooth and imperceptible shifts in daily driving -- and then expanding your shifting envelope into more aggressive driving, while maintaining that level of smoothness, as you become more adept with practice. Any monkey can slam and bang off shifts quickly, but being able to do so smoothly, even when driving hard, is the mark of a good driver.
Starting from a dead stop on a hill is just an amplified version of stopping from a flat road. You will need a bit more gas and clutch slip, but keep calm and smooth as you don't need to race the motor. Again, practice, practice.
As you may be noticing the gist here, driving a stick shift means you're driving the car much more so than an auto box, where you're more along for the ride. That is both the challenge and reward of a stick shift, being able to master it well and thus having that much more control over the car. I always say, even after 40 years, I have yet to execute the perfect shift -- mostly 95th percentile and above but never perfect. Thus I always have a challenger to improve myself and my driving each time I go to pick up a quart of milk and that makes such mundane trips that little bit less mundane.
Welcome to the world of stick wigglers!
6/25/10, 03:45 PM
#5
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you should probably use 6ht for freeway 65+ and 5th for 50-60 roads, that 6 speed is what i wish most the 2010's had i def feel the need for another gear in between 4th and 5th ratio on the 5 speed.
6/25/10, 03:47 PM
#6
MOTM Committee Member
wow you like to rev yours a bit hehe.
anyways, daily driving i try to keep it between 2500 and 3000 for normal shifting. i do give it gas first on all starts. i use 5th all the time for intown driving and cruising under 40-45 mph. i only use 1st if i come to a complete stop but shift to second normaly around 3k.
my car info is below
anyways, daily driving i try to keep it between 2500 and 3000 for normal shifting. i do give it gas first on all starts. i use 5th all the time for intown driving and cruising under 40-45 mph. i only use 1st if i come to a complete stop but shift to second normaly around 3k.
my car info is below
6/25/10, 03:54 PM
#7
V6 Member
I have the 3.73's and I skip gears all the time, I'll start in 2nd then shift to 5th, or go from 1st to 3rd then
6th. I let the rpms vary greatly right now(still breaking in), for the twisties I just keep it in 3rd. There is not really a wrong way to shift, just combinations of power/economy. some prefer more power all the time, some prefer economy all the time, some mix it up. I was on my way into work this morning starting in 2nd and a 4-banger beside me hammered it, so I did to, blew by him as I chirped shifting into 3rd. If it would of been an actual performance car beside me, I wouldn't have been in 2nd
6th. I let the rpms vary greatly right now(still breaking in), for the twisties I just keep it in 3rd. There is not really a wrong way to shift, just combinations of power/economy. some prefer more power all the time, some prefer economy all the time, some mix it up. I was on my way into work this morning starting in 2nd and a 4-banger beside me hammered it, so I did to, blew by him as I chirped shifting into 3rd. If it would of been an actual performance car beside me, I wouldn't have been in 2nd
6/25/10, 03:57 PM
#8
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For complete noobs I usually tell them to use the rule of 10mph per gear, so 1st for 0-10, 2nd for 10-20, 3rd for 20-30... and so on. Same thing goes for "which gear should I be in when I slow for a corner?" Over time you will begin to get a feel for when it is right to shift, and when you are needlessly spinning the engine. When you graduate to some more spirited driving/shifting, more revs are better (up to redline of course) that way when you change to the next higher gear, the RPM's are placed back into the meat of the powerband. If you are cruising along and want to accelerate hard, this is where some thinking comes in... you dont want to drop to too low of a gear because you will over-rev the engine (the rev limiter will not stop it). For a 5.0 car with 3.73 gears, the max speed for each gear is as follows: 1:42 2:64 3:91 4:114 5:154. So if you are cruising along at 65 MPH on the highway and wanted to accelerate hard, you would downshift to 3rd or 4th but never 2nd.
Rev matching is kind of like the advanced course in manual driving. Try to master the first before you attempt the second. It takes many years of practice to get it right, but will help to save some life on your clutch.
Rev matching is kind of like the advanced course in manual driving. Try to master the first before you attempt the second. It takes many years of practice to get it right, but will help to save some life on your clutch.
