turbo or supercharger?
1/12/13, 01:07 PM
#61
V6 Member
Join Date: November 27, 2012
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 4.0SOHC has a cast nodular iron crankshaft, not forged steel, but I have never heard of one failing at any horsepower.
The 4.0SOHC rods are forged steel but they are not all that strong and have been known to fail at 450+ RWHP.
The 4.0SOHC pistons are cast hypereutectic aluminum which are very strong but also very brittle. They have a thin top ring land so will not hold up well to detonation. As long as you have a tune that is safe from detonation and all the other components like the fuel pump and injectors are in good shape they can handle a lot of power.
The 4.0SOHC block is cast iron and seems to be very strong but detonation can crack the cylinder wall.
Bottom line is detonation is really bad on the 4.0SOHC so keep your tune safe. Don't push it to the absolute edge and run it a little rich rather than lean. Around 11.5-11.7 WOT AFR seems to be the sweet spot.
The 4.0SOHC rods are forged steel but they are not all that strong and have been known to fail at 450+ RWHP.
The 4.0SOHC pistons are cast hypereutectic aluminum which are very strong but also very brittle. They have a thin top ring land so will not hold up well to detonation. As long as you have a tune that is safe from detonation and all the other components like the fuel pump and injectors are in good shape they can handle a lot of power.
The 4.0SOHC block is cast iron and seems to be very strong but detonation can crack the cylinder wall.
Bottom line is detonation is really bad on the 4.0SOHC so keep your tune safe. Don't push it to the absolute edge and run it a little rich rather than lean. Around 11.5-11.7 WOT AFR seems to be the sweet spot.
1/12/13, 05:04 PM
#62
EuroGirl - I see you have lots of opinion, but those of us who "have done it" seem to go against your opinion on the strength of the 4.0. What do you drive and what work have you done on a 4.0?
The failures have not been due to the HP, rather lean conditions as NicePony pointed out is what has been the cause of every failure I am aware of on the 4.0. There are lots of stock engines out there running over 300 RWHP and >400 RWHP. I ran around 300 RWHP for over 100,000 miles on mine - and that included weekend drag racing the car and daily driving it year round.
The failures have not been due to the HP, rather lean conditions as NicePony pointed out is what has been the cause of every failure I am aware of on the 4.0. There are lots of stock engines out there running over 300 RWHP and >400 RWHP. I ran around 300 RWHP for over 100,000 miles on mine - and that included weekend drag racing the car and daily driving it year round.
1/12/13, 05:15 PM
#63
V6 Member
Join Date: November 27, 2012
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EuroGirl - I see you have lots of opinion, but those of us who "have done it" seem to go against your opinion on the strength of the 4.0. What do you drive and what work have you done on a 4.0?
The failures have not been due to the HP, rather lean conditions as NicePony pointed out is what has been the cause of every failure I am aware of on the 4.0. There are lots of stock engines out there running over 300 RWHP and >400 RWHP. I ran around 300 RWHP for over 100,000 miles on mine - and that included weekend drag racing the car and daily driving it year round.
The failures have not been due to the HP, rather lean conditions as NicePony pointed out is what has been the cause of every failure I am aware of on the 4.0. There are lots of stock engines out there running over 300 RWHP and >400 RWHP. I ran around 300 RWHP for over 100,000 miles on mine - and that included weekend drag racing the car and daily driving it year round.
Last edited by EuroGirl; 1/12/13 at 05:16 PM.
1/13/13, 10:43 AM
#64
Legacy TMS Member
Join Date: July 21, 2007
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My point is if you are genuinely worried you may brake your engine or drive train by altering it for more power than it has stock then you simply should not change it from its stock configuration.
On the other hand if you are willing to take the risk, and there are certainly risks, than you assume the responsibility for your decision and the research into what is known to be reasonably reliable without much worry of braking the engine. As pointed out by both JimC and myself, done right the 4.0 can go well over 150,000 - 200,000 mile running a supercharger with plenty of trips to the track and daily hard driving.
You chose to go the V8 route but there are plenty of us out there that don't see the need or even have the desire to run a V8 when the V6 will perfectly suit our needs without having the same old V8 setup as every GT on the road. For some of us it adds to the enjoyment running a V6 that will easily beat a stock GT and most bolt on V8s as well. It is priceless to see these guys scratch there chins at the track after loosing to a V6. Don't bother trying to convert us to the V8 GT hype. That is why we are posting in the V6 section. If people have GT envy they simply need to sell their V6 and get a GT or they will never be happy. I personally could give a rip if a guy is driving a 4, 6 or 8 cylinder Mustang. They are all still Mustangs. I would never try to talk someone into choosing a specific type of Mustang, unlike a lot of GT guys that think there isn't another choice and hate on V6s, that is totally up to their own personal preference.
