Nextdoor neighbour works on the v8 line at Essex Engine Plant . Said they assembled four Mustang 4.6 3 valve motors with superchargers as test engines today. they were destined for the motor lab and rumoured to be cranking out 440 horsepower. Could this be a new GT option,aspecial edition or even a new cobra engine?

That could very well be for a Shelby edition, i think they will go without forced induction for the special editions like the Mach1 or Boss...If i only knew what car it's for and when it would be release, you can bet you a$$ that i would wait for it to come out.

If Wildo is right, and we have no reason to doubt him, this is for the Shelby which will replace the SVT Cobra.

Nice numbers! The WS6 I got is only rated at 325hp. Though on dyno day with other F-body guys it only pulled 302 at the rear wheels. Sure there's some loss from the crank to the wheels but I should have pulled better numbers. It was running way too lean, 15 to 1 @ 5200 rpms, which is where she is supposed to be pulling max hp. In the shop next week to find out why and fix it. Other guys that just switched the intake box and exhaust were pulling around 345hp at the rear wheels though. That will be my first mod this summer. Torque is supposed to be 350 lbs ft, I pulled 329. If they drop that motor in the shelby's, their gonna be opening a big can of woop a$$ on the street! Now I remember why I wanted to wait for a shelby... ;) There was a guy at one of the F-body meets that had a supercharger on his WS6, dyno'ed at 485 hp! There are ways to get more out of these... :) One of the other guys did a cam and heads and was up around 395 hp.

302 at the rear wheels means it's putting out more than 325 at the crank. A 20-30% loss is the norm from the crank to the wheels, I believe.

Maybe they were under rated??? ;) Like I said, these guys that just did their intake and exhaust were in the mid 340's. I was expecting to reach the teens until we discovered the lean problem. Thank god the ECM retards things to avoid detonation... :o

Still, not bad numbers for bone stock.

Man, I am having a major Mustang Jones. All you guys ordering your cars, all the talk about Shelby, SVT, Roush, Saleen, etc. I am holding out for an SVT (or Shelby). It is driving me nuts. This news just makes it that much stronger. 440 from the factory. Should be easy to tweak it up to 500 with simple inexpensive mods. I can't wait. <takes another valium and walks away from the computer>

wouldnt the Romeo plant handle the SVT motors :dunno:

they also may just be trying to blow up the gt's 3v motors

they also may just be trying to blow up the gt's 3v motors [/b][/quote]
makes sense. To see how much abuse they can handle. I wonder what they got from it?

The LS-1 F-bodies are definitely underrated and aren't as detuned as you'd think. They just don't turn in as good of track times as LS-1 Corvettes because of weight, drag, suspension, gearing, etc.

The LS-1 F-bodies are definitely underrated and aren't as detuned as you'd think. They just don't turn in as good of track times as LS-1 Corvettes because of weight, drag, suspension, gearing, etc. [/b][/quote]
How do the 05 F-bodies stack up?? :-D

I'm with you .... :hiding: until 2007

dont mean to be rude...but

NO SHELBY WILL EVER REPLACE THE SVT Cobra!

they also may just be trying to blow up the gt's 3v motors [/b][/quote]
Actually, I doubt that. I would think they would have done that before deciding this was to be the mustang motor. They know it will get supercharged, surely they would have tested that long before the final decision on this motor.

I think they are test engines for an upcoming car.

I agree that they shouldn't replace the Cobra with a Shelby badged car. I think there will be a Cobra and the Shelby will be the SE. If they do, however, replace the Cobra with a Shelby, that will not stop me from buying one. I'll buy whatever the hottest Mustang is (short of Cobra R. Love to have one, but, I want to be able to drive mine more than I would an "R").

It makes sense, Ford has said the present DOHC S/C engine out of production and never will return.

Do you know if the 3V has an aluminum block?

A 3V, SOHC, aluminum block with a twin screw S/C would make a lot of sense. It would make more HP than the old SVT Cobra engine, weight at least 100 lb less, would be physically smaller and cost less to manufacture.

How do the 05 F-bodies stack up?? :-D [/b][/quote]
okay, enoguh with the joke. you know they stopped making the f bodies in 2003

The aluminum block won't be as strong, that's why the 03/04s aren't Al.

Also, why would it be physically smaller, and cost less to make?

How do the 05 F-bodies stack up?? :-D [/b][/quote]
Yeah, and where's Nazi Germany now?

Same point made. Old history, live in the now.

Actually, 20% - 30% is much too high for drivetrain losses. Usually 15%-17%.

