MSP, I too have read every one of your posts and my impression is you have a chip on your shoulder about anything other than the system you're running. You say one good thing about Mike for every 10 bad things. I am a completely impartial bystander, I don't know you or Mike, but I am here to tell you that Mike has been completely impartial and you have been almost completely biased. You seem to have chased Mike out of his own thread too. I hope he comes back, I'd like to hear more about this turbo system.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tres Wright @ February 25, 2006, 5:29 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
MSP, I too have read every one of your posts and my impression is you have a chip on your shoulder about anything other than the system you're running. You say one good thing about Mike for every 10 bad things. I am a completely impartial bystander, I don't know you or Mike, but I am here to tell you that Mike has been completely impartial and you have been almost completely biased. You seem to have chased Mike out of his own thread too. I hope he comes back, I'd like to hear more about this turbo system.
[/b][/quote]

Nice to meet you Tres! However, you are stating false facts.. Completely wrong in nature.. The fruit of this thread talks about a Supercharged car not losing to turbo charged car just because the turbo can bring back boost to the lower rpms..

You know, when I tac out 1st gear, my rpms dont start off back at 1500rpm, they pickup the band at about 2800 rpm if I'm on it.. The Vortech recirculates already aftercooled air by way of a by-pass valve.. This air is routed to the front of the supercharger and is re-used.. Now when I tac out 2nd gear and shift to third gear, which is about 62MPH, the rpms only drop back to about 3100rpm... The air is then recirculated through Vortechs unique scavenging system and is already cooled once, and thrown back to the front of the supercharger.. When I tac out 3rd gear, which is about 108mph the rpm's drop back to about 3600rpm... Well with in the boost area..

So you can understand, that with each gear I tac out, I am actually getting closer to boost with each shift.. No I may not start each gear with boost, but it takes only a split second for me to catch it.. Also, no I dont start each shift with full boost, but boost pushes the engine up faster into more boost..

So understanding this principle, you cant assume a turbo can always beat a supercharged car..

The reason why the supercharger works good with the SOHC 4.0 is because the SOHC 4.0 is very friendly to torque.. Which means, it has the inherent ability to catch the rpms back up to boost alot faster than the older V6's.. The SOHC 4.0 is the perfect engine for supercharging because it has a knack for torque.. Give it alittle forced air and gas, and it will create enough torque to propel the engine back to full boost ASAP..

So I think somehow you missed the premiss of my argument my new friend.. Hope this clears that up! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

Let me also add that when i shift from 3rd to 4th @ 108MPH I start 4th with no less than about 4 to 5PSI of boost.. So by the time 4th is encountered it starts life off with 5psi of boost, which quickley rises towards 12psi..

3rd gear with a 2005 V6 Mustang T5 5spd is a 1.33:1 ratio gear! Which means 4th gear's 1.00:1 ratio is only .33 away ...

 

Ok another way to look at it..

When I tac out 3rd gear @ 5800rpm which is a 1.33:1 gear, I must remove 33% of the rpms to start 4th gear.. This is 1914rpm.. Which means I start 4th gear @ 3886rpm..

In my car running 12psi of boost 3886RPM is about 7psi of boost!

Here is the Boost claculator

The info needed to plug in is here..

Crank Pulley Diameter= 6in

Shift rpm= 3886rpm--- Which is where I end up in 4th after I have shifted from 3rd to 4th @ 5800rpm.. You take away 33%.. 5800x33%=1914rpm

Pulley size = 2.87

The Vortech V2 on my system creates a pound of boost for every 3987RPM of the Superchargers impeller... Once you get the impeller speed divide it by 3987rpm.. This will give you the PSI I will start out with for 4th gear.. Its actually 7.33psi of boost!!

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...pspeedv-2.html

Use this tool to plug in my numbers!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ February 25, 2006, 6:48 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Ok another way to look at it..

When I tac out 3rd gear @ 5800rpm which is a 1.33:1 gear, I must remove 33% of the rpms to start 4th gear.. This is 1914rpm.. Which means I start 4th gear @ 3886rpm..

In my car running 12psi of boost 3886RPM is about 7psi of boost!

Here is the Boost claculator

The info needed to plug in is here..

