wjones14

Not sure if this belongs here or in the Warranty/Service forum, but I'm posting here because I used the kit to replace the original DOT 3 brake fluid with Ate Super Blue DOT 4 Racing Fluid. So that's a mod, right?

This is the brake fluid:

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/acces...tail.jsp?ID=21

And this is the Motive Power Bleeder:

http://store.motiveproducts.com/late...-0108-p43.aspx

Once a year, I take the '05 Mustang to the track for HPDE events. I went to Lime Rock and Loudon NH with my car basically factory stock and had no problems at either track, though the brakes did fade a little at Loudon. Last year I swapped out the stock brake pads with Hawk HPS and went to Watkins Glen, which is a much higher speed track, and after a few laps and hard braking from about 130 mph, the brake pedal almost went to the floor at one point. Pretty scary. When I got back to the paddock area, the more experienced guys told me that the fluid simply boiled, and for track days it's really a good idea to go with higher temp brake fluid. The Super Blue was what most of the other guys went with.

So a friend told me that he used the Motive power bleeder kit for his BMW and it worked perfectly. I bought the 0108 Kit that comes with the 1108 adapter kit for late model Ford/GM along with 2 liters of the Super Blue fluid, and went to this friend's house today to bleed the brakes and prepare for Watkins Glen next week (July 12).

I will say this about the Motive product - when you open the box and look at the kit, it all appears to be high quality. The instructions are printed on the bottle itself, where I would have rather had an instruction sheet, but at least there are instructions. The 1108 adapter kit is a hose that attaches to the power bleeder bottle, and the other end is a cap that temporarily replaces the Ford master cylinder cap while you are doing the bleeding.

The instructions say to attach the adapter cap to the master cylinder with the bottle empty, and do a test run by pumping the bottle pressure to 10 psi and ensure it holds. In our case, it did hold, but only for a minute or so. There really wasn't any possible adjustment - the cap is not threaded - instead it's one of those deals where you turn it like 1/8 turn or so and it locks.

So we filled the bottle with 2 liters of the Super Blue fluid, used a turkey baster to suck out as much old fluid from the master cylinder as possible, hooked it up, and pumped the pressure up to 12 psi. I was pumping the bottle and keeping an eye on the pressure gauge while my buddy was at the right rear wheel doing to the bleeding. After a couple minutes, the blue fluid started coming out at the wheel and it all looked great! We moved on to the left rear wheel, and started on that. Meanwhile, I looked at the adapter cap on the master cylinder and it looked like it was dripping a little. Then I looked under the car and saw a pretty good sized puddle of fluid on the ground that had leaked out. WTF?!

We stopped right there, released the pressure on the bottle slowly to minimize any more leaking, and took stock of the situation. Judging by the size of the puddle, I'm going to estimate that about 8 ounces of fluid had leaked out before we realized it.

We then pulled off the adapter cap. It comes with two gaskets, but we could only get one of them in there. We assumed that the second gasket was a spare, but the adapter itself has no instructions. We compared the Motive gasket to the original Ford master cylinder gasket, and the Motive gasket is about twice the thickness of the Ford gasket. Not only that, but the Ford gasket is a solid rubber material, while the Motive gasket is like a spongy foam rubber that seems to be porous... We tried to jam the second Motive gasket in the adapter cap, but it wouldn't go in there.

We hooked it up a second time, and made sure it was as secure as it could be, pumped it up to 12 psi again, and it started leaking. The only way we could stop it was to put hand pressure on top of the adapter - but then it became impossible to pump the bottle.

In the end, we resorted to the old fashioned method - I got in the car and pumped the brake pedal and held it, while my friend did the bleeding. Rinse and repeat for each wheel until the clean blue fluid started coming out. The job is done now and the brake pedal feels firm and proper like it should.

The Motive product seems to be very good, and would be easy to use if the adapter held the pressure properly. It's just that the adapter and/or gasket material is poorly designed, as far as 2005+ Mustangs go.

I feel bad for my buddy who got the brake fluid on the concrete pad outside his garage, but he had Speedy Dry on hand to soak it up and said it was no problem. I'm not happy that I spent $50 on the bleeder and it couldn't do the job. I'm also not happy about the brake fluid flowing through the engine compartment - it got on some painted surfaces (I think) and made a general mess. When I brought the car home, I put it back up on jack stands and got under there to wipe it all away as good as I could, but there are some places that are just unreachable. Hopefully it doesn't cause any harm.