Assuming 15% losses, 302 rwhp = 355hp at the crank

302/0.85 = 355

I think the biggest problem with both SVT and Shelby making uprated Mustangs will be who gets to use the Cobra name. I think they should line up the prototypes down the block from the factory and burn some rubber. Whichever car wins, gets the title Cobra... :idea:

Cold, man, that was cold! :P Power went out here, had to wait till today to see this. There supposedly will be a new F-body in 07' or 08'... Right about the same time the shelby is due. Should make for some interesting comparison shopping... ;)

Now that we know there's no special edition til at least MY2007 (probaby MY2008) this could well be a new engine for those cars. I doubt it is for the Cobra -- I still think that will get DOHC 5.4L. But its possible they will move the SE (Shelby, etc) to a blown 3V.

OR...

It could easily be them testing a new Roush (or even Saleen) motor, or just testing the blower. When my father worked in the dyno lab in Dearborn, he spoke about them having Roush motors in the labs. Roush develops their powertrains closely with Ford (and vice-versa sometimes, as we well know), and Saleen may be too.

The aluminum block won't be as strong, that's why the 03/04s aren't Al.

Also, why would it be physically smaller, and cost less to make? [/b][/quote]
The aluminum block on the 05, 4.6L 3V engine is a new casting (not the same as the 03 / 04 Mach 1). In one of the many press releases Fprd said that 05 AL block is stronger than the old iron block it replaces and is 70 - 80lb ligher than the irom block.

The 550+ HP Ford GT engine (5.4L) uses an aluminum block. So if and aluminum block it will handle 550+ HP, it should have no trouble handling 440 HP for a new SVT Cobra engine.


The reason why the all aluminum 4.6L 3V will cost lest to manufacture and be smaller is that (compared to the 03 / 04 SVT Cobra engine):

1. 2 cams instead of 4 cams
2. 24 valves, valve springs, keepers, rocker arms, etc. vs 32 each on the DOHC engine.
3. The 3V heads are physically much smaller than the 4V heads. In fact the 3V heads are physically smaller than the old 2V heads. (30 - 40 lb less than a pair of the 4V heads)

Not that I don't believe you, but I was under the impression this was the same block currently being used on the 4.6L motors in the 2004 Mach I, Aviator, Explorer, Expedition, and Marauder (if/when they've finally switched that last one from the old Cobra casting).

I hope you are right - I hope they did reengineer the 4.6L block for more strength. As you point out, the 5.4L AL block was designed for big boost from the get-go, so they could just use the same design employed there. Although there's been plenty of debate that the current 4.6L AL block never had a problem with boost to begin with, but that instead they just wanted to keep costs down on the 03/04 Cobra.

I think that it's obvious that the Mustang SVT Cobra is going to be replaced by another name, so Ford can bring out the Cobra concept roadster. I doubt that the next SE Mustang will have "Shelby" anywhere in the name, because I think the Cobra concept roadster will be named along the lines of "the Ford Shelby Cobra." Too many people are a little slow, and will be easily confused by having a Mustang Cobra and a Cobra, or a Shelby Mustang and Shelby Cobra.

The engine they're testing is most likely for the next SE Mustang. (Remember when Ford was destroying supercharged aluminum blocked 4.6's when they we're developing the '03 Cobra?) I don't think they're going to go with an old name (BOSS, Mach 1, GT 350 etc.) for the Mustang SVT Cobra replacement. My thinking is that if they're aiming at BMW with the next SE, which is a new competitor and market, they'll give the new edition a brand new name. They'll save the Boss, Mach 1 etc. names for naturally aspirated and more retro-themed special editions, which will come after the "Mustang SVT Cobra that won't be called Mustang SVT Cobra anymore" SE. Then again I could be entirely wrong!

Possible. Even likely perhaps. But as we've pointed out before, Ford currently has the Ford Mustang GT and Ford GT, so conceivably they could have the Ford Mustang Cobra and Ford Cobra.

Keep in mind that Shelby and Ford have already strongly suggested that there will be an entire line of Shelby branded cars in the near future, including possibilities like a Shelby Focus and "Futura". Its has been further speculated that these cars would be engineered, built and marketed by SVT as "SVT Shelby" or "Shelby SVT" vehicles.

Actually, I doubt that. I would think they would have done that before deciding this was to be the mustang motor. They know it will get supercharged, surely they would have tested that long before the final decision on this motor.

I think they are test engines for an upcoming car. [/b][/quote]
They were blowing up motor after motor for the last cobra, they only decided the final setup at the very end and switched to the iron block just before production.

Or so the legend goes.

But for a modular block to let-go, from 400hp? Everything we've seen in the aftermarket just leaves you scratching your head there. What exactly were the nature of these failures? No one is saying. No doubt the final setup was chosen just before production, but the why's of that decision will probably be debated for years to come.

