Suspension upgrade path?
1/3/09, 03:40 AM
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Suspension upgrade path?
Well I need help from you suspension gurus out there.
Here are my goals,
I want the car to be a daily driven car and I drive through very rough roads so lowering the crap out of it is a big nono.
The symptoms.
The car has a tendency to roll in turns, it rolls quite a bit but does not give up grip, however it does not inspire confidence. The other issue is that the car seems to skip around bumpy turns as its common with a solid rear car (knew this before buying the car).
The plans so far.
I want to install a Fays2 watts link to help with the hopscotching over rough turns and improve precision out of turns. I can actually feel the axle move from side to side. The roush lca's helped that quite a bit over stock but its not fully cured, it made the rear more predictable however.
The second thing I want to do is install stiffer sway bars or a stiffer sway bar. I prefer a bit of understeer but I still want way less body roll, this is where I need advice.
The third thing im looking into is a set of rear springs, I was looking at a very mild drop. Roush? Saleen? Advice on brand and model. I heard blueoval sells a very mild drop spring set designed for the parnelli jones mustang by saleen. Would these improve handling? Are the stiffer springs? or just slightly shorter?
Next step up is that I would love to get a set of adjustable shocks, been looking at the tokico d-spec ones. Question is will they work with stock height or near stock height springs?
Basically what I am trying to achieve is a well balanced and well mannered car that can still have some fun around the twistiest but serve me as a daily driver. Maybe its too much to ask, but I would like to get close to this goal. I understand that some suspension choices may increase NHV but I am prepared to deal with that as long as the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
Here are my goals,
I want the car to be a daily driven car and I drive through very rough roads so lowering the crap out of it is a big nono.
The symptoms.
The car has a tendency to roll in turns, it rolls quite a bit but does not give up grip, however it does not inspire confidence. The other issue is that the car seems to skip around bumpy turns as its common with a solid rear car (knew this before buying the car).
The plans so far.
I want to install a Fays2 watts link to help with the hopscotching over rough turns and improve precision out of turns. I can actually feel the axle move from side to side. The roush lca's helped that quite a bit over stock but its not fully cured, it made the rear more predictable however.
The second thing I want to do is install stiffer sway bars or a stiffer sway bar. I prefer a bit of understeer but I still want way less body roll, this is where I need advice.
The third thing im looking into is a set of rear springs, I was looking at a very mild drop. Roush? Saleen? Advice on brand and model. I heard blueoval sells a very mild drop spring set designed for the parnelli jones mustang by saleen. Would these improve handling? Are the stiffer springs? or just slightly shorter?
Next step up is that I would love to get a set of adjustable shocks, been looking at the tokico d-spec ones. Question is will they work with stock height or near stock height springs?
Basically what I am trying to achieve is a well balanced and well mannered car that can still have some fun around the twistiest but serve me as a daily driver. Maybe its too much to ask, but I would like to get close to this goal. I understand that some suspension choices may increase NHV but I am prepared to deal with that as long as the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
1/3/09, 11:07 AM
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Answering (in order of importance) some of your questions based on your goal.
1) Adjustable Spec-D's or Konis for sure. They will work with stock springs, but maybe not so well with really stiff (racing) springs.
2) Just about anything you do to the rear spring to get some drop will take away from understeer. Coil cut or partial is the poor boys solution. A lot of guys have gone with the Roush rear.
3) Get more roll stiffness by upgrading to a front and rear sway bar kit (like Steeda 555-1065), preferably with some adjustability front or rear so you can tune out what you do with the rear springs.
4) The watts link, though totally cool, may be over kill for maintaining lateral rear axle position for your needs, but if I decided to put one on I would go with the design used by Saleen. I personally think its a better solution and adds less unsprung weight to the rear axle. Since you are willing to accept NHV, why not go with a panhard bar with spherical rod ends and get the kit to beef up the panhard bar body support? Save the rest of the money for better tires and wheels. The axle skipping is a vertical accelerated mass and damping problem, not lateral support or position.
5) Get a good symmetrical front end alignment (i.e. both sides the same (caster, camber, toe)
6) If that still leaves you dissatisfied, then think about HD strut mounts, HD lower a-arm bushes, LCA with spherical bushes, UCA with HD bushes.
Some body roll is good as its a visual source of feedback how hard you are cornering (or not).
Any bumps in a turn will upset the cornering balance. You can't make it all go away, but over rebound dampened will make it worse.
