Turbocharger or supercharger?
6/23/05, 03:19 AM
#1
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First of all, I'm still a "virgin" when it comes to performance mods, but this car is just the right one for experimenting and improving!
I still cannot make up my mind between a turbocharger and a supercharger. I've previously owned turbocharged cars (see my sig), but I've never even driven a supercharged one.
Could you go into a bit of a detail about your choices (like which manufacturer and why)?
For the sake of this poll only, let's put aside the hole this mod would burn into our pockets.
Thanks a lot for any input!
I still cannot make up my mind between a turbocharger and a supercharger. I've previously owned turbocharged cars (see my sig), but I've never even driven a supercharged one.
Could you go into a bit of a detail about your choices (like which manufacturer and why)?
For the sake of this poll only, let's put aside the hole this mod would burn into our pockets.
Thanks a lot for any input!
6/23/05, 03:40 AM
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I'm not aware of all turbos and SC kits out there, but I do know of a turbo that was created that made virtually zero lag. Don't have the details on it, or if it could even be had on on our applications, but the technology is now there.
Superchargers havent made any amazing leaps&bounds from what I know of tech wise.
So in case that lagless turbo is ever available for the Mustang, it would be my choice hands down.
Other than that I just love the SC, just because. Not really sure why, but I'd get one if it convinced me on its capabilitites.
Superchargers havent made any amazing leaps&bounds from what I know of tech wise.
So in case that lagless turbo is ever available for the Mustang, it would be my choice hands down.
Other than that I just love the SC, just because. Not really sure why, but I'd get one if it convinced me on its capabilitites.
6/23/05, 06:24 AM
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Originally posted by ManEHawke@June 23, 2005, 4:43 AM
I'm not aware of all turbos and SC kits out there, but I do know of a turbo that was created that made virtually zero lag. Don't have the details on it, or if it could even be had on on our applications, but the technology is now there.
Superchargers havent made any amazing leaps&bounds from what I know of tech wise.
So in case that lagless turbo is ever available for the Mustang, it would be my choice hands down.
Other than that I just love the SC, just because. Not really sure why, but I'd get one if it convinced me on its capabilitites.
I'm not aware of all turbos and SC kits out there, but I do know of a turbo that was created that made virtually zero lag. Don't have the details on it, or if it could even be had on on our applications, but the technology is now there.
Superchargers havent made any amazing leaps&bounds from what I know of tech wise.
So in case that lagless turbo is ever available for the Mustang, it would be my choice hands down.
Other than that I just love the SC, just because. Not really sure why, but I'd get one if it convinced me on its capabilitites.
Then again I could be wrong....please don't flame me
6/23/05, 06:35 AM
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One difference that I am aware of is torque. Seems that most well made and tuned turbo's will give you more consistant torque through the curve. SC's while some will show strong in the mid range, most will make the torque up top at higher rpm. I will take torque over horsepower anyday. Hopefully the new KB will show some ***** down low where it is needed.
6/23/05, 06:41 AM
#5
My intent is to go with a supercharger sometime next spring. I'm waiting for the bugs to be worked out and the "tunes" to be dialed in. I am also waiting to see what other updates may go on before hand such as heads/pistons/cams/etc.... Yep, I'm reliving my childhood....YEEEE HAAAAAA.
6/23/05, 07:02 AM
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SCs run on a belt so even if the engine is miss tuned by a lil ur still gona get power loss....i would go with a turbo charger....The sound from SC is so annoying sounds like an annoying scream IMO
6/23/05, 07:36 AM
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I'm goin' with a lysholm compressor (twin screw) type supercharger. I'll probably go with Whipple, but Ken Bell is a good one too... not sure if Saleen had done a good job of making a twin screw yet. I wouldn't go with a centrifugal s/c or a roots.... least of all a roots. the twin screw is the most efficient as far as s/c goes, but... it's ultimately up to you.
here's the deal.... this engine can handle only about 8 psi of boost..... would you rather have all 8 lbs from idle to redline, or do you want a turbo that's going to take 1/2 of your RPM range to spool up?
sure, there may be turbos that are "lagless", but that takes a LOT of plumbing (because you have to build volume) and you have to have a very large turbo, and you're not going to be able to use but only 8 psi of the charge, so you're blowing off all the excess thru the waste gate, almost constantly I'd guess.... at least with a "lagless" turbo.
