I might mention that if one goes UP Palomar Mountain, one must also come down, and brakes come into play in a major way on the decent (even the sportbike guys often go DOWN on the East Grade road for this reason). Understeer does make a car "predictable" relative to snap oversteer, but as I noted:

"Any mod you make to the handling to optimize for a track, will have a cost on the road, and it won't be a good one."

...maybe it's a language problem?

"Sixty, it's not really an opinion, it's a fact."

Actually, it's neither....it's uninformed dogma based on a "more is better" mentality that ignores reality and common sense...but you're certainly entitled to it.

 

If you didn't notice fade, you weren't on the brakes hard enough. I have noticed brake fade on the street, especially up at higher speeds. The stock pads can't handle performance driving.

If you think that the Stang's suspension is fine, that's great and you are entitled to your opinion. You opinion would change immediately if you test drove any of the cars I mentioned.

What I bolded isn't true. You guys are thinking that the FRPP is some factory race suspension. It's simply a "sport package". BMW offers an optional sport package on almost all of their models. "More is better" if you do your research and select the right parts.

 

Perhaps your roads are groomed as well as Buttonwillow, in which case I'm happy for you. (also, I'd like a pair of your rose-colored driving glasses...). On real world twisties, road debris will limit you FAR before your braking capacity will unless you're doing a 200 miler and your concept of performance driving is limited to stomping on the brakes before entry. In the real world of serious twisties, if you lose your grip under hard braking, you can expect to visit the oncoming lane....this makes you extremely unpopular with opposing traffic. Perhaps this is not of concern?

Track tune is not street tune, it isn't merely a matter of ride quality, it's a matter of road conditions and debris. Sure, adjustable shocks give one the flexibility to tune for conditions, but that's more than a little effort for those actually driving regularly on public roads. We WERE talking of pricing limits consistant with the car and handling for twisty public roads, not exclusive track use. For that application, tires are by far the best investment you can make.

Of course, no one disputes one's right to having an opinion. The hubis of asserting the same as "fact" more typically addresses an often justifiable insecurity in person making such an assertion.

 

I don't know how you would even start to compare the Corvette to the Mustang as they are 2 COMPLETELY different cars.

I would say the Mustang does pretty good for what it is stock, and what it was ment to do. Now with that said it does need help if you were going to open track the car or want to get serious about doing road course work with it.

First on the brakes, of course its going to have brake fade, thats the thing with factory cars, its all about compromise between HD use, low dusting, and low noise. A true track pad isn't going to be clean, and it isn't going to be quiet. So get a set of PFC 01 pads, Hawk blues, or similar and swap them out at the track. Probably going to want to upgrade to a good fluid as well so it doesn't boil over and you end up with a soft pedal.

Understeering...most cars do this from the factory, also going to happen with most RWD cars. Depends on what is really going on. Is it a push on corner entry, mid corner, or on corner exit? A lot of this can be changed by just doing a simple alignment of the car and changing yourself to the car's nature of how it needs to be driven. After this you need to find out if its a low speed or high speed push, can it be solved with springs, or does it need downforce?

Adjustible shocks are not always the answer......have a shock dyno in your garage? Again..the suspension has to be a compromise for a stock car because not everyone is going to want a soft ride, and not everyone is going to want something that is going to shake your teeth out. I would say for 90% of the people out there, getting a good MATCHED setup that has the springs, shocks and bars setup for performance driving that is going to make most people very happy with the car, once they get better at driving and more confortable with the car then they can start making changes based off of their own driving abilities and style.

Someone had mentioned about the car being higher in the back, if you look at most race cars, they are also going to have rake to them...it then starts to turn the body itself into a wing, and if you have a spolier or wing it will get it higher in the air so that it is open to more direct air flow coming over the car.....but then again, you would need a wind tunnel to find out exactly what is going on.

Lastly....wheels and tires are going to be the biggest factor, its the only thing that connects the car to the ground. Lower profile tires are going to give you a more direct feed back but harsher ride, get something wide so that it sticks....got a car thats pushing? Get a wider front tire to help get the front to stick. Spend some time at the track playing with tire pressures.


Wanna go faster..........get more seat time.

 

I'm not going to argue with you. I live in Chicago and the roads are ladden with potholes. I can poke a ton of holes in your arguement. Basic driving schools will teach you to do all your braking in a straight line. Slow in fast out.

I personally don't corner hard on the street because simply it's no fun. I can outdrive the tires, suspension, and brakes. Plus there is a little thing called safety and law enforcement. I would question your intelligence for pushing your car hard when you KNOW that the roads have debris on them.

Tires are always the best investment(especially in our case), but this car's suspension needs investment as well. Tires won't cancel out the body roll and understeer. I don't think you understand the difference btwn the FRPP suspension and a full out race suspension.

Also, I wouldn't take the opinion of someone who refers to corners as "the real world of serious twisties" too seriously.

You and Sixty brought this thread WAY off topic. Some people like to make their cars handle well, leave it at that.