1) Adjustable Spec-D's or Konis for sure. They will work with stock springs, but maybe not so well with really stiff (racing) springs.
2) Just about anything you do to the rear spring to get some drop will take away from understeer. Coil cut or partial is the poor boys solution. A lot of guys have gone with the Roush rear.
3) Get more roll stiffness by upgrading to a front and rear sway bar kit (like Steeda 555-1065), preferably with some adjustability front or rear so you can tune out what you do with the rear springs.
4) The watts link, though totally cool, may be over kill for maintaining lateral rear axle position for your needs, but if I decided to put one on I would go with the design used by Saleen. I personally think its a better solution and adds less unsprung weight to the rear axle. Since you are willing to accept NHV, why not go with a panhard bar with spherical rod ends and get the kit to beef up the panhard bar body support? Save the rest of the money for better tires and wheels. The axle skipping is a vertical accelerated mass and damping problem, not lateral support or position.
5) Get a good symmetrical front end alignment (i.e. both sides the same (caster, camber, toe)
6) If that still leaves you dissatisfied, then think about HD strut mounts, HD lower a-arm bushes, LCA with spherical bushes, UCA with HD bushes.
Some body roll is good as its a visual source of feedback how hard you are cornering (or not).
Any bumps in a turn will upset the cornering balance. You can't make it all go away, but over rebound dampened will make it worse.
Last edited by RadBOSS; 1/3/09 at 07:10 PM. Reason: comment
1/3/09, 11:51 AM
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I just installed rear Roush springs (stock fronts) for that very reason including the ability to purchase each axle separately along with not giving too drastic of drop. I ike the subtle look, but unable to give any ride feedback yet as the car is put away for the winter.
1/3/09, 02:07 PM
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I just installed rear Roush springs (stock fronts) for that very reason including the ability to purchase each axle separately along with not giving too drastic of drop. I ike the subtle look, but unable to give any ride feedback yet as the car is put away for the winter.
1/3/09, 03:05 PM
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Here's a link to the rear springs at the Roush site (p/n 401295)
http://store.roushperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=322
But shop around as there deals out there... I was lucky and picked up mine new in an unopened Roush box on ebay for $75 delivered
http://store.roushperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=322
But shop around as there deals out there... I was lucky and picked up mine new in an unopened Roush box on ebay for $75 delivered
1/3/09, 04:31 PM
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Jaguar, I'm doing something very similar. I decided on Eichbach Pro Kit springs, Koni Yellows, J&M LCAs, and the Fays2 Watts Link (in addition to new wheels and tires). Using the Steeda HD strut mounts in the front. I called Sam Strano and talked to him for about 30-40 minutes. The guy really knows his stuff, for suspension advice, there is probably no one better, and he's happy to talk to you and give you his very informed opinion about what you need and don't need, and what effect different parts will have, etc. He's a great resource, cool guy, very easy to talk to - shoot him a PM.
1/3/09, 06:13 PM
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Chiming in...
I like the Steeda Sport springs and the Tokico D-specs for daily driving. The rear shocks are shorter than stock, so as long as you plan to drop the rear, the D-Specs are perfect. A full Sport spring setup set on "soft" will give you a very plush ride, almost "Buick like" for long trips and daily driving.
The key to your setup having tighter handling would be the stiffer rear sway. You are definitely in the right mindset and headed in the right direction. The Watts link will be nice and solve your whole panhard b.s. issues by simply skipping them.
As for understeer, I prefer oversteer, so my rear end is stiff and I have Steeda Comp. springs. You will still have moderate understeer with just Tokicos and Sport springs, so you can use your rear sway to dial that to your preference. For that reason I would select an adjustable rear sway, possibly Steeda.
As for lowering, I have a CDC aggressive front chin and I have Steeda front springs. I do not hit anywhere. I assume you have a steep incline somewhere in your commute, otherwise a 3/4" drop in front will really help with handling as you lower your Center of Gravity. You can also use your alignment to adjust how "twitchy" the steering will be. If you want to use this as a DD I suggest making sure your alignment is back to the middle of the stock tolerance.
Hope this was helpful.
I like the Steeda Sport springs and the Tokico D-specs for daily driving. The rear shocks are shorter than stock, so as long as you plan to drop the rear, the D-Specs are perfect. A full Sport spring setup set on "soft" will give you a very plush ride, almost "Buick like" for long trips and daily driving.