My V6 was tuned to around 330 RWH and I literally did a WOT acceleration to red line in 4th gear onto the freeway every day for over four years not to mention open track sessions some of which were up to 45 minute long. Like JimC stated virtually every engine failure to date can be traced to fuel delivery/tune issues which leaned the engine causing detonation and braking a piston. The exceptions were a few pushing turbos to the limit pushing over 500WRHP and windowing the block because of a failed stock rod. In my case I went into a large 360° corner during an autocross without enough fuel in the tank to prevent the pump from drawing air and instantly leaning out the engine resulting in server detonation which broke a piston. This was totally my own fault and not a fault of the engine or supercharger. And this was at 150,000 miles on the engine 120,000 miles of which was ran with the supercharger installed.
Now I'm running forged pistons and rods with stage two heads and over 14lbs of boost without issue. According to all calculations it should be in the 400+RWHP range and by the feel of it and driving my sons 2009 GT 4.6 V8 Edlebrock supercharged with 5PSI, which is also in the 400+RWHP range, the cars are pretty much the same. But also take into consideration I am not the least bit worried about blowing up the engine. If it happens it happens. It isn't the end of the world for me!
Last edited by Nice Pony; 1/13/13 at 11:02 AM.
1/13/13, 10:46 AM
#65
V6 Member
Join Date: November 27, 2012
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Neither the 4.0 V6 or the 4.6 V8 are designed specifically to make more power than what they come with from the factory. They engineers build in a margin of safety so the engine can at least last 100,000 miles or so to cover the warranty and this has to happen regardless of how the owner drives the car. Even so even stock engines fail occasionally.
My point is if you are genuinely worried you may brake your engine or drive train by altering it for more power than it has stock then you simply should not change it from its stock configuration.
On the other hand if you are willing to take the risk, and there are certainly risks, than you assume the responsibility for your decision and the research to what is known to be reasonably reliable without much worry of braking the engine. As pointed out by both JimC and myself, done right the 4.0 can go well over 150,000 - 200,000 mile running a supercharger with plenty of trips to the track and daily hard driving.
You chose to go the V8 route but there are plenty of us out there that don't see the need or even have the desire to run a V8 when the V6 will perfectly suit our needs without having the same old V8 setup as every GT on the road. For some of us it adds to the enjoyment running a V6 that will easily beat a stock GT and most bolt on V8s as well. It is priceless to see these guys scratch there chins at the track after loosing to a V6. Don't bother trying to convert us to the V8 GT hype. That is why we are posting in the V6 section. If people have GT envy they simply need to sell their V6 and get a GT or they will never be happy. I personally could give a rip if a guy is driving a 4, 6 or 8 cylinder Mustang. They are all still Mustangs. I would never try to talk someone into choosing a specific type of Mustang, unlike a lot of GT guys that think there isn't another choice and hate on V6s, that is totally up to their own personal preference.
Mine V6 was tuned to around 330 RWH and I literally did a WOT acceleration onto the freeway every day for over four years not to mention open track session some of which were up to 45 minute long. Like JimC stated virtually every engine failure to date can be traced to fuel delivery issues which lean ed the engine causing detonation and braking a piston. The exceptions were a few pushing turbos to the limit pushing over 500WRHP and windowing the block because of a failed stock rod. I my case I went into a large 360° corner during an autocross without enough fuel in the tank to prevent the pump from drawing air and instantly leaning out the engine resulting in server detonation which broke a piston. This was totally my own fault and not a fault of the engine or supercharger. And this was at 150,000 miles on the engine 120,000 miles of which was ran with the supercharger installed.
Now I'm running forged pistons and rods with stage two heads and over 14lbs of boost without issue. According to all calculations it should be in the 400+RWHP range and by the feel of it and driving my sons 2009 GT 4.6 Edlebrock supercharged V8 with 5PSI, which is also in the 400+RWHP range, the cars are pretty much the same. But also take into consideration I am not the least bit worried about blowing up the engine. If it happens it happens. It isn't the end of the world!
