MGW or Tri-Ax shifter 07 GT
10/19/07, 09:36 PM
#21
I'm not sure I need the "Mother of All Shifters", I mean at first I just wanted the **** taller, considerably taller. I put a MGW ball on and I like it, feels great and it's a fraction taller but not much at all. MGW used to make a taller Gripper but I guess they never made it for the S197.
The stock shifter feels sloppy even at regular speeds. Most of the time it's OK but sometimes the 1-2 shift feels clunky like something is not aligned. And again I mean at regular speeds, not powershifting at all. Also I mean clunky not notchy, notchy I can handle, I even like it because it feels positive which is why I am interested in the Hurst Comp Plus I guess. That and the taller handle that's available.
If I could put a tall Hurst handle on the MGW it might be worth the extra cash for the best of both worlds but I don't intend on racing so again I'm not sure if I need the "Mother of All Shifters".
I thought there was supposed to be many handle/**** options for the MGW but really all I can see is that the supplied handle can be mounted a little higher. Are there any taller handles for the MGW?
The stock shifter feels sloppy even at regular speeds. Most of the time it's OK but sometimes the 1-2 shift feels clunky like something is not aligned. And again I mean at regular speeds, not powershifting at all. Also I mean clunky not notchy, notchy I can handle, I even like it because it feels positive which is why I am interested in the Hurst Comp Plus I guess. That and the taller handle that's available.
If I could put a tall Hurst handle on the MGW it might be worth the extra cash for the best of both worlds but I don't intend on racing so again I'm not sure if I need the "Mother of All Shifters".
I thought there was supposed to be many handle/**** options for the MGW but really all I can see is that the supplied handle can be mounted a little higher. Are there any taller handles for the MGW?
10/19/07, 11:28 PM
#22
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I'm not sure I need the "Mother of All Shifters", I mean at first I just wanted the **** taller, considerably taller. I put a MGW ball on and I like it, feels great and it's a fraction taller but not much at all. MGW used to make a taller Gripper but I guess they never made it for the S197.
The stock shifter feels sloppy even at regular speeds. Most of the time it's OK but sometimes the 1-2 shift feels clunky like something is not aligned. And again I mean at regular speeds, not powershifting at all. Also I mean clunky not notchy, notchy I can handle, I even like it because it feels positive which is why I am interested in the Hurst Comp Plus I guess. That and the taller handle that's available.
If I could put a tall Hurst handle on the MGW it might be worth the extra cash for the best of both worlds but I don't intend on racing so again I'm not sure if I need the "Mother of All Shifters".
I thought there was supposed to be many handle/**** options for the MGW but really all I can see is that the supplied handle can be mounted a little higher. Are there any taller handles for the MGW?
The stock shifter feels sloppy even at regular speeds. Most of the time it's OK but sometimes the 1-2 shift feels clunky like something is not aligned. And again I mean at regular speeds, not powershifting at all. Also I mean clunky not notchy, notchy I can handle, I even like it because it feels positive which is why I am interested in the Hurst Comp Plus I guess. That and the taller handle that's available.
If I could put a tall Hurst handle on the MGW it might be worth the extra cash for the best of both worlds but I don't intend on racing so again I'm not sure if I need the "Mother of All Shifters".
I thought there was supposed to be many handle/**** options for the MGW but really all I can see is that the supplied handle can be mounted a little higher. Are there any taller handles for the MGW?
If you want a taller shift **** here is the Momo Super Anatomic, I loved this thing on my 911's. The SA has been around for a long time and is available with wood, chrome, satin silver and various colors of leather. I don't have the height measurements to compare it with the similar stock S197GT's **** but the SA is taller and has more length and "girth" and we can all use a little more of that!
HTH!
10/20/07, 12:10 AM
#23
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I'm going to attempt to answer the last two post here.
Kelly.......... at this time I don't believe there are any taller shifter handles for the MGW. I have submitted several sketches to George for consideration. See the 'MGW Flat Handle Poll' in this forum for the designs. I suggested that the handles be approx. 3/4 in longer than the present handles.
Chip.......... there are two or three places that the MGW has torsional load relief...
(1) MGW_2986m - the support block is free to pivot on the steel shaft when the trans torques under load... before installation this block will rotate 360% on the end of the shaft.