Think about it.... when you go to the gas station to put air in your tires.... say you had a pickup w/ 33" tires. one was running low, so you pop a couple of quarters in the little compressor provided by the gas station... you start out with only 10 psi in the tire... no big deal.... you only need 25 more psi. well..... you're going to be there a long time and it's going to cost you a couple of bucks. Those compressors don't have a very large tank at all.... and that's the problem... if there's no volume, the compressor can't keep up with the demand for air. Your turbo works much the same way. at first, the compressor can't keep up with the demand for air, so there is a deficeincy ..... called lag. it's not until the exhaust can push your impellers upward of around 14K rpms before it can push enough air to run at the desired boost. The more duct work you have, the less lag you'll have because you'll have more volume.... but you'll have to run plumbing out to your rear and back to have enough to make it "lagless".
Now, a centrifigal blower works much like a turbo, but it's belt driven... less lag, but it still has to spool up before it's boosting.
Roots types lose litterally half of their charge back out the intake manifold.... and they still have to build pressure into lower intake before they start boosting.. then they just lose it back out the top in the form of hot air.... very inefficient.
Screw type blowers are so tight that they are boosting immediately in the supercharger, and don't lose any back through the bower. You'll still want to intercool the charge, but it's much more efficient than any other blower. I've ran my mouth long enough... go to this link for Whipple and do some homework... there's a lot of good info here. Be sure to check the links at the bottom of the page... they go into a little more depth. There's even little interactive diagrams that explain it all.
good luck brutha.... have fun.
here's the deal.... this engine can handle only about 8 psi of boost..... would you rather have all 8 lbs from idle to redline, or do you want a turbo that's going to take 1/2 of your RPM range to spool up?
sure, there may be turbos that are "lagless", but that takes a LOT of plumbing (because you have to build volume) and you have to have a very large turbo, and you're not going to be able to use but only 8 psi of the charge, so you're blowing off all the excess thru the waste gate, almost constantly I'd guess.... at least with a "lagless" turbo.
Think about it.... when you go to the gas station to put air in your tires.... say you had a pickup w/ 33" tires. one was running low, so you pop a couple of quarters in the little compressor provided by the gas station... you start out with only 10 psi in the tire... no big deal.... you only need 25 more psi. well..... you're going to be there a long time and it's going to cost you a couple of bucks. Those compressors don't have a very large tank at all.... and that's the problem... if there's no volume, the compressor can't keep up with the demand for air. Your turbo works much the same way. at first, the compressor can't keep up with the demand for air, so there is a deficeincy ..... called lag. it's not until the exhaust can push your impellers upward of around 14K rpms before it can push enough air to run at the desired boost. The more duct work you have, the less lag you'll have because you'll have more volume.... but you'll have to run plumbing out to your rear and back to have enough to make it "lagless".
Now, a centrifigal blower works much like a turbo, but it's belt driven... less lag, but it still has to spool up before it's boosting.
Roots types lose litterally half of their charge back out the intake manifold.... and they still have to build pressure into lower intake before they start boosting.. then they just lose it back out the top in the form of hot air.... very inefficient.
Screw type blowers are so tight that they are boosting immediately in the supercharger, and don't lose any back through the bower. You'll still want to intercool the charge, but it's much more efficient than any other blower. I've ran my mouth long enough... go to this link for Whipple and do some homework... there's a lot of good info here. Be sure to check the links at the bottom of the page... they go into a little more depth. There's even little interactive diagrams that explain it all.
good luck brutha.... have fun.
