Stage III cams are in
5/3/07, 05:48 PM
#21
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I don't really know about return and non-return fuel systems but the return system must mean bringing back used fuel and I think non return means not bringing back already used fuel.
5/3/07, 05:48 PM
#22
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Nope you did, the kid took it the right way. I was in his shoes and was handed a 66' fastback when I was 16, of course I had to pay for it too, it wasn't cheap, but it was sure fun 
All I was doing was providing feedback on why people have a problem with him, most people don't pay attention to what's in the profile.
Carry on
All I was doing was providing feedback on why people have a problem with him, most people don't pay attention to what's in the profile.
Carry on
5/3/07, 05:58 PM
#24
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It's unused fuel coming back, but perfect I will send a PM tomorrow on the fuel system. Sorry, things got a little hectic again today. Especially late in the day!
CR
Tillman Speed
5/3/07, 06:21 PM
#27
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after looking at that graph, I'd say for drag racing it might be worth it, but for the street, you lost anywhere from 20-40 torque at any given point lower than about 5k RPM (can't tell, the graph is cut off at the bottom). It gained at the top, but loosing at the bottom probably makes it feel even more top heavy :-) Me, I like low end, but each to their own!
5/3/07, 07:09 PM
#28
The limiting thing on your cammed 3v is now the throttle body. Im notsure if its cost effective, but people are using the much larger GT500 throttle body on the 4.6. With the cams, there is a realistic chance it would REALLY benifit in the hp department.
Thread here.
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/2...+throttle+body
Thread here.
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/2...+throttle+body
5/3/07, 07:20 PM
#29
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Before getting cams, the ideal mods to support the airflow are C&L Racer,Tune,UDP's,GT500 TB & Spacer,CMDP's,Mufflers,High Flow Cats or O/R midpipe,and Longtube Headers.
5/3/07, 08:17 PM
#30
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Thread Starter
The limiting thing on your cammed 3v is now the throttle body. Im notsure if its cost effective, but people are using the much larger GT500 throttle body on the 4.6. With the cams, there is a realistic chance it would REALLY benifit in the hp department.
Thread here.
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/2...+throttle+body
Thread here.
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/2...+throttle+body
I'm sticking to my guns here: the only real "cost effective" mod for me at this point, short of a supercharger, is nitrous.
John
5/3/07, 08:20 PM
#31
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But that's America for you, everyone has an opinion.
John
5/4/07, 02:22 PM
#34
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First, the relevant mods: C&L CAI, custom SCT xcal tune (Woodbine Motorsports), BBK shorties, Bassani catted x-pipe, Mac axlebacks, FRPP 4.10 gears, Hurst shifter, Comp Stage 3 cams (with Comp springs and steel retainers), Steeda springs.
Without the cams, the car was dyno tuned to 301.76 hp, 317.62 torque
With the cams, the car was dyno tuned to 323.52 hp, 309.71 torque
Win some and lose some.
Before the cams, I hit max hp at 5000 RPM, now it's at 6000RPM.
The car idles at 8-900rpm, there is NO lope that I can hear. The tuner tried to get the idle rpm lower, but had problems with cold start and coming to a stop with the clutch depressed.
Were the cams worth it? The car definately feels stronger up top, that's for usre. But even so, I can't help feel 20hp for nearly 2 large just isn't worth it. I'm not sure it would be worth it if I did it myself either, although I would have liked the experience.
To regain some low end torque I have few options but I could get ported heads. But that's $1500 minimum, I believe, plus fluids, parts, labor, etc. I can't imagine even bothering at this point.
If I could go back in time, I would get everything I have now minus the cams. With the money saved, I'd put in two drive shaft loops, add a Zex kit, get a custom tune for the nitrous, and have a 375HP demon at the track and run twelves any day I wanted to. When the clutch went, I'd add a spec 2 and aluminum flywheel, and probably just do a Denny's driveshaft at the same time. In fact, that's EXACTLY what I'm going to do--I didn't deviate too much with this plan, but I could have paid for all of that with the money that went into the cams.
Bottom line, listen to your tuner, listen to your experts. Ford did a fantastic job with the system, and there is unfortunately at this time diminishing returns after the cold air kit/tune and 4.10 gears go in. Exhaust, udp, throttle bodies and delete plates do add some, but unless you're doing all your own labor, the bang for the buck doesn't seem to be there (although it does add up another 25hp, perhaps). I think nitrous a better option if S/C isn't in your immediate future.
If you want to be in the fast 10% or so, if you want a low ET at the track, go with a supercharger and a good tune. Hands down, the best bang for the buck.