A 3valve 4.6L engine will most likely be used for the first Shelby IMO.

If this engine is performing as well as many have said, then 440hp is definately attainable. It is cheaper for Ford to use the 3 valve engine versus the 4 valve 4.6L which has limited application especially when the 3 valve is supposed to flow just as well.

Now, any guesses as to the cost of this SE? Maybe 38k?

We've been over this tons of times but a 440hp car isn't Mach level. I'm assuming those cars will come later. Possibly a 5.4L Mach or 5.0L Boss with 375hp maybe in 08?

Then again dan...300hp+ for a gt, would have been thought to be insane years prior.

Especially with a huge gap between 300hp GT and 500 (rumoured) hp Cobra.
Wanna bet if its pushing 440..its Rated at 400?

300hp GT (closer to 325-340)
400hp SE (closer to 450)
500hp Cobra (closer to 550)

:drools:

:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Bring it on, Ford.

If you build it, I will come (and buy one).

Or so the legend goes.

But for a modular block to let-go, from 400hp? Everything we've seen in the aftermarket just leaves you scratching your head there. What exactly were the nature of these failures? No one is saying. No doubt the final setup was chosen just before production, but the why's of that decision will probably be debated for years to come. [/b][/quote]
Thats what happened. They tried everything they could with the 01 cobra block and they all broke. Kinda-sorta like how everyone that puts more then 9lbs of boost on a stock one breaks now. Go to SVTperformance.com. Just about everyone with a blown(real boost) 96-01 cobra is on their second motor.

The most efficient way to make more then 04 power for an SVT is to go 3v 5.4

Possible. Even likely perhaps. But as we've pointed out before, Ford currently has the Ford Mustang GT and Ford GT, so conceivably they could have the Ford Mustang Cobra and Ford Cobra.

[/quote]
well maybe they will have both Ford Cobra is the roadster......and Mustang Cobra is mustang with cobra roadster engine :banana:

I agree it could be, but just think what it would cost. We're not talking today's GT --> Mach 1 increase.

[quote]Originally posted by V10@May. 21st, 2004, 7:15 AM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by V10,May. 20th, 2004, 8:39 PM

The aluminum block on the 05, 4.6L 3V engine is a new casting (not the same as the 03 / 04 Mach 1).

The 550+ HP Ford GT engine (5.4L) uses an aluminum block. So if and aluminum block it will handle 550+ HP, it should have no trouble handling 440 HP for a new SVT Cobra engine.


The reason why the all aluminum 4.6L 3V will cost lest to manufacture and be smaller is that (compared to the 03 / 04 SVT Cobra engine):

1. 2 cams instead of 4 cams
2. 24 valves, valve springs, keepers, rocker arms, etc. vs 32 each on the DOHC engine.
3. The 3V heads are physically much smaller than the 4V heads. In fact the 3V heads are physically smaller than the old 2V heads. (30 - 40 lb less than a pair of the 4V heads)

---

That I did not know. I was under the assumption that it would be the same. Do you kno this for sure?Afterall, why go through another expense to redesign and build new molds.

Yes, the Ford GT has an Al block, but its a different block/casting.

When talking about cost, I thought we were just referring to the block casting. Overall, I agree, less components, less costs.

hmm, sounds good dude. :-D

o ya and
:pics:

Not that I don't believe you, but I was under the impression this was the same block currently being used on the 4.6L motors in the 2004 Mach I, Aviator, Explorer, Expedition, and Marauder (if/when they've finally switched that last one from the old Cobra casting).

I hope you are right - I hope they did reengineer the 4.6L block for more strength. As you point out, the 5.4L AL block was designed for big boost from the get-go, so they could just use the same design employed there. Although there's been plenty of debate that the current 4.6L AL block never had a problem with boost to begin with, but that instead they just wanted to keep costs down on the 03/04 Cobra. [/b][/quote]
The following is from the Ford press releases back in January. They imply that the block is new but do not specifially say so. IIRC someone here on The MustangSource gave a link to an article, could have been in MM&FF that had a lengthy interview with Thai-Tang that specifially talked about what parts in the 3V 4.6 were new and the block was one of them. Again IIRC they talked about the ribs in the V of the block being strengthened.

Yes, but they are referring to comparison with the 04 GT iron block. The Al block will be new to the GT.

At least that's what I read into it. I may be wrong.

Underrating may occur........look at what ford did with the F-150 and GT.

They said 9500 lbs for F-150 and then they said wait n'm we lied its 9,900 lbs.

Then GT was 500 hp.....then Vett 6 with 400 then Ford with 565 hp on the GT.