6/23/05, 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by tw0scoops123@June 23, 2005, 6:27 AM
It's only lagless, if the car's engine is tuned just right for the turbo. Some cars that get made with a turbo can sometimes suffer turbo lag...it's all in the setup. But from my experience, cars with bigger engines and more power should usually opt for the S/Cer cuz that's what they are made for. You don't slap S/Cers on V6ers or smaller cuz the engine isn't large enough to handle it and will result in power loss. Would be to hard on the engine to spin up the screws. Thats why you never see imports with S/Cers. They all have turbos. Whenever you see a small block V-8 in a production car, they all use S/Cers, not Turbo. I'm not a mech or engineer, so I don't know the technical explanation. I'm sure engineers do that for a reason. Maybe the V-8+ get more power out of the S/cers than if it had turbo? Look at the high end sports cars. The V-8s or larger will have a S/C. Anything smaller will generally have a turbo.
Then again I could be wrong....please don't flame me
It's only lagless, if the car's engine is tuned just right for the turbo. Some cars that get made with a turbo can sometimes suffer turbo lag...it's all in the setup. But from my experience, cars with bigger engines and more power should usually opt for the S/Cer cuz that's what they are made for. You don't slap S/Cers on V6ers or smaller cuz the engine isn't large enough to handle it and will result in power loss. Would be to hard on the engine to spin up the screws. Thats why you never see imports with S/Cers. They all have turbos. Whenever you see a small block V-8 in a production car, they all use S/Cers, not Turbo. I'm not a mech or engineer, so I don't know the technical explanation. I'm sure engineers do that for a reason. Maybe the V-8+ get more power out of the S/cers than if it had turbo? Look at the high end sports cars. The V-8s or larger will have a S/C. Anything smaller will generally have a turbo.
Then again I could be wrong....please don't flame me
6/23/05, 09:39 AM
#11
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My last car was a Thunderbird Super Coupe. Loved that car. I sold it when my GT FINALLY arrived. Forced induction by a belt always seemed better to me than using hot exhaust gas to spin a turbine at high RPM's
6/23/05, 12:30 PM
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Originally posted by tw0scoops123@June 23, 2005, 6:27 AM
It's only lagless, if the car's engine is tuned just right for the turbo. Some cars that get made with a turbo can sometimes suffer turbo lag...it's all in the setup. But from my experience, cars with bigger engines and more power should usually opt for the S/Cer cuz that's what they are made for. You don't slap S/Cers on V6ers or smaller cuz the engine isn't large enough to handle it and will result in power loss. Would be to hard on the engine to spin up the screws. Thats why you never see imports with S/Cers. They all have turbos. Whenever you see a small block V-8 in a production car, they all use S/Cers, not Turbo. I'm not a mech or engineer, so I don't know the technical explanation. I'm sure engineers do that for a reason. Maybe the V-8+ get more power out of the S/cers than if it had turbo? Look at the high end sports cars. The V-8s or larger will have a S/C. Anything smaller will generally have a turbo.
Then again I could be wrong....please don't flame me
It's only lagless, if the car's engine is tuned just right for the turbo. Some cars that get made with a turbo can sometimes suffer turbo lag...it's all in the setup. But from my experience, cars with bigger engines and more power should usually opt for the S/Cer cuz that's what they are made for. You don't slap S/Cers on V6ers or smaller cuz the engine isn't large enough to handle it and will result in power loss. Would be to hard on the engine to spin up the screws. Thats why you never see imports with S/Cers. They all have turbos. Whenever you see a small block V-8 in a production car, they all use S/Cers, not Turbo. I'm not a mech or engineer, so I don't know the technical explanation. I'm sure engineers do that for a reason. Maybe the V-8+ get more power out of the S/cers than if it had turbo? Look at the high end sports cars. The V-8s or larger will have a S/C. Anything smaller will generally have a turbo.
Then again I could be wrong....please don't flame me
Generally you are correct but there are numerous exceptions out there. The 1.6 liter I4 in the Mini Cooper S is supercharged and a couple of the AMG Mercedes cars have turbocharged V8's. (These are usually twin turbos).
I think the main reason that the imports have turbos installed aftermarket is that these cars are usually owned by younger owners with less money. Turbos are generally cheaper than superchargers. (Including parts and install costs.)