Crank Pulley Diameter= 6in

Shift rpm= 3886rpm--- Which is where I end up in 4th after I have shifted from 3rd to 4th @ 5800rpm.. You [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img] take away 33%.. 5800x33%=1914rpm

Pulley size = 2.87

The Vortech V2 on my system creates a pound of boost for every 3987RPM of the Superchargers impeller... Once you get the impeller speed divide it by 3987rpm.. This will give you the PSI I will start out with for 4th gear.. Its actually 7.33psi of boost!!

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...pspeedv-2.html

Use this tool to plug in my numbers!
[/b][/quote]

Ok to be exact, it is 103mph @ 5859rpm then shift to 4th gear--4th gear starts at 3926RPM @ 7.5psi of boost.. The correccted loss is 1933rpm on the shift from 3rd to 4th gear..

Ok now back on topic.. No more side bars!

So yes we all concede the Pipline Turbo in theory should allow you to start each gear out with full boost after 2nd gear.. So this leaves a foot race to the traps for both cars in 3rd gear.. With the Pipline turbo carrying full boost on the shift from the 3rd to 4th.. While A S/C must start at about 7.5psi.. This scenario in a nutshell describes why you all should opt for the 9psi kit if at all possible.. You can see how a foot race will turn out if you only have 8psi going into 4th gear.. In a race against me for instance, it would mean curtains by the time you reached the traps! Someone call 911!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ February 25, 2006, 8:10 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Nice to meet you Tres! However, you are stating false facts.. Completely wrong in nature.. The fruit of this thread talks about a Supercharged car not losing to turbo charged car just because the turbo can bring back boost to the lower rpms..

You know, when I tac out 1st gear, my rpms dont start off back at 1500rpm, they pickup the band at about 2800 rpm if I'm on it.. The Vortech recirculates already aftercooled air by way of a by-pass valve.. This air is routed to the front of the supercharger and is re-used.. Now when I tac out 2nd gear and shift to third gear, which is about 62MPH, the rpms only drop back to about 3100rpm... The air is then recirculated through Vortechs unique scavenging system and is already cooled once, and thrown back to the front of the supercharger.. When I tac out 3rd gear, which is about 108mph the rpm's drop back to about 3600rpm... Well with in the boost area..

So you can understand, that with each gear I tac out, I am actually getting closer to boost with each shift.. No I may not start each gear with boost, but it takes only a split second for me to catch it.. Also, no I dont start each shift with full boost, but boost pushes the engine up faster into more boost..

So understanding this principle, you cant assume a turbo can always beat a supercharged car..

The reason why the supercharger works good with the SOHC 4.0 is because the SOHC 4.0 is very friendly to torque.. Which means, it has the inherent ability to catch the rpms back up to boost alot faster than the older V6's.. The SOHC 4.0 is the perfect engine for supercharging because it has a knack for torque.. Give it alittle forced air and gas, and it will create enough torque to propel the engine back to full boost ASAP..

So I think somehow you missed the premiss of my argument my new friend.. Hope this clears that up! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

Let me also add that when i shift from 3rd to 4th @ 108MPH I start 4th with no less than about 4 to 5PSI of boost.. So by the time 4th is encountered it starts life off with 5psi of boost, which quickley rises towards 12psi..

3rd gear with a 2005 V6 Mustang T5 5spd is a 1.33:1 ratio gear! Which means 4th gear's 1.00:1 ratio is only .33 away ...
[/b][/quote]

You're totally missing the point. No one invited you to Mike's thread to argue about SC versus turbo. Every time someone points out that your comments don't belong here, that you are trashing someone else's product, you claim it isn't true and that they haven't read your posts. Yes, we have read all of your posts, and yes, you are trashing someone else's product. I am not "stating false facts", I am calling it like it is. Now before you continue your rant of essentially calling me a liar, I invite you to PM or email me and I will be happy to tell you what I REALLY think about you without tempering my comments for the public forum [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tres Wright @ February 25, 2006, 7:29 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
You're totally missing the point. No one invited you to Mike's thread to argue about SC versus turbo. Every time someone points out that your comments don't belong here, that you are trashing someone else's product, you claim it isn't true and that they haven't read your posts. Yes, we have read all of your posts, and yes, you are trashing someone else's product. I am not "stating false facts", I am calling it like it is. Now before you continue your rant of essentially calling me a liar, I invite you to PM or email me and I will be happy to tell you what I REALLY think about you without tempering my comments for the public forum [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]