1/13/13, 10:55 AM
#66
Bullitt Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: September 24, 2012
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1/13/13, 11:01 AM
#67
V6 Member
Join Date: November 27, 2012
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1/13/13, 11:09 AM
#68
Bullitt Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: September 24, 2012
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You didn't read the post before right, that's why I point that out. The guy you quoted has a built engine not stock
1/13/13, 11:12 AM
#69
V6 Member
Join Date: November 27, 2012
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1/13/13, 11:30 AM
#70
Bullitt Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: September 24, 2012
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well the first post you argued with was correct. Im just saying the last guy you quoted. But on the argument part, there's people who run theirs cars daily and many more who prove you wrong so....argue away lol
1/13/13, 05:51 PM
#71
Actually NicePony only built the engine recently. Up until he went lean in a race he was on the stock engine, stock internals. Again, it was a lean condition that caused his failure. We both put well over 100,000 miles on the 4.0 with 300 RWHP, NicePony does road course racing and I did drag racing - on the stock internals and stock engine. And EuroGirl you did say that I was just lucky to not have a failure with my set up, which was not anywhere near 400 RWHP.
The failures were the result of lean conditions (and in one I know of trying to push 25 lbs of boost and he was estimated at that point to be almost 600 RWHP, estimate only because he broke on the dyno).
I know of at least one turbo 4.0 that is running on the stock internals, no forging, pushing 450 to the rear wheels with no issues.
The failures were the result of lean conditions (and in one I know of trying to push 25 lbs of boost and he was estimated at that point to be almost 600 RWHP, estimate only because he broke on the dyno).
I know of at least one turbo 4.0 that is running on the stock internals, no forging, pushing 450 to the rear wheels with no issues.
Last edited by JimC; 1/13/13 at 05:54 PM.
1/13/13, 07:45 PM
#72
V6 Member
Join Date: November 27, 2012
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually NicePony only built the engine recently. Up until he went lean in a race he was on the stock engine, stock internals. Again, it was a lean condition that caused his failure. We both put well over 100,000 miles on the 4.0 with 300 RWHP, NicePony does road course racing and I did drag racing - on the stock internals and stock engine. And EuroGirl you did say that I was just lucky to not have a failure with my set up, which was not anywhere near 400 RWHP.
The failures were the result of lean conditions (and in one I know of trying to push 25 lbs of boost and he was estimated at that point to be almost 600 RWHP, estimate only because he broke on the dyno).
I know of at least one turbo 4.0 that is running on the stock internals, no forging, pushing 450 to the rear wheels with no issues.
The failures were the result of lean conditions (and in one I know of trying to push 25 lbs of boost and he was estimated at that point to be almost 600 RWHP, estimate only because he broke on the dyno).
I know of at least one turbo 4.0 that is running on the stock internals, no forging, pushing 450 to the rear wheels with no issues.
Last edited by EuroGirl; 1/13/13 at 07:46 PM.
1/13/13, 08:32 PM
#73
Bullitt Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: September 24, 2012
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you gonna turn this into a who has a bigger engine? Many people put facts in front of you, just accept it lol
1/13/13, 08:35 PM
#74
V6 Member
Join Date: November 27, 2012
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There were no facts o support the whole 400+ rwhp on a 4.0 it's just not going to last long unless it's built. A stick 4.0 isn't going to handle that much power for very long and to say it can handle more power stock than a 4.6 is stupid also many other forms support what I've said.
1/13/13, 08:38 PM
#75
Bullitt Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: September 24, 2012
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There were no facts o support the whole 400+ rwhp on a 4.0 it's just not going to last long unless it's built. A stick 4.0 isn't going to handle that much power for very long and to say it can handle more power stock than a 4.6 is stupid also many other forms support what I've said.
1/13/13, 08:46 PM
#76
V6 Member
Join Date: November 27, 2012
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not going to argue with you go turbo your 4.0 to 400+ rwhp and don't come crying when it breaks on you. Don't mind what I say even though countless people from countless forums say the same thing.
1/13/13, 08:59 PM
#78
V6 Member
Join Date: November 27, 2012
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No I'm not dont blame me because people from other forums support what I say I don't get this from no where but fine if this is how the forum is going to be I'm leaving. Also stupidgenius your a *******
1/14/13, 08:00 PM
#80
Legacy TMS Member
Join Date: July 21, 2007
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well EuroGirl has her facts wrong not only on the 4.0 but also on the max horsepower a stock 4.6 can be generally safely be taken to which is at least 100+ more horse power then she states. Hell, Ford racing sells a bolt on supercharger kit that brings it to 550 horsepower with no internal modifications to the engine. I'm convinced she has no real life experience with building or modifying engines so her comments just need to be taken with a grain of salt.
Last edited by Nice Pony; 1/14/13 at 08:01 PM.
