:nice:

Amen brother!

Not sure what I meant by overpowered anymore?? Maybe more like big/huge power.

What I meant by the statement is that hopefully Ford/SVT comes out with a lightweight Boss 281/330

I assume that you are trying to prove that the 427 SOHC put out more HP than the 385 family.

Sorry, but you are making an invalid comparison.

The 427 Cammer was NEVER sold in a production car. It was a race car crate engine with no emissions controls. You're comparing race engines to 385 street engines with emissions controls and street car tuning.

A fair comparison is the 427 cammer to a NASCAR race tune Boss 429, which put out well over 700 HP, more than the 427 cammer.

In CAN-AM form, an all aluminum 494 CID, fuel injected version of the Boss 429 it put out a reported 900 HP.

I agree with you James! I would like to see a Mustang with the soul of a street legal Trans Am Racer. You know, one that is the best handeling Mustang ever made with enough HP & gobs of Torque to make it through the turns like a true Trans Am Racer.

I know Ford can do it but I doubt they ever will :-D

I've seen differing reports of whether the Cammer was put in production cars, I have heard and will edit this post with the website information that the cammer came in 64 or 65 Galaxies.

I think with the proper factory backing, like the Boss 429 had, then the Cammer with it's free revving OHCs and smaller journals could have been equally as powerful.

Just think if NASCAR would have allowed the Cammer to run then maybe we would be talking about a DOHC Boss 429 right now. (And a lot of dead NASCAR racers)

The 427 Cammer was never sold in a production car. Sorry but this is an indisputable fact no matter what some idiot may have written in a magazine or on an internet site 40 years after the fact. Ford showed prototypes of 1966 full size LTDs with the 427 Cammer installed while it was trying to get NASCAR approval, but none were ever sold. You can order Martini reports on Ford production. You will never find any street cars sold with the 427 Cammer. It is possible that Ford sold some drag cars to its drag teams with the 427 Cammer, but they were abosultely not street legal cars.

Believe me I would have liked history to be different and have seen Ford to allowed to run the 427 Cammer in NASCAR, because it would have forced Ford to quickly fix its bad cam chain drive design.

However, I agree with NASCAR's decision. Back in the 1960s, any yahoo who wanted a Chrysler Hemi could have bought one. Chysler sold over 10,000 Hemis installed in street cars from 1964 - 1971.

Ford would have never done that. It was hard enough to buy a Ford with a real 427 side oiler, let alone a 427 Cammer. Ford was only interested in selling the minimum # of engines that NASCAR required, so Ford would have limited street car sales to the NASCAR mandated 500 / year. Ford was so tight with even the 427 side oiler that in fact most of the so called "427" Cobras really had 428CJs in them. To get a real 427 in a Cobra you had to order the S/C racing model. Another example of Ford cheaping out and not delivering real high HP engines to the public.

Ive read several stories about the 427 Ford never being designed as a street engine, but a race engine used in some passenger cars. As it was told, the 427 was designed needing closer tolerances than were econimicly doable on an assembly line.

As for being a dog well it did very well at drag strips in FX and other classes, though I am sure mods were done to improve on the OHC cam drive.

427 Cammer a dog? Define dog. Jack Chrisman, Eddie Schartmann and Don Nicholson ran Mercury Comets at the dragstrip equipped with the cammer in in '64. Nothing at the time could compete.

It was the SOHC 427 that powered George Montgomery's 33 Willys, a car that dominated the AA/GS. When he swithced to the 67 Mustang body, the Malco Gasser was pushing the dyno past 1200-hp on pump gas. He eventually switched to a twin-turbo 429 Boss motor, but he never quite achieved the success he had with the cammer.

Mickey Thompson fielded several Mustang funny cars, including some powered by the Boss 429, but the best season MT's team ever had was with Danny Ongais behind the wheel of the Blue Mach 1 powered by the 427 cammer.

It was definitely a motor with limited applications, ill-suited for life on the street, but on the strip, it was a monster. From the perspective of 40 years worth of technology and engineering improvements, it may look like a dog. But in 68, you wouldn't want to be at the christmas tree next to George Montgomery and his cammer.

