V10

Seems to me that Ford can easily reach into it's parts bin and create several SE Mustangs for very little $$.

Look @ what is sitting on the shelf right now not being used:

03-04 Mach 1 4.6L DOHC N/A
03-04 Cobra 4.6L DOHC S/C
01-04 Navigator 5.4L DOHC N/A

Plus there is the F-150 / Navigator 5.4 SOHC 3V N/A

Or they could bolt a S/C on the 4.6 3V

There is a lot of room for SEs inbetween the 300 HP GT and the 475 HP GT500. 350 HP and 400 HP SE's are no brainers.

softbatch

They need to bolt the VCT onto the 4V Ford GT Heads on the stock 05 shortblock. Wider wheels, performance springs & shocks.

Good to go

MustangFanatic

Agreed, there are lots of options that Ford could utilize for the next SE using existing parts. My personal preference would be for a more aggressive version of the Mach I engine in a car set up for handling and braking...

softbatch

GTJOHN and MustangFanatic

hi5.0

If Ford were to make a future Boss (302 or whatever eng. displacement) Mustang - first and foremost, they should make it lighter by say, 200 lbs., add a 6-spd., and improve weight distribution by throwing the battery in the trunk. Creative parts bin raiding is the way to go to keep costs down. However, i thought i heard that the next SE is supposed to be a California Special? (not exactly what i had in mind for a SE)

MustangFanatic

And lovin' every minute of it!!

V10

The 4V heads seem to be fading away. Other than the GT, upcoming GT-500 and some Aussie Falcon models, what FoMoCo street vehicles use the 4V heads?

Aviator - discontinued
Cobra - out of production until June 06
Continental - discontinued
Ford GT - Limited production, going away after 2007
Lightning - discontinued
Mach 1 - discontinued
Mark VIII - discontinued
Marauder - discontinued
Navigator - now uses 3V heads

With almost NO FoMoCo models still using the 4V heads I doubt if Ford will spend the $$ needed to put VCT on the 4V heads or spend any mroe $$ to further improve them. The 4V heads will probably end up as SVT only.


I don't expect the CA Special to be much more than decals, paint and leather. I highly doubt it will have a higher HP engine.

MustangFanatic

I would agree that 4V heads will likely become SVT-only offerings which is terrific despite their weight penalty. The other model that will have 4V heads will be the Sport Trac Adrenalin which will have the '03 - '04 Cobra engine.

grabbergreen

I guess you could, but a shorter deck height would be pretty nice. It would also mean less weight up front, too.

Yeah, I really wish Ford would make a new, more flexible engine family. The very premise for developing the MOD fell by the wayside almost immediately...

GTJOHN

Softbatch. Weird? Why do you think I am "weird"? How much time and money do you expect Ford to spend on an SE project?
Your only going to get so much for a Mustang that cost between $29k - $35k!

softbatch

I said Werd, slang for I agree

V10

I knew I had forgotten about another vehicle using the 4V heads. But the Adrenalin is another limited production low volume model.

Interesting that SVT said it was through with the 03-04 Cobra engine. KarKraft was selling off extra 04 Cobra engines real cheap, but it's back.

To me it would make sense to also put the 03-04 Cobra engine into a Mustang SE, maybe the GT-350. SVT's claim to fame would be 4V - S/C engines.

MustangFanatic

It certainly would make perfect sense and be the "little brother" (if you can call a 400+ hp car little!!) to the big dog GT500. Of course since it makes so much sense, Ford probably won't do it. Still we should lobby Ford to make it happen.

softbatch

Personnally I don't think it would make sense, the GT350 and Boss 302 were good handling representations of race cars. Putting an heavy Cast Iron engine in the front end nomatter what the power is going to take that aspect away fairly easily.

softbatch

Or they could take an idea from the Chevy LS engines and bore the heck out of the 4.6.

MustangFanatic

You are correct, and I have stated several times that at GT350 or Boss should have NA HP and be focused on provided a totally balanced package: power, handling and braking.

However, I know Ford is cash strapped and the "terminator" engine is sitting on the shelf, already fully developed and certified. Sure, I'd love to have a sweet all-new all-aluminum 5.0L 4V engine producing 375+ in either a Boss or GT350 with a 6 spd trans, IRS, the GT500 brakes and some of the same styling cues from the GT500 but the facts are Ford couldn't produce such a car and keep it price competitive. It would likely wind up costing more than a GT500 and I doubt Ford would consider that even if there was interest in such a model.

Ford could offer those features and keep the price in line but only through the use of an existing engine. That really only leaves two logical choices, the '03 - '04 Cobra engine or the '03 - '04 Mach I engine. As much as I love the Mach I engine, Ford would have to expend some engineering effort to get the HP up to at least 375. If that could be done effectively, that would be my first choice. However, we all know the "terminator" engine is a serious piece making much more than the advertised 390 hp, so it would be a simple, low cost process to install it in either a GT350 or Boss leaving time and development dollars for other areas of the car such as the IRS, etc.

As much as I hate to admit it, life is a constant compromise and I'd rather have all the other features we all desire in the next SE by compromising in the engine department and utilizing an existing engine. Although I hardly think a 390 hp engine is a compromise

I do think Ford could offset the extra weight from the "terminator" engine by using as many lightweight non-engine components as possible.

softbatch

Hand Built, Bored to 370 for high rpm 5L w/ 4V or 3V heads would only cost 2 or 3k more and lighten the front end some.

I would lean more towards the 3V head because I think you can get more average TQ and HP out of it because of the VCT.




<!--QuoteBegin-Road and Track: Building the Beast C6 ZO6
GM has stayed with this engine's 4.40-in. cylinder-bore-center spacing for their small blocks to this day.[/quote]

This basically means that the Corvette ZO6 has .450" spacing between cylinders. I can't find the borespacing on the mod motor but your not near that small with a 3.70 Bore on the mod motors. (I think)

BTW our prayers have been answered the 2006 Mustang GT come with a 6L engine according to the Ford Website figure it out from the bore and stroke Ford Mustang Performance Specs

Nevermind the 2006 engine size stuff my calculator is messed up

V10

It cannot be done with a Mod Motor. I belive that the bore spacing is 100mm on the Mod, which is 3.93"

Ford spend a lot of $$ trying to develop a larger bore version of the Mod Motor. What they came up with is the 5.0 Cammer. But its 94mm dia bore ( 3.70" ) does not meet Ford's durability requirements for street cars. You may note that for $14,000 the Cammer really doesn't have a warranty. I'm sure that Ford's expectation is Cammers will not be put into daily drivers.

I have also heard that the largest possible bore that will meet Ford's durability requirements is 92mm ( 3.62" ), but it is questionable whether that small increase in bore: 1.8mm ( .071" ) is worth the added cost.

A 92mm bore and a 93mm stroke gives 4.95L - 301.81 CID so there's your Boss 302. But given Ford's precarious financial situation, I'm not holding my breath.

For some SEs that could be done quickly with minimal cost:

GT-350 - 03-04 Cobra 4.6, 4V, S/C
Boss - Cobra R 5.4L, 4V, N/A
Mach 1 - 5.4L, 3V, N/A - with different tuning from F150/Navigator

softbatch

A 3.937 borespacing according Livernois 5L Modular in 5.0 Magwith a 3.70 bore equals out to about .474" between cylinders. That is more than the ZO6's 4.50.

Of course time will tell how long the ZO6 engine lasts.

V10

You seem to have doubled the wall thickness:

3.937" = 100mm, which is what I said in my prior e-mail.

3.937 - 3.70 = 0.237" of material between the bores.

3.937 - 3.87 = only .067" of material left between the bore liners.