(2) MGW_3121m - the shifter main shaft (where the adjustment for the throw length is made) and the trans shifter rod is mounted is free to pivot (move) during shifting.
(3) MGW_3110m - the rubber insulator on the end of the steel support shaft is mounted in recesses in the shifter main plate and mounting block. This should allow some very minimal movement of the shaft under load.
If I'm in error on any of this, George at MGW will set me and you both straight as to the engineering design built into his product. I am not an engineer and don't claim to be...
This is my definition of how the MGW shifter is different from the other aftermarket shifters.
Bobby M.
Kelly.......... at this time I don't believe there are any taller shifter handles for the MGW. I have submitted several sketches to George for consideration. See the 'MGW Flat Handle Poll' in this forum for the designs. I suggested that the handles be approx. 3/4 in longer than the present handles.
Chip.......... there are two or three places that the MGW has torsional load relief...
(1) MGW_2986m - the support block is free to pivot on the steel shaft when the trans torques under load... before installation this block will rotate 360% on the end of the shaft.
(2) MGW_3121m - the shifter main shaft (where the adjustment for the throw length is made) and the trans shifter rod is mounted is free to pivot (move) during shifting.
(3) MGW_3110m - the rubber insulator on the end of the steel support shaft is mounted in recesses in the shifter main plate and mounting block. This should allow some very minimal movement of the shaft under load.
If I'm in error on any of this, George at MGW will set me and you both straight as to the engineering design built into his product. I am not an engineer and don't claim to be...
This is my definition of how the MGW shifter is different from the other aftermarket shifters.
Bobby M.
10/20/07, 05:58 AM
#24
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Hi anthony05gt,
Finally, someone who has actually tried to consider how the MGW might work differently than the other shifter mechanisms available. Because I have not actually installed one or seen the MGW shifter in person and nobody here has one I can look at, touch and take apart to understand what is different about it I been trying to collect design details not apparent in the images I've seen. Sure I've seen photos and Taco Bill's install images but still do not understand what can possibly make the MGW shifter work better. From a mechanical design point of view the MGW shifter works exactly the same as all of the other shifters on the market with the exception of the ability to adjust shift throw distance and shift **** location.
Are you are saying that the transmission side mount is free to rotate with some torsional load on the front transmission mount shaft? Can you explain how this additional degree of freedom alters the misalignment between the transmission's shift selector and the shifter body? From what I can see as the engine and transmission are loaded they rotate and the problem seems to be that the shifter's fulcrum while in reasonably good alignment with the transmission's selector rail with the engine in a static position is out of alignment when the engine puts the drivetrain under load. How does the torsion bar correct this problem?
One other question, does the bottom of the MGW shifter's shift lever (where the transmission linkage arm mounts), rotate freely as it does with the O.E. style shifters (I.E. all other shifters)? I don't mean the linkage I mean the square linkage mount rotating around the shifter handle axis.
Cheers!
Finally, someone who has actually tried to consider how the MGW might work differently than the other shifter mechanisms available. Because I have not actually installed one or seen the MGW shifter in person and nobody here has one I can look at, touch and take apart to understand what is different about it I been trying to collect design details not apparent in the images I've seen. Sure I've seen photos and Taco Bill's install images but still do not understand what can possibly make the MGW shifter work better. From a mechanical design point of view the MGW shifter works exactly the same as all of the other shifters on the market with the exception of the ability to adjust shift throw distance and shift **** location.
Are you are saying that the transmission side mount is free to rotate with some torsional load on the front transmission mount shaft? Can you explain how this additional degree of freedom alters the misalignment between the transmission's shift selector and the shifter body? From what I can see as the engine and transmission are loaded they rotate and the problem seems to be that the shifter's fulcrum while in reasonably good alignment with the transmission's selector rail with the engine in a static position is out of alignment when the engine puts the drivetrain under load. How does the torsion bar correct this problem?
One other question, does the bottom of the MGW shifter's shift lever (where the transmission linkage arm mounts), rotate freely as it does with the O.E. style shifters (I.E. all other shifters)? I don't mean the linkage I mean the square linkage mount rotating around the shifter handle axis.
Cheers!