So maybe Ford will do the same with another auto icon.

325hp?! Wee!!

Actually I was talking to a guy who use to dyno cars....he goes to my church and he said parasitic losses are about 10%.

Depends on the car setup...10% maybe for a Front wheel drive manual....
15% for a RWD manual
20% for a RWD auto
I don't even know the number for AWD cars, but I do know that they have one of the worst losses before it touches pavement.
etc

The percentage depends on what the power has to go through before it hits the ground.

15% is a conservative and often accurate estimate of mustang drivetrain losses.

I still say 325hp at the crank.

I say the next Supercharged Mustang is a BOSS :drool:

At least I hope so....


Don't forget, there is always the use of Shelby GT350, GT500 and GT500KR :-D

And of course a MACH I in there somewhere too, life is good in the Ford Lane these days.


Our time has finally come............ :-D :banana:

kev you made a good point here. I remember reading some where when they were testing the 5.4 S/C motor for the Ford GT. That the SVT guys said you dont do this much research and certification on one engine for just 2 vehicles(Ford GT and the 06 Lightning) and that it would see operation in other vehicles. So a 3v 5.4 engine would not be that big of a surprise there! :dunno:

But hold on a sec, the Ford GT has a 4V 5.4L, not a 3V. No word yet on what the new Lightning will have, but the concept obviously did have the 4V (not that that means anything for sure).

Yeah, true, lotsa guys grenade stock motors with too much boost. But really, that's because the hypereutectic pistons and powder rods just can't handle it. With forged internals, you can run serious power before problems arise. Think about it, you rarely see a block let go. It would basically have to rip the mains out. You just don't hear about that happening with these deep skirted, crossbolted mod motors. I've only seen a couple destroyed blocks, and even those were because the internals let go and punched a hole in the side.

As someone pointed out "new" could just mean "new to the Mustang GT". The part about the block being strengthened could be refering to the changes made from the old "Cobra" blocks to the new high volume one, which we already know are indeed stronger.

However, thanks for the info. It could well be a new design. They make incremental changes to the blocks all the time. They then filter them into all the other models. So this new one could show up on the GT first. We'll know as soon as they hit the lots and someone checks casting numbers, or maybe earlier if the parts dept guys get the list before that (and the # remains the same).

They could also be using the new Aluminum alloy that the GT block uses. I guess we'll know more later.

Carrol Shelby better start developing some, that is, if he hasn't aleady :-D

But hold on a sec, the Ford GT has a 4V 5.4L, not a 3V. No word yet on what the new Lightning will have, but the concept obviously did have the 4V (not that that means anything for sure). [/b][/quote]
Yeah but they are modular motors with most of the components being interchangeable. And they do have a 3v head on the F-150 already so why would that not make sense for a SE like the mach 1 or boss? :dunno:

Again this is all speculation and we will have little to no proof of anything for atleast another 6-9 months minimum unless ford lets stuff slip out.

I here ya. My only point is that when Coletti says (and I'm quoting your paraphrasal):

"you dont do this much research and certification on one engine for just 2 vehicles"

He's talking about the motor in its entirity, save for exhaust and other minor things. He's not talking about a motor with completely different heads, because such a motor would still need to be R&D'd and certified independently of the 4V GT motor.

20-25%, depending. I almost purchased a '92 Dodge Stealth twin turbo (wish I had, now, it was a great deal ... only 36k miles, perfect shape) a month or so ago and was doing some research. Those cars were AWD, and while rated at 300hp, actual HP at the wheels was anywhere from 220-240 on dynos. That's a little misleading because AWD gives you some advantages on takeoff and such, but the loss is significant.

Superchargers are good for an extra 100 HP so maybe the stock GT engine really makes more than 300 HP.

My buddy had a Stealth Twin Turbo. Thing was wicked fast. I don't know about drivetrain power loss, though. You sure didn't feel it 'cause the thing launched.

Ford just announced that the 2005 Navigator will have the 3V SOHC 5.4L in place of the 4V DOHC motor.

I'll bet that most FoMoCo vehicles are going to get 3V heads. Only a few select vehicles, like the Ford GT, Shelby Cobra, Cobra R and maybe a couple Lincoln models will have 4V DOHC engines in the future. Everything else(including the SVT Mustang Cobra) will get 3V SOHC heads.

Ford also announced that the 6.4L V10 truck engine will get 3V heads for 2005
So let's hope that we will see a low deck 5.8L, 3V SOHC, V10 engine in a future Mustang SE. :worship:

I think it is easier to make more torque with the three valve heads which was the biggest complaint with the 2V motors.

More hp, more torque, broader powerband etc...because of better flow. The VCT plays a major part in this also.