I'll take a picture of the before/after graph if my camera can get a contrasty enough photo, and if not, I'll ask for a JPEG off the tuner's laptop. I can't make the track this week as all 3 local tracks have special programs running instead of test and tune, so that will have to wait until the weekend after next.
Comments welcome--even the "I told you so", but I'm bummed folks...
Xposted at Mustangforums.
John
Without the cams, the car was dyno tuned to 301.76 hp, 317.62 torque
With the cams, the car was dyno tuned to 323.52 hp, 309.71 torque
Win some and lose some.
Before the cams, I hit max hp at 5000 RPM, now it's at 6000RPM.
The car idles at 8-900rpm, there is NO lope that I can hear. The tuner tried to get the idle rpm lower, but had problems with cold start and coming to a stop with the clutch depressed.
Were the cams worth it? The car definately feels stronger up top, that's for usre. But even so, I can't help feel 20hp for nearly 2 large just isn't worth it. I'm not sure it would be worth it if I did it myself either, although I would have liked the experience.
To regain some low end torque I have few options but I could get ported heads. But that's $1500 minimum, I believe, plus fluids, parts, labor, etc. I can't imagine even bothering at this point.
If I could go back in time, I would get everything I have now minus the cams. With the money saved, I'd put in two drive shaft loops, add a Zex kit, get a custom tune for the nitrous, and have a 375HP demon at the track and run twelves any day I wanted to. When the clutch went, I'd add a spec 2 and aluminum flywheel, and probably just do a Denny's driveshaft at the same time. In fact, that's EXACTLY what I'm going to do--I didn't deviate too much with this plan, but I could have paid for all of that with the money that went into the cams.
Bottom line, listen to your tuner, listen to your experts. Ford did a fantastic job with the system, and there is unfortunately at this time diminishing returns after the cold air kit/tune and 4.10 gears go in. Exhaust, udp, throttle bodies and delete plates do add some, but unless you're doing all your own labor, the bang for the buck doesn't seem to be there (although it does add up another 25hp, perhaps). I think nitrous a better option if S/C isn't in your immediate future.
If you want to be in the fast 10% or so, if you want a low ET at the track, go with a supercharger and a good tune. Hands down, the best bang for the buck.
I'll take a picture of the before/after graph if my camera can get a contrasty enough photo, and if not, I'll ask for a JPEG off the tuner's laptop. I can't make the track this week as all 3 local tracks have special programs running instead of test and tune, so that will have to wait until the weekend after next.
Comments welcome--even the "I told you so", but I'm bummed folks...
Xposted at Mustangforums.
John
I agree to a point. your first increase in with a cai and tune. Your UDP's get you some more. At this point you are at about 20 bucks a hp increase. The 4.10's give the illusion of more power, but just a quicker accel.
For me the next step was LT headers and catted x pipe. That ran me on sale a grand for about 30 more hp so do the numbers. That HP is now running about 30 to 40 bucks a pop/per HP.
Then you get into what you called real dimishing returns........spend about 1600 - 1800 bucks for about 20 to 25 rwhp increase or 25 - 30 FWHP. So you are now spending per HP about 500.00. You add ported heads and so forth and it keeps going up.
But remember, you are getting close to 400 hp out of a 281 CID motor, non blown or juiced. That was unheard of in the 60's......carroll only got 306hp (non sae) out of the 289 or 350HP out of the 289 R motor. We are way above that.
A decent blower and your own install would run you between 4 and 5 K and get you about 450 HP. For a CAI, Pulley, Tune, LT Headers, Cams, you are about 400hp for about the same price (4K). I could not wait to save up 4 or 5 K........so I modded as I went.
The choice is yours
5/4/07, 02:56 PM
#35
Mach 1 Member
Thread Starter
I think the order in which you mod has some basis. I agree that early on the UDP and LT headers would have allowed nice incremental power increases at modest per dollar costs. But I already have a great sounding exhaust, albeit with shorties. Swapping out the shorties and xpipe for LTs and a short length midpipe does NOTHING for me, and I lose the investment in the original exhaust. For LESS than the cost of the LTs, I could have a double bottle Zex nitrous kit, warmer, opener and purge, autometer pressure gauge and 75 HP at the track when I need it.
Now, had I not been so eager to get an exhaust after the November 2005 article on shorties in the Mustang mag, I might have gone the long tube route.
Too late now, it does me little good at the cost point. I hope the lesson learned here for all folks on the non-aspirated plan is that for the money, cams and ported heads provide little return in investment unless your goal is mod-frenzy street cred.
If you intend to go nitrouus or S/C some day, then it's a little easier to swallow. Since I plan to add a zex kit within the next 6 weeks, I'm breathing a little easier.