Ok Tres Wright! You win.. I'm done here.. I only pointed these things out because some were saying that a S/C car cant win against a turbo.. I have shed light on the truth so I'm done.. Point taken Tres! Way to go! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

 

I am struggling to find a quote from anyone asserting "that a S/C car cant win against a turbo." If you could find and cite it for me, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

Thanks Tres. For the record, third gear is 1.41 on the T-5.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(1trickpony @ February 25, 2006, 7:39 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Thanks Tres. For the record, third gear is 1.41 on the T-5.
[/b][/quote]

http://www.shadetreemechanic.com/for...2005_specs.htm


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJ06 @ February 23, 2006, 9:55 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Goliath as you know I am considering the Procharger and Mikes turbo take a look at below.
Thinking out loud IMO below

Ok compared Mikes graph to the Procharger P-1SC at 9psi vs Mike’s turbo at 8psi, as I am reading Mike’s chart as black = HP and green = TQ

Procharger chart per Mustang 5.0 magazine starts at 3,510 RPM.
Procharger 321HP@306TQ-9psi
Mikes Turbo 304HP@340TQ-8psi
Dyno results Procharger vs.Mike's turbo

Procharger 3,510-RPM 188/HP-280/TQ
Turbo 3,510-RPM 225/HP-340/TQ
Procharger 4,000-RPM 227HP-298/TQ
Turbo 4,000-RPM 260HP-340TQ
Procharger 4,500-RPM 262HP-305TQ
Turbo 4,500-RPM 290HP-342TQ
Procharger 5,000-RPM 289HP-303TQ
Turbo 5,000-RPM 304HP-315TQ

Pretty impressive for the turbo and a couple notes here, below 35,10 RPM the turbo will dominate even more!! The Procharger hit 306HP at 5700RPM and didn’t hit its peak HP till 5,790@321HP

The turbo will dominate off the line (1/8 &1/4)) and will effectively have the better ET time per both cars hook up.

That’s just a quick view above look at both graphs in more detail and you will see even more, this turbo acts more like a roots type supercharger to me with power coming on at a lower RPM range than expected I mean this is nice!.
[/b][/quote]

Here ya go! So it was not mean spirited but it did place the S/C in a somewhat questionable light.. Until of course you actually crunch the numbers..

Here is another 2005 Mustang V6 Spec list..

http://www.engine-power.com/ford/2005_mustang_v6.html

Still good 'ol 1.33:1 in 3rd gear!

 

MIKES TURBO IS GREAT isnt it? Lets talk about that.

Mike, if you are still readin this jumbled mess of posts, are you going to be selling this with an option of an electronic boost controller?

 

Mike I have some questions.

1. What is the exact release date your turbo will be ready to ship?
2. Will the turbo on the above ship date be ready with a tune for a 2006 Mustang 4.0?
3. If you could e-mail me the installation instruction per pdf file when you can.
4. How many hours about would you recommend it would take if a speed shop were to install the turbo so we have an ideal what to expect?
5. Will stock plugs and gap work fine or do you recommend any changes?
6. Is there any chance you could post a picture of the turbo installed on your Mustang 4.0?
7. What type warranty what does it cover and how long?
8. I see you have a single 3� exhaust system and a dual exhaust setup available, by any chance did you dyno (at what psi) both and if any what was the difference?



Yes I agree with Frazm on the electronic boost controller would be great but as an option of course, I’m trying to budget all the cost per my funds that are available as I have other mods I have to perform also depending on what I go with.



Thanks

 

What about an intercooler spayer, the SRT4 offers one with their stage 2 upgrade on the turbo system? that'd be great for the track.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ February 26, 2006, 12:50 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
http://www.shadetreemechanic.com/for...2005_specs.htm
Here ya go! So it was not mean spirited but it did place the S/C in a somewhat questionable light.. Until of course you actually crunch the numbers..

Here is another 2005 Mustang V6 Spec list..

http://www.engine-power.com/ford/2005_mustang_v6.html

Still good 'ol 1.33:1 in 3rd gear!
[/b][/quote]

Nothing against the Shade Tree mechanic or some third party website but I usually true the manufacture's website.

http://media.ford.com/products/presskit_di...=398&make_id=92

Back to the good 'ol 1.41 in 3rd gear!