On the main remote mounting beam that attaches to the shifter base and to the transmission there's a torsion mount that is very solid and rigid. When the tranny twists this beam seems to allow the twist without affecting your ability to shift right into the next gear. There is no binding effect like I was getting with the triax. Maybe George from MGW can get on here and explain with better detail, but I'm sure that's why it works. The bottom of the shifter does have a square block that's threaded to the bottom of the shifter handle. The further you have it turned out the shorter the throw. I would say it does rotate freely to some degree, but it's spring loaded and machined to close tolerances.
10/21/07, 10:21 AM
#25
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So no, I REALLY don't think anyone here who is spending money upgrading a fairly expensive car ($30k is pretty expensive compared to $0.3k) would hesitate to call crap if it was crap.
For example: Do you remember when the BBK throttle body was reviewed by (I think...) MM&FF? They were basically claiming it produced 30 hp with just a TB swap. A whole LOT of people call crap on that. And when they came out, some folks here went out and bought them then dyno tested them and posted the dyno results SHOWING it was crap! And how many who bought one without reading all the other threads ended up posting that they didn't get much gains either?
So no, I think your whole post is full of it and the very premise of your post has been proven to be false on these forums over and over again.
10/21/07, 08:59 PM
#26
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Ok, time for something productive for this thread! I've been using the Tri-Ax shifter since (well, I don't remember! Check my sig!). Today, I installed the MGW shifter. Here is my point by point comparison of the stock shifter, the Tri-Ax and the MGW shifter. Keep in mind, this is based on extensive driving with the stock shifter, extensive driving with he Tr-Ax, but LIMITED driving experience (10 to 15 miles only so far) with the MGW.
1) Cost: (1-10)
Stock: 10 (it comes with the car!)
Tri-Ax: 5 (not the most expensive shifter, but not the cheapest either)
MGW: 4 (pretty much the most expensive shifter, but it IS only $300)
2) NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness) (1-10)
Stock: 7 (It's not bad, but I do remember some NVH at certain engine speeds)
Tri-Ax: 3 (Yeah. The thing IS noisy and it resonates VERY badly at some engine speeds. This is the single biggest reason I upgraded to the MGW!)
MGW: 10 (I am THAT happy with it! No resonance. No noise. But you still have a SOLID connection to the tranny!)
3) Shift Feel (1-10)
Stock: 5 (Not bad at all for a stock shifter. But a bit "rubbery" and the throws are too long)
Tri-Ax: 8 (A definite improvement over stock. You definitely feel more connected to the tranny)
MGW: 9 (I had a VERY hard time NOT giving this a 10. Centering force kept it from that magical 10 (next topic))
4) Stick Centering: (1-10)
Stock: 4 (It works ok. As long as you don't try to powershift the thing!)
Tri-Ax: 9 (I have no issues with the centering feel. It was just about right for me. Stronger than stock, but not so strong that you have to work at pushing the shifter over for 1-2 or 5-R. Nice)
MGW: 8 (This is my daily driver, so I REALLY should have given this a 7. It is just too stiff for daily use. But it is VERY nice for power shifting! If you miss the 2-3 shift, it is because you are asleep!)
5) Quality (1-10)
Stock: 3 (It's stock stamped steel designed to JUST do the job.)
Tri-Ax: 7 (It IS nice CNC aluminum)
MGW: 10 (What can I say? WOW!!! Every SINGLE detail has been looked at and thought through. It shows to the eye AND to the hand.)
6) Value (1-10) (Note: This is NOT how much it cost. It is how much is it WORTH to me!)
Stock: 5 (All in all, it is not a bad shifter. It's free AND it comes installed!)
Tri-Ax: 7 (If you can deal with the the increased NVH, this is a nice shifter)
MGW: 10 (It was MORE than worth $300 for the greatly decreased NVH and greatly improved shifter feel! Even after already spending $270 on the Tri-Ax...)
7) Installation Difficulty (1-10)
Stock: 10 (What can I say? It comes preinstalled!)
Tri-Ax: 6 (Unless you drop your drive shafter, you have to assemble the tranny strut arm to the shifter housing under the car. Not fun.)
MGW: 5 (You HAVE to assemble this one under the car. And it is a bigger pain to get the strut arm bolted up than the Tri-Ax was.)