 

Good Post. A well matched setup such as the FRPP will work great for most. The track junkies will want more dedicated parts from companies like MM. Have you had any experience with PF 03 pads? I have used the 01's and they are awesome.

 

Yep....03s are a very good pad, nice ramp up and quick release so they don't drag going through the corner. Very rotor friendly as well.

From what I have seen you are not going to get a 03 pad in a stock caliper

 

I emailed PF a while back regarding development of pads for the stock 05 GT braking system. They stated they are working on it and should have something out soon. I haven't seen anything or heard about them having pads to fit our application yet. Hawk and Carbotech are the only companies that I know of that make pads so far.

 

Just by looking at the calipers and how they are setup, I would say most Mustang owners are going to end up in about the same boat as the '98-02 Camaro and C5 Corvette owners. With hard track use you are probably going to end up with caliper spread, especially when going to a pad that can generate that kind of heat. I would look into doing some sort of brake cooling if you are going to be using 01 or 03 pads on a regular basis and driving them to their limit.

All of my experiance with the 03 pads as been with a six pison StopTech caliper. Had 01's on stock calipers and StopTechs....the 01 is a very good pad for most people starting out doing track use because it does not require a lot of heat, and its like the 03, very easy on the rotors, but it will take a lot of abuse without going away.

 

I think your reading of my post bespeakes of a comprehension deficiency...I am very much concerned about losing lateral grip on road debris...if I wasn't, I've have collected several bikes on the front of my car. Perhaps a re-reading is in order? Pay particular attention to:

"In the real world of serious twisties, if you lose your grip under hard braking, you can expect to visit the oncoming lane....this makes you extremely unpopular with opposing traffic."

You read this mean I am unconcerned with safety and my intelligence is deficient? Son, you need to read up on what behavioral sciences call "projection"

Oh, I'm pretty familiar with a concept with FRPP and full race, but as you dont corner hard on the street (as you acknowledge) perhaps you aren't?

Oh, since a couple of you seem to know the secret of reducing body roll in a live axle car without compromising compliance over real world twisties, perhaps you'd do better to design systems than buy them. I'm sure we'd all benefit from your insight and experience, especially that not gleaned from the automotive section of your local magazine rack. Once again, we were speaking of a suspension that works in the price range of this car, works on public roads as well, an offers the best gains for the kind of spirited driving that I can only hope you limit yourselves to on other than a track. If not, then some of the theorizing about how this might be done amounts to little more than mental mastrubation with little application. There is always room for improvement....but at what cost (financial and practical)?

 

Been there, done that (well, quite a few months ago, anyway... right after I got the car).

Do these pics look familiar?

 

I'm hoping I'm not being included in that bunch

Well thats the nice thing about the factory setup...its designed to try and cover everyone pretty nicely. Personally I think the Ford Racing Parts kit would probably do pretty darn nicely fore 90% of the people out there. If I end up doing anything with mine other than a daily driver, I had thought seriously about putting it on and taking it out when we test the race cars to see just how much it did change the car.

Now I do not see the big difference in reducing body roll on a stick axle car...but it does bring about a different mind set when you are dealing with a live axle car and watching how the axle is moving under the car and making sure that it is not going into any kind of bind, along with that when you lower it you need to make sure you have travel for it, because if it hits a bump stop hard you are going to run into a snap oversteer condition. That was one of the problems with the late model F bodies, they would start to smack the bump stops when they were lowered a lot and you would have a snap oversteer, the other thing was getting the suspesion arms to move without binding. As the axle goes thru its arc of movement, what ever resistance you are going to get in the bushings is going to add to your 'true' wheel rate.

Lot of things to think about if you are wanting to come up with your own design.

 

Maybe you should be more coherent in your posts:

"I ran Palomar with a half tank of gas, TCS off, and never experienced a weakness in handling that wasn't attributable to dirt on the road or "tar snakes" in the hairpins. I was on stock tires with a half-tank of fuel and would have wished for more grip"

You never stated that you were "concerned" with losing grip in your posts. I am not a mind reader, therefore I can't look into your logic. I can read perfectly well.

I have modified many suspensions in my day and have driven my car hard on the street when I was stupid. I took my car to the track and saw how hard you could safely push your vehicle to the limits. I was hooked ever since. Driving on the street isn't the same. I have pushed my Stang hard a few times, but all it did was understeer at the limits and the tires were screaming for mecy. I don't post up maps of public roads that I race down.

Steeda, FRPP, Eibach, and H&R all have well designed kits that improve handling while keeping a compliant ride. None of those kits are full blown track kits. This is concept that you have a hard time "projecting"

Finally,using your logic, why modify cars at all? The engine works fine for this price range Maybe modifying cars isn't for you?

 

If I want to spend the cash for a lower stance, less body roll, a less than compromised daily driving ride and better turn in on corners, I think that's my business. I'm glad you think the stock suspension is just fine. Kudos.