6/23/05, 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by tw0scoops123@June 23, 2005, 5:27 AM
It's only lagless, if the car's engine is tuned just right for the turbo. Some cars that get made with a turbo can sometimes suffer turbo lag...it's all in the setup. But from my experience, cars with bigger engines and more power should usually opt for the S/Cer cuz that's what they are made for. You don't slap S/Cers on V6ers or smaller cuz the engine isn't large enough to handle it and will result in power loss. Would be to hard on the engine to spin up the screws. Thats why you never see imports with S/Cers. They all have turbos. Whenever you see a small block V-8 in a production car, they all use S/Cers, not Turbo. I'm not a mech or engineer, so I don't know the technical explanation. I'm sure engineers do that for a reason. Maybe the V-8+ get more power out of the S/cers than if it had turbo? Look at the high end sports cars. The V-8s or larger will have a S/C. Anything smaller will generally have a turbo.
Then again I could be wrong....please don't flame me
It's only lagless, if the car's engine is tuned just right for the turbo. Some cars that get made with a turbo can sometimes suffer turbo lag...it's all in the setup. But from my experience, cars with bigger engines and more power should usually opt for the S/Cer cuz that's what they are made for. You don't slap S/Cers on V6ers or smaller cuz the engine isn't large enough to handle it and will result in power loss. Would be to hard on the engine to spin up the screws. Thats why you never see imports with S/Cers. They all have turbos. Whenever you see a small block V-8 in a production car, they all use S/Cers, not Turbo. I'm not a mech or engineer, so I don't know the technical explanation. I'm sure engineers do that for a reason. Maybe the V-8+ get more power out of the S/cers than if it had turbo? Look at the high end sports cars. The V-8s or larger will have a S/C. Anything smaller will generally have a turbo.
Then again I could be wrong....please don't flame me
6/23/05, 02:50 PM
#17
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Originally posted by Big D@June 23, 2005, 9:05 AM
SCs run on a belt so even if the engine is miss tuned by a lil ur still gona get power loss....i would go with a turbo charger....The sound from SC is so annoying sounds like an annoying scream IMO
SCs run on a belt so even if the engine is miss tuned by a lil ur still gona get power loss....i would go with a turbo charger....The sound from SC is so annoying sounds like an annoying scream IMO
Annoying scream?!?!?
Thats the scream of power buddy. You ever here one of those 03-04 Cobra's take off? God it is so beautiful 
For price sake and ease of purchasing a ready to bolt on kit I would go with a roots style S/C. The S/C are a bit more streetable than a Turbo.
It all depends on what your application is.
10/30/05, 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by ManEHawke@June 23, 2005, 5:43 AM
I'm not aware of all turbos and SC kits out there, but I do know of a turbo that was created that made virtually zero lag. Don't have the details on it, or if it could even be had on on our applications, but the technology is now there.
Superchargers havent made any amazing leaps&bounds from what I know of tech wise.
So in case that lagless turbo is ever available for the Mustang, it would be my choice hands down.
Other than that I just love the SC, just because. Not really sure why, but I'd get one if it convinced me on its capabilitites.
I'm not aware of all turbos and SC kits out there, but I do know of a turbo that was created that made virtually zero lag. Don't have the details on it, or if it could even be had on on our applications, but the technology is now there.
Superchargers havent made any amazing leaps&bounds from what I know of tech wise.
So in case that lagless turbo is ever available for the Mustang, it would be my choice hands down.
Other than that I just love the SC, just because. Not really sure why, but I'd get one if it convinced me on its capabilitites.
I'm not sure who makes it, but I know it is somewhere around $5,000-$10,000 for one.
BTW, don't mean to bump an old thread, I was just trying to find anything about turbocharger kits for the S197.
10/31/05, 07:17 AM
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I hear that Saleen has a great supercharger for the 05+ stang. There is an article/review on it (just the supercharger, not the car) at Mustangs and Fast Fords. They claim it can make some serious HP, especially if you use some higer pound pullies (8, 10). It might be worth taking a look at. They use only 3.5 lbs of boost on the S281-SC to get to 400hp at the rear wheels. (Saleen uses it on thier s281-E to make over 500hp with a pretty much stock engine after all )
)