Has anyone else had this same experience? Or is there a trick to make the adapter hold the pressure?

wjones14

I will say this about Motive - they stand behind their products. I emailed their customer support about the problems I had, and got a very prompt reply. I'm going to take them up on the offer of the metal cap, and will update this thread once I receive and test it. Here's the email they sent me:

"Hi Bill,


Sorry about the problem. I don't know how many 2005+ Mustang owners use our products but I've talked to a few personally and all the feedback has been positive.


Sometime tolerances stack up in the wrong directions and you can't get a seal. Brake fluid reservoirs are not a critical component on a car so the manufacturing quality is pretty sloppy. Our caps are made on a CNC machine and the tolerances are very tight. The reason there are two gaskets in the kit is they are different thicknesses which allows a user to swap gaskets to get the best seal. The cap was originally designed for GM use and we found some cars needed a thinner gasket. You should use the gasket that gives the best fit and if you can't get a tight seal you really shouldn't put fluid in the tank as it will result in spillage, if it won't hold air it's not going to hold fluid.


We do offer a metal version of that cap. The plastic cap tabs can flex on reservoirs where it is hard to get the cap on even using the thinner gasket and at higher pressures the tabs flex resulting in a leak. This happens rarely but I have seen it personally. The metal cap doesn't have this issue.


So bottom line is you have two options


1) send us back everything and we'll refund your money via a check - please send a copy of your summit receipt (normally I'd want you to just return it to summit but I want to get the cap back quickly so I can look at it. Summit usually sends us the few warranty returns once or twice a year and I have no idea when they will be sending any back)


or


2) I can send you the metal version and I'd like the plastic one back so I can do some testing on it.


Let me know what you want to do."

RedDragon777

keep us posted, i have been wanting to flush my brake system with some Motul or Super Blue but most places down here will not flush the system with anything but their product so i am kind of screwed.

tr6nut

Speed Bleeders work better, are cheaper, and are less complicated to use (and with no leaks)

wjones14

I don't have experience with speed bleeders, but the Motive power bleeder is not at all complicated. Here's the procedure:

1. Fill the power bleeder bottle with new fluid (for a Mustang use 2 liters).
2. Remove the Ford master cylinder cap, and replace with the power bleeder adapter (the adapter is at the end of the hose attached to the power bleeder bottle).
3. Use the handle on the power bleeder bottle to pressurize the bottle and brake system (for Mustang, between 10 and 15 psi).
4. Attach a hose to the bleeder fitting on the right rear wheel (farthest from the master cylinder), open the fitting to bleed the old fluid out. Shut the bleeder fitting when the new fluid is coming out clean and bubble-free. Repeat for the other 3 wheels.

I'm not saying that speed bleeders aren't less complicated - I'm just saying that the Motive power bleeder process is not at all complicated. Out of curiosity, how are speed bleeders simpler?

wjones14

I will keep you posted Dragon.

Even if you don't buy a speed bleeder or a Motive power bleeder, there is always the old-fashioned two-person method. It is not really that complicated or something to be afraid of. You don't need any special tools either. For the 2005+ Mustang, you need to get the car off the ground, get all 4 wheels off, a 7/16" box wrench for the bleeder fittings, clear plastic bleeder tubing about 18" long, a bottle to capture the old fluid, and optionally a turkey baster to remove as much old fluid as possible from the master cylinder when starting the process. This is a good description of the process in detail:

http://www.zeckhausen.com/bleeding_brakes.htm

2k7gtcs

The Motive Bleeder kit worked for me. But I guess I was lucky. I saw there were two gaskets and I used the thicker one and mine sealed good for me with no leaks.

I guess there may just be a difference in tolerances or something. I was fortunate.

tr6nut

Speed Bleeders are replacement bleed screws with a spring loaded ball valve inside. You replace your stock bleed screws with Speed Bleeders. To bleed, you open the speed bleeder about a 1/4 turn, attach a hose, and push in the brake pedal. After you're done bleeding a caliper, you close the valve and remove the hose.

TacoBill

I was the guinea pig whith JedCranium's Power Bleeder when I installed my front BBK. Mine also leaked like a siv all over the place. Like Gary mentioned, the key is to only use one of those gaskets, then all was good to go.