It was a dog because of it's 2 mile long cam chain that would stretch with age, temperature and wear putting the 2 cyl banks out of time. The 427 cammer required constant tinkering to keep it running right.

Later on there was an aftermarket gear drive sold to get rid of the troublesome chain. I hate to admit my age, but in my younger years I did a lot of FE engine building and knew those monsters inside and out.

The other issue with the FE was the limits in it's bore spacing. Once the Boss 429 got going pretty much all the serious Ford racers ended up switching to the Boss 429.

So the cammer was a dog because it was hard to work on? OK, if that's you definition of a dog, so be it.

Yes, I've seen the timing chain replaced with a gear system. (I think it was a marine application the engine was prepped for, not drag strip.)

Yes, it was difficult to work with. Yes, time has passed it by. One could surely hope that after 40 years, engine technology would have produced more efficent and more powerful motors. (Though I'm not sure they have gotten any easier to work with.)

V10 - you probably remember Connie Kalitta' Bounty Hunter with the 429 (awesome machine). If you are old enough to remember that, then you are probably old enough to remember the original Bounty Hunter, the one Kalitta used to establish his reputation was powered by the 427 cammer. In 1967, he became the only Top Fuel driver to have won every major drag racing associations' season-opening event by winning Winter Nationals staged by AHRA, NHRA and NASCAR.

Too bad he was running such a dog.

Hey check this out

Boss Engine??

Excellent, thanks James!! A Boss 6.2 would be sweet, as long as it doesn't weigh a ton and can rev like the original Boss 302's, I'd definitely buy one!! :banana: :banana:

All this whining over the independent rear suspension is the primary reason I hardly post on this forum anymore.

The Mustang will not be recieving an independent rear suspension until it gets a complete head-to-toe platform re-engineering, not likely to happen until at least 2010.

Even if they bolted in a few more components, like the last-generation Mustang Cobra, would it really be THAT much better than the GT-500's live axle? Keep in mind that the suspension geometry of the Fox platform was pretty bad, hence virtually any change was an improvement.

Make no mistake, bolting in an IRS is completely pointless when you have a good geometry with the live axle, which is integrated into the platform itself.

If an independent rear suspension isn't engineered into the platform to begin with, there is little reason to believe that it would really do much good.

If you want IRS so bad, then hold out for the Challenger or Camaro, which I'm pretty sure won't be that much better, even with IRS.

Spare the rest of us the whining and hand-wringing (this especially goes for rhumb).

It's good to hear that the Hurricane hasn't been lost after all. I would still like to see Ford work on a cutting-edge, smaller 90-degree V8, though.

:nice:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Spare the rest of us the whining and hand-wringing (this especially goes for rhumb).[/b][/quote]
Ohhh, seems I struck a nerve! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

And the nerve of me discussing, quite rationally I would think, things mechanical relating to a Mustang on a Mustang performance board. Next thing you know, people will start discussing engine specs, trannies, tires ... who knows where it will end ... horrors.

I do try to rise above mere whinning and frame my arguments cogently and without recourse to ad hominum put downs and the like, though I might frame my arguments a bit tartly at times (don't want to have too much of a dry engineering flavor). While some may not agree with me, they are certainly welcome to dispute my points and present their own better ones. However, it seems some may simply not want to here opposing viewpoints or well considered criticisms and feel somehow put upon to even be exposed to them.

I look upon this board as being a bit more discerning than a mere cheering section for whatever Ford does or produces. I'll certainly laud them for the much they have gotten right with the Stang, but I'll just as vociferously call them to task for those I feel fell short of the mark on. Ford does apparently pay some attention to these boards, so I think a robust and well thought out discussion of ideas and criticisms may, in the end, produce a better Stang by giving Ford the unvarnished customer feedback that would lead to such things. Stifling or dismissing honest and well considered criticisms and suggestions will only lead to a self-satisfied complacency rather than a clear idea of how to better the product.

