blaster

I work with computers every day as part of my job...mainly software. Now that I own an SCT XCal 2 I'm a little surprised at how caveman-like it really is. I mean seriously, you don't need this to be a hardware device but I could see where some people might prefer that. What surprises me is that no one (at least that I'm aware of) has a simpler package. All you really need is a software application and a cable that has USB on one end and the ODB deal on the other end. Make that cable and make the software and you just use your laptop. Instead they make a hardware device that has to have a special circuit board, memory and all kinds of stuff that could be bi-passed easily with just software and an adapter cable.
And the other thing...yeah I bought it so I shouldn't cry after spilled milk...but there is what? ...3 manufacturers of these devices so far?
Maybe there is something funny going on that keeps the price of these caveman devices at around $400?
Just an observation.

Infinity

VW has been using laptop tuning for years. I guess we just have to wait untill someone develops it. WHy don't you do it?

karman

By the time my warranty runs out, they should have laptop programmers. That's what I'm hoping for.

06GTwJUICE

Can't be too simple if only 3 people are doing it.

just my .02

Cleveland

you are looking at it all wrong, not everybody wants to use a laptop with proper software to tune a car or has one for that matter. I very much love the fact that these devices are very portable and compact, unlike a laptop computer. Anyways, these devices are trouble free uploading and downloading of tune files, adding complication through a windows based system is asking for a lot of trouble.

Not even the people that do tuning for a living bicker about using these devices.

Nice thoughts though.

-Dan

don_w

+1

And it beats the hell out of burning chips.

emperorjordan

they are right^^.

people like the simplicity.

all the XCAL is, is a USB to serial interface with a bit of onboard memory, and a really basic (8086 based, I believe) processor that runs the OS on it. So with a serial port on a computer, you could easly write an app to interface with the OBDII.

FireFighterHill

Id love to get a cable and software to do data logging. That way maybe doug or other tuners could make us even better tunes with out having to do it on a dyno or driving cross country to there shops.

Cleveland

They wouldnt be able to create better tunes due to having datalog software on a laptop and bypassing the handheld all together. Their software writes the tune to the handheld and the handheld is the means of reflashing the ECU.

PEOPLE, PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE TUNERS OUT THERE THAT CAN PROVIDE YOU WITH GREAT CUSTOM TUNES (NOT INTERNET SENT) AND THEY ARE NOT ALL CALLED DOUG.

No offense to the online tuners but they do let leave somethings to be desired.

-Dan

neil07gt

There is already alot of opensource software on the net to let you read and log and manipulate obd2 information with your PC. But basically an extra device is required--Jump to the end of my message for a link. Keep reading for all the technical details.

The obd2 interface is not directly compatable with your PC or Palm interfaces. To connect your PC or Palm device to your car's obd2 interface, you need a bridge device. The bridge device contains enough circuitry to handle the conversion between the manufacturer's obd2 protocol and your PC or Palm's serial port. I believe usb models work the same way and use a serial-over-usb driver which lets the usb connector appear as a serial device.

The bridge device is usually called a scantool. A scan tool is not that expensive. A multiprotocol unit which will let you connect your pc to any american car made after 1996, can be purchased for about $140. A single protocol unit is cheaper but it will work with only one brand (i.e. ford).

If you want to use your PC or Palm device as your own tuner, you will need some knowledge of Fords proprietary data. Because the stuff that you read and write using your serial port looks like this (raw data):
0: 47 50 30 30 52 35 35
1: 42 31 32 33 34 35 36

This is the nice stuff that the Diablo and SCT tuners handle for you. As i said at the beginning there is alot of information and open source software out there, use Google to find it. At the risk of stating the obvious, be careful when you begin tinkering at this low level its easy to screw something up and make your vehicle inoperable. So operate on your buddy's ricer first, before touching your Mustang. :-)


An OBD-II scantool for your PC:
http://www.scantool.net/products/pro...products_id=21

Cheese302

i prefer the idea of using the laptop based syste, as a converted (somewhat) vw guy, and after attending waterfest this year. the laptop systems are awesome, a real screen to looka the information on. and the fact that they are now uploading chips through java apps in an internet explorer. really sweet setup.

schmads

Dan is correct in that these devices allow you to do the tuning without the need for the laptop. I think there is a larger market for that device than for a laptop-based tuner.

