Follow up to my thread about grinding issues...
4/23/08, 12:23 PM
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Follow up to my thread about grinding issues...
Well guys this is the first thread I started about the 3rd gear issue: http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=466905
I know that some of you have problems grinding in third under cold conditions, and some have it constistantly no matter if it's hot or cold.
I thought I would follow up with my situation...
My problem was that the tranny would grind going into third for aboue 3 minutes while in a complete cold start. I had strated a thread to figure out what other people were seeing, and it didn't look good. My last resort was to take it to the "stealership" to have them "rebuild" my tranny. Just FYI, there currently is still no TSB on this problem, so I was even more hesitant to bringing my car in to Ford.
I thought for a good day or so...and I concluded, "if my problem isn't consistant, there is no way that is can be a problem within the transmission. It has to be something relevant to the transmission fluid since it does not grind after about 3 minutes of a cold start."
Well I decided to go to a small Mustang parts shop here in northern VA and bought 4 quarts of Royal Purple MAX ATF tranny fluid (for an amazing price of $6.25 a quart). I had my good friend who works at a local shop top the transmission off with the required 3.25 quarts.
The next morning I was pretty nervous, not knowing if my problem would be solved. I started the car, went out and drove it, engaged the clutch, shifting into third with NO PROBLEMS AT ALL. It seems like changing out to a slippier fluid solved my problem.
NOW I KNOW, this will not solve everyone's problems, because some of you have grinding issues that are worse than mine. I thought I would just report back, and let it be known, that if you have a similar issue to mine, there is a cheap solution.
--Brandon
I know that some of you have problems grinding in third under cold conditions, and some have it constistantly no matter if it's hot or cold.
I thought I would follow up with my situation...
My problem was that the tranny would grind going into third for aboue 3 minutes while in a complete cold start. I had strated a thread to figure out what other people were seeing, and it didn't look good. My last resort was to take it to the "stealership" to have them "rebuild" my tranny. Just FYI, there currently is still no TSB on this problem, so I was even more hesitant to bringing my car in to Ford.
I thought for a good day or so...and I concluded, "if my problem isn't consistant, there is no way that is can be a problem within the transmission. It has to be something relevant to the transmission fluid since it does not grind after about 3 minutes of a cold start."
Well I decided to go to a small Mustang parts shop here in northern VA and bought 4 quarts of Royal Purple MAX ATF tranny fluid (for an amazing price of $6.25 a quart). I had my good friend who works at a local shop top the transmission off with the required 3.25 quarts.
The next morning I was pretty nervous, not knowing if my problem would be solved. I started the car, went out and drove it, engaged the clutch, shifting into third with NO PROBLEMS AT ALL. It seems like changing out to a slippier fluid solved my problem.
NOW I KNOW, this will not solve everyone's problems, because some of you have grinding issues that are worse than mine. I thought I would just report back, and let it be known, that if you have a similar issue to mine, there is a cheap solution.
--Brandon
4/23/08, 02:15 PM
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Well guys this is the first thread I started about the 3rd gear issue: http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=466905
I know that some of you have problems grinding in third under cold conditions, and some have it constistantly no matter if it's hot or cold.
I thought I would follow up with my situation...
My problem was that the tranny would grind going into third for aboue 3 minutes while in a complete cold start. I had strated a thread to figure out what other people were seeing, and it didn't look good. My last resort was to take it to the "stealership" to have them "rebuild" my tranny. Just FYI, there currently is still no TSB on this problem, so I was even more hesitant to bringing my car in to Ford.
I thought for a good day or so...and I concluded, "if my problem isn't consistant, there is no way that is can be a problem within the transmission. It has to be something relevant to the transmission fluid since it does not grind after about 3 minutes of a cold start."
Well I decided to go to a small Mustang parts shop here in northern VA and bought 4 quarts of Royal Purple MAX ATF tranny fluid (for an amazing price of $6.25 a quart). I had my good friend who works at a local shop top the transmission off with the required 3.25 quarts.