I'm honestly surprised by your level of research on this. I remember these numbers from pre-production articles. If your not satisfied with Ford's website, just shift from 3rd into 4th and note the rpm drop. Everyone agrees 4th is one to one. With 1.41, look for 4150 rpm with a shift at redline (5850). With 1.33, you should see 4400 rpm. A small but noticeable gap.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(1trickpony @ February 26, 2006, 1:35 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Nothing against the Shade Tree mechanic or some third party website but I usually true the manufacture's website.

http://media.ford.com/products/presskit_di...=398&make_id=92

Back to the good 'ol 1.41 in 3rd gear!

I'm honestly surprised by your level of research on this. I remember these numbers from pre-production articles. If your not satisfied with Ford's website, just shift from 3rd into 4th and note the rpm drop. Everyone agrees 4th is one to one. With 1.41, look for 4150 rpm with a shift at redline (5850). With 1.33, you should see 4400 rpm. A small but noticeable gap.
[/b][/quote]

Looks like they changed 3rd gear for the 2006 Model Mustang V6! Nice Try my old friend, but my car has 1.33's! That article is for the 2006! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

So back to good 'ol 1.33 for the 2005 Mustang V6er's [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

But seriously thank you for this.. Now you understand why Forced needs some more 2006 Mustangs! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

This does mean that if I race a 2006 Mustang V6 running the same kit, he may pull on me in 3rd gear..


So now that I know this, I'll have to advanced the timing by 1 degree forward, and add about .50% to my A/F mixture in favor of lean.. This way I'll have a huge surprise waiting for the tricky 2006 V6! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ February 26, 2006, 10:49 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Looks like they changed 3rd gear for the 2006 Model Mustang V6! Nice Try my old friend, but my car has 1.33's! That article is for the 2006! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

So back to good 'ol 1.33 for the 2005 Mustang V6er's [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

But seriously thank you for this.. Now you understand why Forced needs some more 2006 Mustangs! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

This does mean that if I race a 2006 Mustang V6 running the same kit, he may pull on me in 3rd gear..
So now that I know this, I'll have to advanced the timing by 1 degree forward, and add about .50% to my A/F mixture in favor of lean.. This way I'll have a huge surprise waiting for the tricky 2006 V6! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]

wrong... The T5 in 2005 is the same T5 as in 2006.

Here are the 2005 Manufacturers Specificatons: http://www.tammyandjohn.com/Mustang/Scream...stang_specs.pdf

1st - 3.75 :1
2nd - 2.19 :1
3rd - 1.41 :1
4th - 1.00 :1
5th - 0.72 :1

Reverse 3.53 :1

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scrming @ February 26, 2006, 7:57 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
wrong... The T5 in 2005 is the same T5 as in 2006.

Here are the 2005 Manufacturers Specificatons: http://www.tammyandjohn.com/Mustang/Scream...stang_specs.pdf

1st - 3.75 :1
2nd - 2.19 :1
3rd - 1.41 :1
4th - 1.00 :1
5th - 0.72 :1

Reverse 3.53 :1
[/b][/quote]

Ok Alright you got me!! I'll have give in on this one! WOW! I guess you cant trust specs found on the internet..

Nice way to tag team on me to get me the right info, and force me to accept it..

This is interesting.. I wonder how 3rd gear could be mis-reported at several sites for the V6 only..? Well, I lose this one gracefully.. I accept a double teamed tap-out from you two grapplers!

Looks like that may shave off a 1/2 a pound of boost.. I'll go over the numbers again..

I'm still determined to get to the bottom of this 1.33 fiasco though.. But you guys do win based on more trusted info.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

 

Ok so basing it off of 1.41 3rd gear we have a shift from 3rd to 4th @ 5971 RPM or 99MPH we will shave off 41% of this which is 2448 RPM.. In which case you would start 4th gear @ 3522RPM This gives us a Supercharger impeller speed of 26,507 RPM. This correlates to 6.64psi of boost with a 2.87 in pulley when you pick up 4th gear.. Or 7psi....

So, you guys have managed to shave off .5 psi of boost in your effort to prove your point.. Although it is a admirable effort.. My point and position still remains unchanged.. You would be best choosing the 9psi Pipeline Intercooled option in the long run.. But make sure Mike has the 12psi springs in stock cause your gonna need them.. I'm quite sure Mike will be more than happy to sell you the 12psi springs!