6/25/10, 04:05 PM
#9
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I've driven a stick on and off since learning to drive in 1986. Most of my cars have been manual, though in the past few years I've driven an auto. Looking now to buy a manual Mustang.
One thing I've noticed on my test drives is that when I shift gears, I have trouble doing it in a smooth way. Maybe this is because I'm rusty, but it's absolutely perceptible to others in the car that I've taken my foot off the gas and am shifting. This can be uncomfortable for my passengers - the car feels like it's jerking around a bit, slowing and than speeding up. Any advice on smoother shift technique? Or maybe it will all come back to me once I have my new car and I've been driving for a while.
One thing I've noticed on my test drives is that when I shift gears, I have trouble doing it in a smooth way. Maybe this is because I'm rusty, but it's absolutely perceptible to others in the car that I've taken my foot off the gas and am shifting. This can be uncomfortable for my passengers - the car feels like it's jerking around a bit, slowing and than speeding up. Any advice on smoother shift technique? Or maybe it will all come back to me once I have my new car and I've been driving for a while.
6/25/10, 04:14 PM
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I've driven a stick on and off since learning to drive in 1986. Most of my cars have been manual, though in the past few years I've driven an auto. Looking now to buy a manual Mustang.
One thing I've noticed on my test drives is that when I shift gears, I have trouble doing it in a smooth way. Maybe this is because I'm rusty, but it's absolutely perceptible to others in the car that I've taken my foot off the gas and am shifting. This can be uncomfortable for my passengers - the car feels like it's jerking around a bit, slowing and than speeding up. Any advice on smoother shift technique? Or maybe it will all come back to me once I have my new car and I've been driving for a while.
One thing I've noticed on my test drives is that when I shift gears, I have trouble doing it in a smooth way. Maybe this is because I'm rusty, but it's absolutely perceptible to others in the car that I've taken my foot off the gas and am shifting. This can be uncomfortable for my passengers - the car feels like it's jerking around a bit, slowing and than speeding up. Any advice on smoother shift technique? Or maybe it will all come back to me once I have my new car and I've been driving for a while.
6/25/10, 04:18 PM
#11
Legacy TMS Member
I've driven a stick on and off since learning to drive in 1986. Most of my cars have been manual, though in the past few years I've driven an auto. Looking now to buy a manual Mustang.
One thing I've noticed on my test drives is that when I shift gears, I have trouble doing it in a smooth way. Maybe this is because I'm rusty, but it's absolutely perceptible to others in the car that I've taken my foot off the gas and am shifting. This can be uncomfortable for my passengers - the car feels like it's jerking around a bit, slowing and than speeding up. Any advice on smoother shift technique? Or maybe it will all come back to me once I have my new car and I've been driving for a while.
One thing I've noticed on my test drives is that when I shift gears, I have trouble doing it in a smooth way. Maybe this is because I'm rusty, but it's absolutely perceptible to others in the car that I've taken my foot off the gas and am shifting. This can be uncomfortable for my passengers - the car feels like it's jerking around a bit, slowing and than speeding up. Any advice on smoother shift technique? Or maybe it will all come back to me once I have my new car and I've been driving for a while.
6/25/10, 05:10 PM
#12
MOTM Committee Member
Just time and practice, with each and every car. Each car is unique in its clutch response, throttle response, power curves, gearing, and a thousand other interacting variables that can effect how you shift. So just a bit of patience and practice and focus first on smoothness and then on speed.
I was absolutely embarrassed when I was test driving. Been several years since I'd driven a manual regularly. It'll come back and you'll be smooth again in no time. Having said that, I drove a Camaro after having the Mustang a couple months and was embarrassed all over again. Each clutch has it's own feel.
I've been driving stick since I first got my license and still stalled a coupled time leaving the dealer just due to the different clutch feel. After just two days of owner her now though and I'm shifting much smoother. Time and practice make a world of difference
6/25/10, 07:20 PM
#14
When you get really good...you'll learn how to shift up gears without even using the clutch...lol...