The key to your setup having tighter handling would be the stiffer rear sway. You are definitely in the right mindset and headed in the right direction. The Watts link will be nice and solve your whole panhard b.s. issues by simply skipping them.
As for understeer, I prefer oversteer, so my rear end is stiff and I have Steeda Comp. springs. You will still have moderate understeer with just Tokicos and Sport springs, so you can use your rear sway to dial that to your preference. For that reason I would select an adjustable rear sway, possibly Steeda.
As for lowering, I have a CDC aggressive front chin and I have Steeda front springs. I do not hit anywhere. I assume you have a steep incline somewhere in your commute, otherwise a 3/4" drop in front will really help with handling as you lower your Center of Gravity. You can also use your alignment to adjust how "twitchy" the steering will be. If you want to use this as a DD I suggest making sure your alignment is back to the middle of the stock tolerance.
Hope this was helpful.
1/3/09, 09:46 PM
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3/4 inch drop would be the max I would consider. I bet my stock springs settled 3/4 inch after driving the rough roads I drive through.
Maybe its time to consider some springs for the front as well. I just dont want to rub on speed bumps and keep as close to ride height as possible.
As for Sam Strano, who is he? I am afraid I dont know the guy. I would be glad to speak to him providing the advice is good.
Maybe its time to consider some springs for the front as well. I just dont want to rub on speed bumps and keep as close to ride height as possible.
As for Sam Strano, who is he? I am afraid I dont know the guy. I would be glad to speak to him providing the advice is good.
1/3/09, 09:56 PM
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Here's a link to the rear springs at the Roush site (p/n 401295)
http://store.roushperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=322
But shop around as there deals out there... I was lucky and picked up mine new in an unopened Roush box on ebay for $75 delivered
http://store.roushperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=322
But shop around as there deals out there... I was lucky and picked up mine new in an unopened Roush box on ebay for $75 delivered
1/4/09, 02:19 AM
#11
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I recommend going with a complete system such as Steeda (my personal choice) or Roush, Saleen, etc. Most (Steeda) suspension systems have been track tested and you can buy a piece at a time
1/4/09, 10:00 AM
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Dude, it you want to have it all (stiffer springs, control of ride height) then you should consider the following conversion:
http://www.ground-control-store.com/index.php
If you go to stiffer springs you generally need to go with more damping if you want your suspension to be all that it can be. Yeah you can get by with stock shocks for most daily driving with the Roush spring, but it won't work as well.
http://www.ground-control-store.com/index.php
If you go to stiffer springs you generally need to go with more damping if you want your suspension to be all that it can be. Yeah you can get by with stock shocks for most daily driving with the Roush spring, but it won't work as well.
1/4/09, 10:09 AM
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http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=441678
1/4/09, 11:28 AM
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http://forums.bradbarnett.net/search...archid=1320397
1/5/09, 07:29 PM
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I feel like I responding to a personal ad. 
I'm just a guy who happens to really like pony-cars and performance driving, and whose parents had a shop since before I was born.
I daily drive an '07 GT, my girlfriend has an '07 V-6. My best friend has an SGT that I've run the last few years of National level SCCA autocross. And I have 4 other very close friends with S197's too (and two of them had SN95's previously). I also have a *ducking* 2001 Z28, and that was preceded by a 1991 1LE version Z28.
I've won 5 SCCA Solo National Championships. The last 2 in an S197. I also have 4 SCCA ProSolo Series Championships (2 of which I won in a Mustang). I've spent time in MR2's, RX7's, Corvette's.... I just own pony-cars and unlike a lot of folks who do, I also like to corner carve. I've been on the cover of SCCA's magazine in the Shelby. I've been on the cover of GM High Tech Performance with my Camaro. I've done a suspension for that magazine as well which ended up 3.4 seconds a lap faster on a 1.3 mile road course than the baseline, and 6.9 faster when stickier tires were added to my suspension work.
I'm just a guy who happens to really like pony-cars and performance driving, and whose parents had a shop since before I was born.
I daily drive an '07 GT, my girlfriend has an '07 V-6. My best friend has an SGT that I've run the last few years of National level SCCA autocross. And I have 4 other very close friends with S197's too (and two of them had SN95's previously). I also have a *ducking* 2001 Z28, and that was preceded by a 1991 1LE version Z28.