I welcome any and all well thought out disputations of my arguments and have often amended my thinking as a result of them. But I will not withdraw from any such discussions simply because somebody doesn't want to hear them for whatever reason.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(grabbergreen @ February 1, 2006, 12:39 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Make no mistake, bolting in an IRS is completely pointless when you have a good geometry with the live axle, which is integrated into the platform itself.

If an independent rear suspension isn't engineered into the platform to begin with, there is little reason to believe that it would really do much good.

If you want IRS so bad, then hold out for the Challenger or Camaro, which I'm pretty sure won't be that much better, even with IRS.
[/b][/quote]

Considering the Mustang started from a platform that already had IRS in it, Ford had to engineer the SRA for all the straight-line-only fans and bean-counters. So, I am not exactly seeing your point. Sure, a bolt-in hack job like the IRS in the last Cobra is not necessarially a good thing, but are you suggesting Ford is not qualified enough to put together a proper IRS system? I would give them a bit more credit than that. Especially since the platform it came from was designed for it in the first place.

And none of this "but they won in Grand-Am" stuff either. 1) that is on smoothly paved race tracks, NOT the cobbled streets we drive on where IRS becomes important and 2) after the gearing change on the Mustang to curtail their excessive hp advantage, the Turner BMW boys won three in a row and the Mustangs started to fade.

As to the Camaro/Challenger thing, IRS will probably be a determining factor for some people. I just hope Ford can react in time to get a proper IRS in the car by then (and not old Cobra hack-job or Monaro/GTO semi-trailing arms either). They have been testing it, they should have it all engineered, so what's the problem? Otherwise, I just may have to do the unthinkable.... visit a Chevy dealership (gasp).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rampant @ February 3, 2006, 8:41 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
And none of this "but they won in Grand-Am" stuff either. 1) that is on smoothly paved race tracks, NOT the cobbled streets we drive on where IRS becomes important and 2) after the gearing change on the Mustang to curtail their excessive hp advantage, the Turner BMW boys won three in a row and the Mustangs started to fade.
[/b][/quote]

Thank you, I've been trying to make these exact points.

1. In a street car, IRS is not about handling, it's about improving comfort and drivability.

2. If I counted correctly, more Grand Am races were won last year by IRS cars than SLA cars. By the way, can anyone tell me what car won the Grand Am race in Daytona this year?

I've sat here and read the entire thread and amazingly, I don't see where anyone got the obvious choice for the BOSS powerplant. The '03/'04 production (emissions cert, all parts on the shelf, ready to go) Cobra 4.6 which of course as we all know can be tuned with VERY little work to produce about 425HP would be the PERFECT motor for the BOSS. I mean, there's no reason to hold it back now with the 475HP 5.4 in the GT500, so let that baby lose on this car. The trick of course will be to keep the price sub $35K. I'm willing to bet that even at say $37K, it will sell like h.. well, you know.

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/04.gif[/img]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(V10 @ February 5, 2006, 8:34 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Thank you, I've been trying to make these exact points.

1. In a street car, IRS is not about handling, it's about improving comfort and drivability.

2. If I counted correctly, more Grand Am races were won last year by IRS cars than SLA cars. By the way, can anyone tell me what car won the Grand Am race in Daytona this year?
[/b][/quote]


Word, something we agree on. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrinjester.gif[/img]

#44 Porsche 996

What do you know the car that got a positive competition adjustment for this year. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(97svtgoin05gt @ February 5, 2006, 8:43 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I've sat here and read the entire thread and amazingly, I don't see where anyone got the obvious choice for the BOSS powerplant. The '03/'04 production (emissions cert, all parts on the shelf, ready to go) Cobra 4.6 which of course as we all know can be tuned with VERY little work to produce about 425HP would be the PERFECT motor for the BOSS. I mean, there's no reason to hold it back now with the 475HP 5.4 in the GT500, so let that baby lose on this car. The trick of course will be to keep the price sub $35K. I'm willing to bet that even at say $37K, it will sell like h.. well, you know.

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/04.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]

It's because a supercharger does not belong on a race car, which is what the Boss really was.