On the other hand, I do agree that there is a market for laptop-tuning (as mentioned by the VW guys), and it is strange that there doesn't seem to be a polished commercial product to essentially do the XCal2 functions without the XCal2.

Scantool (or something similar) looks like the piece you'd need, and then you'd have to re-write all of the XCal2 code onto the laptop (java, C++, whatever, but it wouldn't be quick or easy). The Scantool could probably be made very cheaply from simple pieces, but so could the XCal2. People are paying that price because they don't have the know-how to make it themselves.

The open-source software mentioned could probably be used with a scantool and then do most of this stuff. In the end, though, there is then no support. What do you do when you hose your car? At least with SCT, you have someone to talk to when you get a bad tuner, and if you get a tune from someone, you can talk to them and expect them to help you, because you bought a product from them.

In short, I expect that there is no technical reason for there not to be a laptop tuner product. As an open-source style product, I would be wary of using it, simply because you get no support besides what you can find on the internet. Of course, this forum is an example of internet support that is worth more than any support you get from a dealership (just in terms of collective knowledge and helpfulness), so maybe there's nothing wrong with that, either.

I think that there is space for a well-supported commercial product that skips the SCT and uses the laptop directly. I bet it would cost $399, too. Can't the SCT XCal2 do data-logging and such? It seems like it can fulfill both roles. It can work standalone, and also when hooked up to a laptop for loading new tunes, data-logging, etc. Please correct me on these specifics if I am mistaken, of course.

blaster

Everyone has some good points. I do see the advantage of the smaller handheld device but it's so limited for it's cost. I mean you can almost buy a desktop PC for $400 these days.
Not totally unrelated, but why don't we have the ability to backup and restore our stock settings? You can back up your stock settings but it makes a *.DAT file and a *.IDX file to go with it. You can't restore to the device from those files...unless maybe you send the files and device back to SCT or your dealer. What's up with that?

Cleveland

I cant speak for SCT and their file type but I can backup in the same type and upload or download at my will with the Predator.

-Dan

rakkassan34

As long as there are monkeys like us who'll pay $400 for these $10 tuners not only will they keep selling them at $400 but they'll put a cool blue backlight or paint them fancy colors and sell them for more.

Cleveland

excuse me but there is more than $10 worth of value in those tuners, way more but apparently you dont understand what it takes to bring something to the public and then to support it.

Its people like you that are the cause for the ruined economy, pony up the cash.

-Dan

rakkassan34

I did pony up the cash (I'm not smart enough to tune my car with a laptop) I even paid $300.00 for two pieces of shiny steel pipe to make my car louder (loudmouths)

blaster

Really?...well I guess I will poke around at the SCT site forums. Surely someone has asked this question about backing up, in their forums.

blaster

I found this at the SCT site. So I guess that's the way it works. You can backup your stock settings using XC2dump.exe but it looks like you would have to send your device and files back to SCT to have them restored. That kinda sucks but at least you *can* backup your stock settings. Seems like it would be a good idea for everyone who owns an XCal 2 to backup their stock settings.


-------------------------------------------
we can take care of replacing a stock tune if anything happens.

But you can pull a copy of the stock tune out using the XC2dump.exe program, included in the latest copy of LiveLinkUpdate.

navigate to the c: program files, SCT, SCTLivelink folder, and you will find this program, it will pull a copy of the file off, and save it as a IDX and a DAT file. Note, you cant put this file on other Xcalibrators, but it can be used by us incase there are any issues with your device, or to add support for vehicels we don't have stock reads from.
Ryan
----------------------------------------------

shaun_beauchamp

+1 for handhelds.

The hardware associated with the handheld is not the expensive part. Paying some young brainiak (several of you programmers already chimed in) to sit at a desk, staring at a monitor, for months on end isn't cheap!

Good programmers get about $100 to $250 per hour. Take the 80 or so data acquisition tables linked to the OBDII and modify each to work harmoniously to provide extra HP without detrimental effects, and you have yourself a "simple tuner".

It takes a company at least 1 year to perfect a simple tuner and you have at minimum 2 braniaks working around the clock. So $400 is just each persons little contribution to the whole project. Sure there's profit, but blowing up my engine with my laptop is a heck of a lot more expensive!