Actually, 20% - 30% is much too high for drivetrain losses. Usually 15%-17%.

Assuming 15% losses, 302 rwhp = 355hp at the crank

302/0.85 = 355

I think the biggest problem with both SVT and Shelby making uprated Mustangs will be who gets to use the Cobra name. I think they should line up the prototypes down the block from the factory and burn some rubber. Whichever car wins, gets the title Cobra... :idea:

Cold, man, that was cold! :P Power went out here, had to wait till today to see this. There supposedly will be a new F-body in 07' or 08'... Right about the same time the shelby is due. Should make for some interesting comparison shopping... ;)

Now that we know there's no special edition til at least MY2007 (probaby MY2008) this could well be a new engine for those cars. I doubt it is for the Cobra -- I still think that will get DOHC 5.4L. But its possible they will move the SE (Shelby, etc) to a blown 3V.

OR...

It could easily be them testing a new Roush (or even Saleen) motor, or just testing the blower. When my father worked in the dyno lab in Dearborn, he spoke about them having Roush motors in the labs. Roush develops their powertrains closely with Ford (and vice-versa sometimes, as we well know), and Saleen may be too.

The aluminum block won't be as strong, that's why the 03/04s aren't Al.

Also, why would it be physically smaller, and cost less to make? [/b][/quote]
The aluminum block on the 05, 4.6L 3V engine is a new casting (not the same as the 03 / 04 Mach 1). In one of the many press releases Fprd said that 05 AL block is stronger than the old iron block it replaces and is 70 - 80lb ligher than the irom block.

The 550+ HP Ford GT engine (5.4L) uses an aluminum block. So if and aluminum block it will handle 550+ HP, it should have no trouble handling 440 HP for a new SVT Cobra engine.


The reason why the all aluminum 4.6L 3V will cost lest to manufacture and be smaller is that (compared to the 03 / 04 SVT Cobra engine):

1. 2 cams instead of 4 cams
2. 24 valves, valve springs, keepers, rocker arms, etc. vs 32 each on the DOHC engine.
3. The 3V heads are physically much smaller than the 4V heads. In fact the 3V heads are physically smaller than the old 2V heads. (30 - 40 lb less than a pair of the 4V heads)

Not that I don't believe you, but I was under the impression this was the same block currently being used on the 4.6L motors in the 2004 Mach I, Aviator, Explorer, Expedition, and Marauder (if/when they've finally switched that last one from the old Cobra casting).

I hope you are right - I hope they did reengineer the 4.6L block for more strength. As you point out, the 5.4L AL block was designed for big boost from the get-go, so they could just use the same design employed there. Although there's been plenty of debate that the current 4.6L AL block never had a problem with boost to begin with, but that instead they just wanted to keep costs down on the 03/04 Cobra.

I think that it's obvious that the Mustang SVT Cobra is going to be replaced by another name, so Ford can bring out the Cobra concept roadster. I doubt that the next SE Mustang will have "Shelby" anywhere in the name, because I think the Cobra concept roadster will be named along the lines of "the Ford Shelby Cobra." Too many people are a little slow, and will be easily confused by having a Mustang Cobra and a Cobra, or a Shelby Mustang and Shelby Cobra.

The engine they're testing is most likely for the next SE Mustang. (Remember when Ford was destroying supercharged aluminum blocked 4.6's when they we're developing the '03 Cobra?) I don't think they're going to go with an old name (BOSS, Mach 1, GT 350 etc.) for the Mustang SVT Cobra replacement. My thinking is that if they're aiming at BMW with the next SE, which is a new competitor and market, they'll give the new edition a brand new name. They'll save the Boss, Mach 1 etc. names for naturally aspirated and more retro-themed special editions, which will come after the "Mustang SVT Cobra that won't be called Mustang SVT Cobra anymore" SE. Then again I could be entirely wrong!

Possible. Even likely perhaps. But as we've pointed out before, Ford currently has the Ford Mustang GT and Ford GT, so conceivably they could have the Ford Mustang Cobra and Ford Cobra.

Keep in mind that Shelby and Ford have already strongly suggested that there will be an entire line of Shelby branded cars in the near future, including possibilities like a Shelby Focus and "Futura". Its has been further speculated that these cars would be engineered, built and marketed by SVT as "SVT Shelby" or "Shelby SVT" vehicles.

Actually, I doubt that. I would think they would have done that before deciding this was to be the mustang motor. They know it will get supercharged, surely they would have tested that long before the final decision on this motor.