I definitely don't recommend anybody doing it and especially if you're just learning stick, but this is a little trick I like to show people. "Want to watch me shift without using the clutch"...and then they look at me like this when I do it...
I definitely don't recommend anybody doing it and especially if you're just learning stick, but this is a little trick I like to show people. "Want to watch me shift without using the clutch"...and then they look at me like this when I do it...
6/26/10, 09:47 AM
#15
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Thanks for the advice everyone. It sounds like I'm not the only one who's not a clutch expert and the best teacher is practice on the car you drive. I now am confident I know which gear is in the right range depending on my needs ( power/economy ) and the clutch engage is the finesse that I'll work on. I still feel like I'm letting it slip for a bit too long but that's just a matter of practice.
I'll post again to this thread if I have any additional questions. I am so glad I decided to get the manual, I may not be able to shift as fast as an auto but I'll be damned if I don't trust my judgement over a machine's.
I'll post again to this thread if I have any additional questions. I am so glad I decided to get the manual, I may not be able to shift as fast as an auto but I'll be damned if I don't trust my judgement over a machine's.
6/26/10, 01:37 PM
#16
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Ifs relative to throttle opening and what kind of mpg you want to get. Think about how an automatic shifts when you drive it. Light throttle = low rpm shifts. Heavy Throttle = High rpm shifts
At 20% thtrottle I take off in 2nd and shift at 2-3 1250 rpm, 3-4, 1375 rpm, 4-5 1500 rpm and 5-6 1750 rpm.
At 50% throttle double that.
At 100% throttle 6500+ rpm.
PS using the 20% throttle shift points I get 20-25 mpg in town on a 5.0.
At 20% thtrottle I take off in 2nd and shift at 2-3 1250 rpm, 3-4, 1375 rpm, 4-5 1500 rpm and 5-6 1750 rpm.
At 50% throttle double that.
At 100% throttle 6500+ rpm.
PS using the 20% throttle shift points I get 20-25 mpg in town on a 5.0.
6/26/10, 01:55 PM
#17
Legacy TMS Member
Hypermiler!
6/27/10, 10:03 AM
#18
This thread has been informational for me. I've driven a stick around, here and there but have had one car (an automatic civic) my whole life. This new stang I'm getting will be manual so it will be time for me to get really good on a stick and not just amateurish.
The one thing I'm still not clear on is downshifting from a higher gear when your RPMs are high. What do you want to avoid to ensure you don't screw up the engine? If someone could put some numbers that would be awesome (shift points).
Also, all you guys who start in 2nd, and go up from there or start on one gear, skip to another that isn't the next immediate gear, is this okay for the engine & clutch?
The one thing I'm still not clear on is downshifting from a higher gear when your RPMs are high. What do you want to avoid to ensure you don't screw up the engine? If someone could put some numbers that would be awesome (shift points).
Also, all you guys who start in 2nd, and go up from there or start on one gear, skip to another that isn't the next immediate gear, is this okay for the engine & clutch?
6/27/10, 10:11 AM
#19
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Starting from second will be harder on the clutch than starting from first, unless the car is going down hill. Skipping gears will have no effect on clutch life.
6/27/10, 10:29 AM
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The one thing I'm still not clear on is downshifting from a higher gear when your RPMs are high. What do you want to avoid to ensure you don't screw up the engine? If someone could put some numbers that would be awesome (shift points).
Also, all you guys who start in 2nd, and go up from there or start on one gear, skip to another that isn't the next immediate gear, is this okay for the engine & clutch?
Also, all you guys who start in 2nd, and go up from there or start on one gear, skip to another that isn't the next immediate gear, is this okay for the engine & clutch?
if you are getting ready to roll a race and want to be in the right gear i would only downshift to the gear that would put the motor around it's torque peak ~4000rpm
since you're getting 3.73s you may have to slip the clutch a little in 2nd but the motor is plenty powerful to skip gears when accelerating, i go from 3rd to 6th in my VW (drops from 2100 to 1100rpm) as long as i'm not going uphill and it pulls fine for putting around
it is ok for the powertrain as long as you don't lug the hell out of it - i don't think this motor will lug much anyways unless going uphill with the 3.73s