John
John
5/5/07, 06:39 PM
#36
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The delete plates are about 15$ per hp and the pulleys are about 20$ per hp. Also, LT headers are about 56$ per hp. I would think that the next best hp per dollar mods you can buy besides nitrous are pulleys and delete plates. The delete plates take away the restriction of the butterfly valves. The pulleys allow your engine to spin easier and get to higher rpms quicker.
Another thing to put into mind,since you have cams,one limiting factor may be the size of your air intake. Maybe you should look into getting the C&l Racer. Brenspeed installed the stg. 3 comp cams with full bolt on's(C&L Street CAI,Tune,Mufflers,LT's,UDP's,Gears,and CMDP's),and they got 335rwhp. When they added the C&l Racer they got 5 more rwhp. A GT500 Throttle Body seems like a good idea too. Brenspeed had 340rwhp with cams,full bolt on's,and C&l Racer. They got 7 more rwhp when they installed the throttle body(it was a bbk TB though, but you should see similar gains with the GT500 TB).It seems like you are determined to go the nitrous route,so go for it if thats what you want. I am just stating my opinion,and by no means trying to direct how you mod your car.
Just to let you know, the reason people have trouble with aftermarket throttle bodies is that the aftermaket TB's use heavier TB gears. The stock TB has plastic gears. The PCM will sense the heavier gears and think that there is a load on the throttle body, so it will throw a code. The GT500 TB is the only one with stock plastic gears,so the GT500 one is the way to go.
Another thing to put into mind,since you have cams,one limiting factor may be the size of your air intake. Maybe you should look into getting the C&l Racer. Brenspeed installed the stg. 3 comp cams with full bolt on's(C&L Street CAI,Tune,Mufflers,LT's,UDP's,Gears,and CMDP's),and they got 335rwhp. When they added the C&l Racer they got 5 more rwhp. A GT500 Throttle Body seems like a good idea too. Brenspeed had 340rwhp with cams,full bolt on's,and C&l Racer. They got 7 more rwhp when they installed the throttle body(it was a bbk TB though, but you should see similar gains with the GT500 TB).It seems like you are determined to go the nitrous route,so go for it if thats what you want. I am just stating my opinion,and by no means trying to direct how you mod your car.
Just to let you know, the reason people have trouble with aftermarket throttle bodies is that the aftermaket TB's use heavier TB gears. The stock TB has plastic gears. The PCM will sense the heavier gears and think that there is a load on the throttle body, so it will throw a code. The GT500 TB is the only one with stock plastic gears,so the GT500 one is the way to go.
5/5/07, 08:29 PM
#37
I understand about the other aftermarket TBs. Folks have been reporting no problems with the GT500 TB. I think it runs about 300 bucks, but after doing a little more research, prob only talking another 20 hp at the most.
5/6/07, 12:15 PM
#38
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Well I really do have a mustang that my parents drive, I heavily research mods, I ask my parents to buy them, and I help with the installs. There is nothing wrong with that,right?
There is nothing wrong with that,right?
But you keep presenting information to people like you are an authority on the subject. You keep quoting HP numbers for mods based on reading about someone elses experience with that mod. You speak as if you ran a Mustang perormance shop and you can quote these facts from personal experience.
"well Brenspeed got 5 HP for this mod" or "you can get 35 HP from this mod".
In criminal court this is what we call "hearsay".....
Please keep in mind, I have been to Brenspeed, I have spent the entire day there in fact while Brent tuned my car. I think if I want to know what his results were, with a specific mod, I would ask him for his own results, and his opinion on why HE achieved those results..
Your interpretation while well intended is annoying.
Just because Joe blow gets 20 HP gain from long tubes, it does not mean every Mustang owner will get the exact same result. There are many variables that influence results from modifications.
So, that being said, keep up your learning and save some money and maybe when you are old enough to drive you can tell us how fast your car is from the mods you did to your car.
5/6/07, 12:27 PM
#39
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Mustangfan123 - You show hope for your generation! Instead of slapping stickers and fart cans on Civics you are actually using a decent platform and doing your research. That puts you way ahead of your peers.
5/6/07, 02:38 PM
#40
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Uber pony, I do not base my facts on just one person, but I do give examples on what to expect. I never just take 1 persons gain and say,"hey everybody, he got 15hp from headers so that is what you will make. I say,"everybody,you should expect to get 15-20hp from headers." I just research stuff and post the most common results that I see. Like with brenspeed, I am giving an example. I saw they got 7rwhp from a TB,and someone else got 11rwhp,but I say 8-10hp,which is about average gains for a TB. Or with like the cams,most people get 30-35hp,so thats what I base my results on.