I think they are test engines for an upcoming car. [/b][/quote]
They were blowing up motor after motor for the last cobra, they only decided the final setup at the very end and switched to the iron block just before production.

Or so the legend goes.

But for a modular block to let-go, from 400hp? Everything we've seen in the aftermarket just leaves you scratching your head there. What exactly were the nature of these failures? No one is saying. No doubt the final setup was chosen just before production, but the why's of that decision will probably be debated for years to come.

A 3valve 4.6L engine will most likely be used for the first Shelby IMO.

If this engine is performing as well as many have said, then 440hp is definately attainable. It is cheaper for Ford to use the 3 valve engine versus the 4 valve 4.6L which has limited application especially when the 3 valve is supposed to flow just as well.

Now, any guesses as to the cost of this SE? Maybe 38k?

We've been over this tons of times but a 440hp car isn't Mach level. I'm assuming those cars will come later. Possibly a 5.4L Mach or 5.0L Boss with 375hp maybe in 08?

Then again dan...300hp+ for a gt, would have been thought to be insane years prior.

Especially with a huge gap between 300hp GT and 500 (rumoured) hp Cobra.
Wanna bet if its pushing 440..its Rated at 400?

300hp GT (closer to 325-340)
400hp SE (closer to 450)
500hp Cobra (closer to 550)

:drools:

:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Bring it on, Ford.

If you build it, I will come (and buy one).

Or so the legend goes.

But for a modular block to let-go, from 400hp? Everything we've seen in the aftermarket just leaves you scratching your head there. What exactly were the nature of these failures? No one is saying. No doubt the final setup was chosen just before production, but the why's of that decision will probably be debated for years to come. [/b][/quote]
Thats what happened. They tried everything they could with the 01 cobra block and they all broke. Kinda-sorta like how everyone that puts more then 9lbs of boost on a stock one breaks now. Go to SVTperformance.com. Just about everyone with a blown(real boost) 96-01 cobra is on their second motor.

The most efficient way to make more then 04 power for an SVT is to go 3v 5.4

Possible. Even likely perhaps. But as we've pointed out before, Ford currently has the Ford Mustang GT and Ford GT, so conceivably they could have the Ford Mustang Cobra and Ford Cobra.

[/quote]
well maybe they will have both Ford Cobra is the roadster......and Mustang Cobra is mustang with cobra roadster engine :banana:

I agree it could be, but just think what it would cost. We're not talking today's GT --> Mach 1 increase.

[quote]Originally posted by V10@May. 21st, 2004, 7:15 AM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by V10,May. 20th, 2004, 8:39 PM

The aluminum block on the 05, 4.6L 3V engine is a new casting (not the same as the 03 / 04 Mach 1).

The 550+ HP Ford GT engine (5.4L) uses an aluminum block. So if and aluminum block it will handle 550+ HP, it should have no trouble handling 440 HP for a new SVT Cobra engine.


The reason why the all aluminum 4.6L 3V will cost lest to manufacture and be smaller is that (compared to the 03 / 04 SVT Cobra engine):

1. 2 cams instead of 4 cams
2. 24 valves, valve springs, keepers, rocker arms, etc. vs 32 each on the DOHC engine.
3. The 3V heads are physically much smaller than the 4V heads. In fact the 3V heads are physically smaller than the old 2V heads. (30 - 40 lb less than a pair of the 4V heads)

---

That I did not know. I was under the assumption that it would be the same. Do you kno this for sure?Afterall, why go through another expense to redesign and build new molds.

Yes, the Ford GT has an Al block, but its a different block/casting.

When talking about cost, I thought we were just referring to the block casting. Overall, I agree, less components, less costs.

hmm, sounds good dude. :-D

o ya and
:pics:

Not that I don't believe you, but I was under the impression this was the same block currently being used on the 4.6L motors in the 2004 Mach I, Aviator, Explorer, Expedition, and Marauder (if/when they've finally switched that last one from the old Cobra casting).

I hope you are right - I hope they did reengineer the 4.6L block for more strength. As you point out, the 5.4L AL block was designed for big boost from the get-go, so they could just use the same design employed there. Although there's been plenty of debate that the current 4.6L AL block never had a problem with boost to begin with, but that instead they just wanted to keep costs down on the 03/04 Cobra. [/b][/quote]
The following is from the Ford press releases back in January. They imply that the block is new but do not specifially say so. IIRC someone here on The MustangSource gave a link to an article, could have been in MM&FF that had a lengthy interview with Thai-Tang that specifially talked about what parts in the 3V 4.6 were new and the block was one of them. Again IIRC they talked about the ribs in the V of the block being strengthened.