 

Great posts, max2000. Your line sums up how silly some of the other arguments are. Why would I reflash, the stock power is fine (just ask my wife)? Why would I want an upgraded exhaust since the stock exhaust sounds great?

Why the animosity Ascout? If you are happy with the stock suspension, great. Some of us have pushed it up to and beyond its limits and want an upgrade. Are we talking about a dedicated track car and R-compounds? Nope. We just want a car that handles better than stock. Does the stock suspension stink? Nope. We just want it to be better. Will the ride be a little worse than stock? That is all relative. I like a stiffer rider suspension, so it will be improved compared to stock. Will my wife like the stiffer suspension? Probably not, since she thinks the stock suspension is too stiff.

 

Guys if you want a better handling Mustang then your ride will suffer.

The FRPP pack is a good compromise for those of us that want marginally better handling and a lowered ride.

The crap of that package is that it really lowers the car too much to make maximum gripping power.

You should not lower a MacPherson Strut more than one inch unless you are relocating the strut higher on the K-member. The optimum postition for the strut is parallel to the ground.

If you want to go all out call up Maximum Motorsports or Ground Control tell them what you want out of the car and have them recommend some Eibach Springs with a higher rate and get the Tokico shocks that are out right now or get the Koni shocks (which IMO are going to be better but more costly) when they come out (which should be pretty soon).

The only AntiRoll bar mods needed should be in the rear end to help even out the Understeering bias.

Oh yeah if you go all out with this you might want to get some R-comps because you'll need the grip over the 400 treadwear stock tires to make any sense of the stock suspension.

Oh yeah, get some new bushings for the entire car, an adjustable upper third link, better LCAs, triangular strut tower brace up front, and a strut tower brace in the rear.

I think that about covers all that I know you could do to improve your car into a trackable vehicle on par with Beamers (atleast on a smooth surface).

Lastly this thread links to a wealth of information about Mustang Suspension tuning.

Suspension Stuff

 

Only thing, and I do not know why people want to do this, but it says to run toe IN on the front.

If you want to track the car....you run toe OUT on the front, and toe IN on the rear.


Other than that.....pretty good article.

 

I chose Steeda for all my suspension needs.

Here are pics of my car before and after suspension mods.




The car has been lowered approximately 1". The ride quality is close to stock with the exception of some rear end bounce over repeating expansion joints. A set of Tokico 16 way adjustable D-Spec shocks will be installed before the car comes out of hibernation.

My first suspension mods were the Steeda Front and Rear Sway bars along with the Competition front and rear end links. These drastically reduced the understeer without compromising the ride quality.

I then reinforced the chassis using the Steeda Billet Strut Tower Brace,
Steeda G-Trac Brace, and Steeda Rear Shock Tower Brace.

I then installed the Steeda Sport Springs along with the Steeda Adjustable Panhard Bar and Panhard Bar Brace.

I then installed the Steeda Billet Lower Control Arms and Steeda Adjustable 3rd Link for better drag launches.

For the front I'm in the process of installing the Steeda Lower Control Arm Relocation Kit, Bumpsteer Kit, Billet Camber Kit, and Front Control Arm Bushing Kit.

The suspension in its' current unfinished state is far superior to the stock suspension. I can't wait to see how it handles once the Steeda 18" X 9.5" wheels and 275/35 18 tires are installed along with the Tokico D-Spec Shocks.

Here is a complete list of all my suspension mods:

555-8215 Steeda Sport Springs
555-1050 Steeda Front Sway Bar
555-8113 Billet Swaybar Mount
555-1051 Steeda Swaybar Competition Endlinks
555-1052 Steeda Rear Sway Bar C/W HD Swaybar Chassis Link Kit and optional Billet Swaybar Caps
555-5725 Steeda Billet Strut Tower Brace
555-5530 Steeda G-Trac Brace
555-5750 Steeda Rear Shock Tower Brace
555-2555 Steeda HD Race Panhard Bar Brace
555-2551 Steeda Street Panhard Bar
555-4105 Steeda Adjustable Upper 3-Link Kit
555-4405 Steeda Billet Lower Control Arms
555-8096 Steeda Billet Camber Adjusters
555-4006 Steeda Front Control Arm Bushing Kit
555-8106 Steeda Bumpsteer Kit
555-8116 Steeda Control Arm Relocation Kit

 

OK, back to the original question,
The FRPP springs and anti-roll bars work well, but the dampers will give you a VERY HARSH RIDE! I'm talking Saleens with Formula GP's harsh! They need to work on their high speed dampening. If you are on a budget, get the springs, bars, and the tower brace seperately, and use with the original dampers.

On another note, my car is at Ingalls engineering as a development mule for a suspension system that will correct some factory flaws. They can be found at www.ingallseng.com. Hope this helps.

Pat

 

So I take it you have had a ride in a Mustang with the FRPP dampers? If not what are you basing this off of?

BTW I am not trying to sound harsh just wanting the info.