The next morning I was pretty nervous, not knowing if my problem would be solved. I started the car, went out and drove it, engaged the clutch, shifting into third with NO PROBLEMS AT ALL. It seems like changing out to a slippier fluid solved my problem.
NOW I KNOW, this will not solve everyone's problems, because some of you have grinding issues that are worse than mine. I thought I would just report back, and let it be known, that if you have a similar issue to mine, there is a cheap solution.
--Brandon
I know that some of you have problems grinding in third under cold conditions, and some have it constistantly no matter if it's hot or cold.
I thought I would follow up with my situation...
My problem was that the tranny would grind going into third for aboue 3 minutes while in a complete cold start. I had strated a thread to figure out what other people were seeing, and it didn't look good. My last resort was to take it to the "stealership" to have them "rebuild" my tranny. Just FYI, there currently is still no TSB on this problem, so I was even more hesitant to bringing my car in to Ford.
I thought for a good day or so...and I concluded, "if my problem isn't consistant, there is no way that is can be a problem within the transmission. It has to be something relevant to the transmission fluid since it does not grind after about 3 minutes of a cold start."
Well I decided to go to a small Mustang parts shop here in northern VA and bought 4 quarts of Royal Purple MAX ATF tranny fluid (for an amazing price of $6.25 a quart). I had my good friend who works at a local shop top the transmission off with the required 3.25 quarts.
The next morning I was pretty nervous, not knowing if my problem would be solved. I started the car, went out and drove it, engaged the clutch, shifting into third with NO PROBLEMS AT ALL. It seems like changing out to a slippier fluid solved my problem.
NOW I KNOW, this will not solve everyone's problems, because some of you have grinding issues that are worse than mine. I thought I would just report back, and let it be known, that if you have a similar issue to mine, there is a cheap solution.
--Brandon
thanks for this post. You've given me some hope! I've been debating on whether or not to take my car back to the dealer after they already "rebuilt" it. I have the exact condition you are describing. Third gear grinds until the car reaches "normal operating temperature", which takes about five minutes, and then it's fine.
4/23/08, 03:59 PM
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bro,
thanks for this post. You've given me some hope! I've been debating on whether or not to take my car back to the dealer after they already "rebuilt" it. I have the exact condition you are describing. Third gear grinds until the car reaches "normal operating temperature", which takes about five minutes, and then it's fine.
thanks for this post. You've given me some hope! I've been debating on whether or not to take my car back to the dealer after they already "rebuilt" it. I have the exact condition you are describing. Third gear grinds until the car reaches "normal operating temperature", which takes about five minutes, and then it's fine.
Correct. Not only did Royal Purple MAX ATF fix the problem, but the tranny feels a lot smoother through shifts.
Please PM me or reply here to let me know it goes.
4/23/08, 05:13 PM
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4/23/08, 05:20 PM
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Good question. I have five speed, and you can use ATF with atuos or manual trans.
Here you go: http://www.americanmuscle.com/royal-...ion-fluid.html
"Max ATF® is a synthetic, high performance, long life, multipurpose, transmission fluid. Max ATF® is recommended for all transmissions requiring Ford Mercon® or GM Dexron® III transmission fluids. This includes the automatic as well as the manual transmissions in late model Mustangs.
Max ATF® is more oxidation stable than other transmission fluids and greatly resists breakdown from heat and loss of proper lubricity "
4/23/08, 05:39 PM
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Good question. I have five speed, and you can use ATF with atuos or manual trans.
Here you go: http://www.americanmuscle.com/royal-...ion-fluid.html
"Max ATF® is a synthetic, high performance, long life, multipurpose, transmission fluid. Max ATF® is recommended for all transmissions requiring Ford Mercon® or GM Dexron® III transmission fluids. This includes the automatic as well as the manual transmissions in late model Mustangs.
Max ATF® is more oxidation stable than other transmission fluids and greatly resists breakdown from heat and loss of proper lubricity "
Here you go: http://www.americanmuscle.com/royal-...ion-fluid.html
"Max ATF® is a synthetic, high performance, long life, multipurpose, transmission fluid. Max ATF® is recommended for all transmissions requiring Ford Mercon® or GM Dexron® III transmission fluids. This includes the automatic as well as the manual transmissions in late model Mustangs.