I sprayed a good amount of Purple Power and flushed the area with water. Last time I looked at the firewall and under the master cylinder, all was good, no paint damage.

shanec

Don't you still have DOT 3 in the system by way of the clutch line?

wjones14

That's a good question and I don't know the answer for sure. I can say that the fluid coming out at all four bleeders was 100% blue-colored ATE Super Blue, and the master cylinder is full of Super Blue as well. So if the clutch fluid comes from the same supply, then my clutch is now also DOT 4 I'm guessing. Anyone know for sure?

shanec

I know for sure that if the clutch didn't get bled (and there's no bleeder valve except in an '05), then there is still DOT3 in the system. Whether or not the DOT3 from the clutch would somehow leave the clutch, get back to the reservoir, and mix with the DOT4 - I dunno.

jaguarking11

It should actualy. I pumped up the clutch when I did my brakes. At first it feld weird then it firmed up and returned to normal after bleeding.

wjones14

When the Motive adapter cap started leaking and we resorted to the old-fashioned method of pumping the brake pedal, we actually used the instructions in the 2005 Mustang Service Manual for Brake System - Component Bleeding, pages 206-00-1 to 206-00-4. The procedure does not mention the hydraulic clutch system at all.

It looks like the slave cylinder for the clutch shares the reservoir with the brake master cylinder, but for some reason, it is not necessary to also bleed the clutch when bleeding the brakes according to Ford's manual.

So I'm not going to worry about it, and as I said, the fluid we saw at all four wheels and in the master cylinder looks to be 100% blue.

wjones14

UPDATE: A couple days after emailing Motive tech support I received a replacement adapter cap in the mail. This one works!

For the 2005 Mustang, the Motive Power Bleeder kit is model MVP-0108. The kit includes the 1108 (plastic) adapter cap:

http://store.motiveproducts.com/late...-1108-p42.aspx

The replacement cap that Motive sent is the 1118 (metal) adapter cap:

http://store.motiveproducts.com/blac...-1118-p80.aspx

The 1118 cap is sturdy aluminum about 3/16" thick or 5mm. The tabs do not flex at all. After seeing this, I checked the 1108 plastic cap and was easily able to flex the tabs without much finger pressure at all.

I attached the new 1118 adapter cap to the master cylinder (using the thinner gasket of the two that were included), and with a dry Power Bleeder bottle, pumped the pressure to 10 lbs. I left it there for 10 minutes and it held.

I'm going to reply to Motive's personal email, tell them that the metal cap works while the plastic one didn't, and ask if this new cap would be included with the 0108 Bleeder kits, or if owners could request the replacement.

So now, I would easily recommend the Motive Power Bleeder for bleeding 2005+ Mustangs, but only if the 1118 metal adapter cap is included. The whole thing is quality with this cap.

RRRoamer

I never had any problems with my bleeder. I have the adapters for my Mustang, the generic plate top adapter for my 1981 Ford F100 pickup (old school metal reservoir) and the generic round opening adapter for my sister's 1996 Ford Thunderbird. My brother has also used this on his 2005 Ford F250SD as well as his 2001 Suburban. All vehicles flushed perfectly with no leaks at all.

For bleeding and flushing a brake system, I can't think of a better system out there. Not for the price at any rate!

Oh, I also used on my bud's 2006 Jeep Liberty as well for a full flush and bleed. Again, no leaks!

Starfire

Well I just sent them an email too as I just did all my brakes, new rotors, pads and fluid. It was leaking like mad, I ended up just filling the tank on the car and just using the motive bleeder for air pressure, worked OK.

rampant racing

i just ordered the cap myself 5minutes ago.i made my own pressure bleeder from an old scott air pack escape pack.it is a small 1.5 litre bottle.i have pressure gauge and a regulator aswell as two small ball valves to make sure the pressure is proper.it works fantastic but the cap wouldn't hold.it uses compressed air from a compressor but i also put a schrader valve on it so it can also be pumped up with a foot pump or bicycle pump.it's pretty slick.$25.00 to make but this cap is another $41.00 with shipping so $66.00 total.still a good deal.these bottles are very thick aluminum and made to hold over 2000psi so it is very strong and i will have no worries about ever breaking it.

wjones14

When I replied to Motive's email and told them that the 1118 machined aluminum cap worked where the plastic 1108 cap did not work (for me), I asked if the 1118 would ever be optional with the MVP-0108 Power Bleeder. The reply was very nice and cordial, but he said that so far, for the amount of kits they have sold for 2005+ Mustangs, they have had very few complaints like mine. So, he said that the data simply does not support the need for the aluminum adapter cap.

All I can say is they treated me well, and I highly recommend them and their kit, considering their personal level of prompt support. They seem very motivated to maintain a reputation for quality, so if you buy the kit, try the dry test with 10-15 lbs and see if it holds for 5 or 10 minutes. If so, you're gold. If not, email them and I bet they will step to the plate and help out.

rampant racing

i actually spoke to them on the phone today and the girl was very nice to talk to.i told her my plastic cap was leaking and she asked if aluminum one was a retrofit.i said yes but i told her the bleeder was my own design and i had used a stock cap and it leaked.i have the 1118 cap on the way.