8) Shifter Location (1-10)
Stock: 9 (I'm a a fairly big guy. My hand pretty much drops right down on top of the stock shifter with no issues. I probably should have given this an 8 because you can't adjust the stick height. But it works fine for me stock, so...)
Tri-Ax: 8 (I might be nit picking here, but if my memory is correct, the stock shifter height came to hand just a tiny bit better than the Tri-Ax. One plus is you have a high and low position for the stick height.)
MGW: 6 (The shifter moves back by about 1 1/2 inches. That puts the shifter just a touch too far back for a 100% natural hand fall. I didn't go lower than 6 because I know I will get used to it over time. One very big plus is the variable stick height.)
9) Overall Satisfaction (1-10)
Stock: 4 (For 90% of the people that buy these cars, this is probably good enough. If you were one of these people, you wouldn't be reading this!)
Tri-Ax: 6 (The GREATLY increased NVH subtracted BIG points from this shifter. If you are deaf, this isn't a bad shifter, but if you can hear...)
MGW: 10 (How did they do this? Quiter than stock with better shifter feel than the Tri-Ax. The best of both worlds!)
Totals
Stock: 51 (It did better than I thought it would)
Tri-Ax: 55 (NVH REALLY held this back)
MGW: 77 (Yeah. It is that much better than the Tri-Ax!)
I can safely say that the MGW EXCEEDS my expectations. By a lot. I'm an engineer by training and trade, so I can definitely see the attention to detail that went into both the design AND the manufacture of this shifter. I can still remember when I first got the Tri-Ax and how much of an improvement it's build quality was over stock. The MGW is a bigger leap over the Tri-Ax than the Tri-Ax was over stock.
I'm really not sure how MGW did it, but they created a shifter that is quieter than stock, but has a better overall shifter feel than the Tri-Ax. Very nice. I think I will give George a call and have him send me a set of lighter centering springs and then I will be 100% happy with this shifter.
One bit that I didn't include in my scoring is the MGW stick handles. You can get it with either the factory metric (12mm I think) or the "standard" 3/8" threads. Or you can spend $20 and get both handles. This means you can run just about any handle that you want with no issues. And it is simple to change the handle out from the interior by only loosening two screws. Not bad at all.
Very nice job MGW!
1) Cost: (1-10)
Stock: 10 (it comes with the car!)
Tri-Ax: 5 (not the most expensive shifter, but not the cheapest either)
MGW: 4 (pretty much the most expensive shifter, but it IS only $300)
2) NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness) (1-10)
Stock: 7 (It's not bad, but I do remember some NVH at certain engine speeds)
Tri-Ax: 3 (Yeah. The thing IS noisy and it resonates VERY badly at some engine speeds. This is the single biggest reason I upgraded to the MGW!)
MGW: 10 (I am THAT happy with it! No resonance. No noise. But you still have a SOLID connection to the tranny!)
3) Shift Feel (1-10)
Stock: 5 (Not bad at all for a stock shifter. But a bit "rubbery" and the throws are too long)
Tri-Ax: 8 (A definite improvement over stock. You definitely feel more connected to the tranny)
MGW: 9 (I had a VERY hard time NOT giving this a 10. Centering force kept it from that magical 10 (next topic))
4) Stick Centering: (1-10)
Stock: 4 (It works ok. As long as you don't try to powershift the thing!)
Tri-Ax: 9 (I have no issues with the centering feel. It was just about right for me. Stronger than stock, but not so strong that you have to work at pushing the shifter over for 1-2 or 5-R. Nice)
MGW: 8 (This is my daily driver, so I REALLY should have given this a 7. It is just too stiff for daily use. But it is VERY nice for power shifting! If you miss the 2-3 shift, it is because you are asleep!)
5) Quality (1-10)
Stock: 3 (It's stock stamped steel designed to JUST do the job.)
Tri-Ax: 7 (It IS nice CNC aluminum)
MGW: 10 (What can I say? WOW!!! Every SINGLE detail has been looked at and thought through. It shows to the eye AND to the hand.)
6) Value (1-10) (Note: This is NOT how much it cost. It is how much is it WORTH to me!)
Stock: 5 (All in all, it is not a bad shifter. It's free AND it comes installed!)