Now of course most important to note is the stock kit is 10 psi.. In which case this number could be closer to 5.5psi to 6psi..

Its actually probably better to judge the Pipeline turbo to a stock kit as opposed to one @ 12psi like mine.. This would seem more fair actually..

Those numbers are here.. For the standard 10psi kit..

So as I suspected.. With a 3.25in pulley this places you at 5.87PSI of boost on the shift from 3rd to 4th, or 6psi of boost rounded off.. Still pretty good..

The whole point of this being that with a Supercharger, you still get closer to boost with each shift, which makes the turbos ability to carry created boost down low really not all that significant in a 1/4 mile race.. This is because the Turbo car itself will only be down low at the start of the race.. His rpms will increase with each shift as well, although he is able to start at full boost with each shift as opposed to building it back up partially.. A tough race for sure if 2 Mustang V6's were racing and 1 is a turbo and one is supercharged.. I cant say for sure how it will turn out but the turbo car would have a good edge, provided it has enough power with full boost, and is able to grab for itself a nice cushion coming out of the hole.. I actually think coming out of the hole is where the race will be won or lost..

So nice debate guys! Glad we could get through it without any name calling! Or mean spirited remarks. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

 

One more thing.. It is important to note that on the shift from 3rd to 4th, it is assumed you will press the accelerator pedal to the WOT position.. Boost is based on throttle position.. Which means that 3522rpm in a 1/2 throttle position will not produce the max amount of boost based on impeller speed.. When you press it to the WOT position this tells the MAF and the Fuel system you desire maximum boost at this rpm range.. So @ 3522RPM when at WOT, this is how you achieve a full 7psi of boost..

Sounds tricky because most assume that boost increases as rpms rise.. This is true.. But the design is so that driveability is still there.. Since more air mix with gas creates boost, you must tell this to the cars computer in order for it to mix the right amount of gas to the specified amount of air in which case boost is created at its maximum at the afformentioned RPM range when in WOT..

So just revving to 3522RPM when not at WOT does not produce 7 psi of boost.. Its the WOT position which indicates the desire of the driver..

 

Thanks Scrming, I was going to show MSP the link to the 05 press kit and the link to the TREMEC website. MSP, one of the great things and one of the bad things about the Internet is anyone can post anything. Logic or facts are not a requirement. I always try to stick with credible sources, manufactures or people with real racing experience. I pointed the gearing issue because it is an important detail, the basis for your arguement centers on rpms after a shift.

I don't want to get off topic, Mike's turbo, but I think the problem here is trying to speak in absolutes. In general, a turbo at the same psi should beat a S/C, period. A turbo is just as efficient, if not more, as a Vortech and has a wider power band. Simple physics involved here. There's plenty of impartial and credible websites on this subject. Its all speculation until you take it to the track. Fazm brings up a great point about drag racing, no surprise since he races, there's more to it than dynos and raw power.

MSP, you have a nice setup and should be proud. You sound threatened by comments that turbos are better. If you're happy with your setup, who cares? I if get a power adder, I would probably get a roots-type blower, the most inefficient design out there. I like the looks and the low-end torque. I guess the question is what are you looking for?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ February 26, 2006, 11:53 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
One more thing.. It is important to note that on the shift from 3rd to 4th, it is assumed you will press the accelerator pedal to the WOT position.. Boost is based on throttle position.. Which means that 3522rpm in a 1/2 throttle position will not produce the max amount of boost based on impeller speed.. When you press it to the WOT position this tells the MAF and the Fuel system you desire maximum boost at this rpm range.. So @ 3522RPM when at WOT, this is how you achieve a full 7psi of boost..

Sounds tricky because most assume that boost increases as rpms rise.. This is true.. But the design is so that driveability is still there.. Since more air mix with gas creates boost, you must tell this to the cars computer in order for it to mix the right amount of gas to the specified amount of air in which case boost is created at its maximum at the afformentioned RPM range when in WOT..

So just revving to 3522RPM when not at WOT does not produce 7 psi of boost.. Its the WOT position which indicates the desire of the driver..
[/b][/quote]
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?sh...pic=45684&st=40
Can you say burned Ha Ha [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lol.gif[/img]