I've won 5 SCCA Solo National Championships. The last 2 in an S197. I also have 4 SCCA ProSolo Series Championships (2 of which I won in a Mustang). I've spent time in MR2's, RX7's, Corvette's.... I just own pony-cars and unlike a lot of folks who do, I also like to corner carve. I've been on the cover of SCCA's magazine in the Shelby. I've been on the cover of GM High Tech Performance with my Camaro. I've done a suspension for that magazine as well which ended up 3.4 seconds a lap faster on a 1.3 mile road course than the baseline, and 6.9 faster when stickier tires were added to my suspension work.
1/6/09, 07:59 AM
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Sam gets my vote for advice also - I just contacted him with my own queries and he was very quick to respond with advice as well as other recommendations...
I did a lot of research before deciding on my short-list and will buy from Sam as well as he's one of the few suppliers who will ship to Europe.
I did a lot of research before deciding on my short-list and will buy from Sam as well as he's one of the few suppliers who will ship to Europe.
1/6/09, 05:59 PM
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I feel like I responding to a personal ad.
I'm just a guy who happens to really like pony-cars and performance driving, and whose parents had a shop since before I was born.
I daily drive an '07 GT, my girlfriend has an '07 V-6. My best friend has an SGT that I've run the last few years of National level SCCA autocross. And I have 4 other very close friends with S197's too (and two of them had SN95's previously). I also have a *ducking* 2001 Z28, and that was preceded by a 1991 1LE version Z28.
I've won 5 SCCA Solo National Championships. The last 2 in an S197. I also have 4 SCCA ProSolo Series Championships (2 of which I won in a Mustang). I've spent time in MR2's, RX7's, Corvette's.... I just own pony-cars and unlike a lot of folks who do, I also like to corner carve. I've been on the cover of SCCA's magazine in the Shelby. I've been on the cover of GM High Tech Performance with my Camaro. I've done a suspension for that magazine as well which ended up 3.4 seconds a lap faster on a 1.3 mile road course than the baseline, and 6.9 faster when stickier tires were added to my suspension work.
I'm just a guy who happens to really like pony-cars and performance driving, and whose parents had a shop since before I was born.
I daily drive an '07 GT, my girlfriend has an '07 V-6. My best friend has an SGT that I've run the last few years of National level SCCA autocross. And I have 4 other very close friends with S197's too (and two of them had SN95's previously). I also have a *ducking* 2001 Z28, and that was preceded by a 1991 1LE version Z28.
I've won 5 SCCA Solo National Championships. The last 2 in an S197. I also have 4 SCCA ProSolo Series Championships (2 of which I won in a Mustang). I've spent time in MR2's, RX7's, Corvette's.... I just own pony-cars and unlike a lot of folks who do, I also like to corner carve. I've been on the cover of SCCA's magazine in the Shelby. I've been on the cover of GM High Tech Performance with my Camaro. I've done a suspension for that magazine as well which ended up 3.4 seconds a lap faster on a 1.3 mile road course than the baseline, and 6.9 faster when stickier tires were added to my suspension work.
1/6/09, 06:06 PM
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looks like I have to call sam. My apologies to me asking about him.. I have not been in the performance scene for very long, at least suspension portion of it.
Pleasure to meet you sam.
Pleasure to meet you sam.
1/7/09, 07:31 PM
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Sam, I hope you don't mind me sharing these videos from the homepage of you website (www.stranoparts.com for those who don't know). I'm sure folks here will enjoy...
Please cut and paste links in your address bar:
Video's of my winning runs at this year's Solo Nationals can be found here in the Shelby GT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezeSk1UCcp0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGB2_yMeBPc
------------------------------------------
A clip a customer who stopped by took of my Camaro. Equipped with StainlessWorks Long-Tube headers, High-flow catted Y-pipe, and SLP Loudmouth exhaust:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nv_J...eature=related
-------------------------------------------------
Finally, some in-car footage taken inside my Camaro with a friend driving:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weWQHijkSU8
Please cut and paste links in your address bar:
Video's of my winning runs at this year's Solo Nationals can be found here in the Shelby GT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezeSk1UCcp0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGB2_yMeBPc
------------------------------------------
A clip a customer who stopped by took of my Camaro. Equipped with StainlessWorks Long-Tube headers, High-flow catted Y-pipe, and SLP Loudmouth exhaust:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nv_J...eature=related
-------------------------------------------------
Finally, some in-car footage taken inside my Camaro with a friend driving:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weWQHijkSU8