Tri-Ax: 7 (If you can deal with the the increased NVH, this is a nice shifter)
MGW: 10 (It was MORE than worth $300 for the greatly decreased NVH and greatly improved shifter feel! Even after already spending $270 on the Tri-Ax...)
7) Installation Difficulty (1-10)
Stock: 10 (What can I say? It comes preinstalled!)
Tri-Ax: 6 (Unless you drop your drive shafter, you have to assemble the tranny strut arm to the shifter housing under the car. Not fun.)
MGW: 5 (You HAVE to assemble this one under the car. And it is a bigger pain to get the strut arm bolted up than the Tri-Ax was.)
8) Shifter Location (1-10)
Stock: 9 (I'm a a fairly big guy. My hand pretty much drops right down on top of the stock shifter with no issues. I probably should have given this an 8 because you can't adjust the stick height. But it works fine for me stock, so...)
Tri-Ax: 8 (I might be nit picking here, but if my memory is correct, the stock shifter height came to hand just a tiny bit better than the Tri-Ax. One plus is you have a high and low position for the stick height.)
MGW: 6 (The shifter moves back by about 1 1/2 inches. That puts the shifter just a touch too far back for a 100% natural hand fall. I didn't go lower than 6 because I know I will get used to it over time. One very big plus is the variable stick height.)
9) Overall Satisfaction (1-10)
Stock: 4 (For 90% of the people that buy these cars, this is probably good enough. If you were one of these people, you wouldn't be reading this!)
Tri-Ax: 6 (The GREATLY increased NVH subtracted BIG points from this shifter. If you are deaf, this isn't a bad shifter, but if you can hear...)
MGW: 10 (How did they do this? Quiter than stock with better shifter feel than the Tri-Ax. The best of both worlds!)
Totals
Stock: 51 (It did better than I thought it would)
Tri-Ax: 55 (NVH REALLY held this back)
MGW: 77 (Yeah. It is that much better than the Tri-Ax!)
I can safely say that the MGW EXCEEDS my expectations. By a lot. I'm an engineer by training and trade, so I can definitely see the attention to detail that went into both the design AND the manufacture of this shifter. I can still remember when I first got the Tri-Ax and how much of an improvement it's build quality was over stock. The MGW is a bigger leap over the Tri-Ax than the Tri-Ax was over stock.
I'm really not sure how MGW did it, but they created a shifter that is quieter than stock, but has a better overall shifter feel than the Tri-Ax. Very nice. I think I will give George a call and have him send me a set of lighter centering springs and then I will be 100% happy with this shifter.
One bit that I didn't include in my scoring is the MGW stick handles. You can get it with either the factory metric (12mm I think) or the "standard" 3/8" threads. Or you can spend $20 and get both handles. This means you can run just about any handle that you want with no issues. And it is simple to change the handle out from the interior by only loosening two screws. Not bad at all.
Very nice job MGW!
10/21/07, 10:34 PM
#27
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Clint.... give the MGW a few days of daily driving and I'm sure you're going to change a couple of your ratings. It will loosen up some with a little use. If not, you can get the softer spring.
Isn't it great that you can contact George at MGW and request a lighter spring to fit your preference and that it can be installed from inside the car without taking the shifter out. If you could even get such a thing from Hurst or Steeda, you would have to remove the shifter, send it back to them and pay no telling how much for the modification.. The MGW is definately a user friendly shifter.
I too replaced a very good Steeda with the MGW and I'd do it again in a heart beat.
Bobby M.
Isn't it great that you can contact George at MGW and request a lighter spring to fit your preference and that it can be installed from inside the car without taking the shifter out. If you could even get such a thing from Hurst or Steeda, you would have to remove the shifter, send it back to them and pay no telling how much for the modification.. The MGW is definately a user friendly shifter.
I too replaced a very good Steeda with the MGW and I'd do it again in a heart beat.
Bobby M.
10/21/07, 11:02 PM
#28
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Bobby,
Yeah, that is one of the reasons I prefaced that speil with "I've only driven it 10 to 15 miles". I figure it will loosen up with some use (the Tri-Ax did). But I sure don't see how the center springs can loosen up THAT much!
Yeah, that is one of the reasons I prefaced that speil with "I've only driven it 10 to 15 miles". I figure it will loosen up with some use (the Tri-Ax did). But I sure don't see how the center springs can loosen up THAT much!
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