Max ATF® is more oxidation stable than other transmission fluids and greatly resists breakdown from heat and loss of proper lubricity "
I'll keep you posted.
4/23/08, 07:34 PM
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Changing out the stock ATF for a synthetic seemed to make my 3650 work smoother as well. I am running Redline High-Temp ATF, the thickest synthetic Mercon ATF I could find.
4/23/08, 08:28 PM
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Interesting result. It would be interesting to see what the ratings are on the label. If that AFT is rated Mercon V, then it actually has additives to make it less slick. Really slick oil (mineral or synthetic) is detrimental to proper synchro (blocker ring) operation because it can't catch the idler gear on the output shaft.
Last edited by RadBOSS; 4/23/08 at 08:30 PM.
4/23/08, 08:39 PM
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Thanks for posting your results Brandon, I've been contemplating this also, and now I'm definitely going to try this. Even if it doesn't fix it completely, when did you ever suffer for putting higher quality fluids in your car?
I'll post up after I've done it. Thanks again!
I'll post up after I've done it. Thanks again!
4/23/08, 09:12 PM
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Thanks for posting your results Brandon, I've been contemplating this also, and now I'm definitely going to try this. Even if it doesn't fix it completely, when did you ever suffer for putting higher quality fluids in your car?
I'll post up after I've done it. Thanks again!
I'll post up after I've done it. Thanks again!
Great! Please let us know!
4/24/08, 05:15 AM
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Mercon-V is more friction modified (slicker) than Mercon. It's interesting that Ford is specifying Mercon-V for 2008-up 3650/6060 manual gearboxes.
Type F has minimal friction modifiers, which is why they tell you NOT to use it in transmissions that require Mercon/Mercon-V/Mercon SP, Dexron II/III/VI, etc...
I have not tried Mercon-V in my 3650, but the Redline High-Temp is a Mercon ATF that is much thicker. If I shift at the right RPM, I can feel 2 "steps" in each shift. For example, going from N to any gear results in a "CLINK" "CLINK" feel through the shifter. My transmission shifts the same at 30F or 80F ambient.
Type F has minimal friction modifiers, which is why they tell you NOT to use it in transmissions that require Mercon/Mercon-V/Mercon SP, Dexron II/III/VI, etc...
I have not tried Mercon-V in my 3650, but the Redline High-Temp is a Mercon ATF that is much thicker. If I shift at the right RPM, I can feel 2 "steps" in each shift. For example, going from N to any gear results in a "CLINK" "CLINK" feel through the shifter. My transmission shifts the same at 30F or 80F ambient.
4/24/08, 06:06 PM
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Mercon-V is more friction modified (slicker) than Mercon. It's interesting that Ford is specifying Mercon-V for 2008-up 3650/6060 manual gearboxes.
Type F has minimal friction modifiers, which is why they tell you NOT to use it in transmissions that require Mercon/Mercon-V/Mercon SP, Dexron II/III/VI, etc...
I have not tried Mercon-V in my 3650, but the Redline High-Temp is a Mercon ATF that is much thicker. If I shift at the right RPM, I can feel 2 "steps" in each shift. For example, going from N to any gear results in a "CLINK" "CLINK" feel through the shifter. My transmission shifts the same at 30F or 80F ambient.
Type F has minimal friction modifiers, which is why they tell you NOT to use it in transmissions that require Mercon/Mercon-V/Mercon SP, Dexron II/III/VI, etc...
I have not tried Mercon-V in my 3650, but the Redline High-Temp is a Mercon ATF that is much thicker. If I shift at the right RPM, I can feel 2 "steps" in each shift. For example, going from N to any gear results in a "CLINK" "CLINK" feel through the shifter. My transmission shifts the same at 30F or 80F ambient.
Last edited by RadBOSS; 4/24/08 at 06:09 PM.
4/24/08, 06:17 PM
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Just an update, I've had 4 cold starts since I switched tranny fluids, still NO THIRD GEAR GRINDS or anything else odd in the trans.
4/24/08, 06:35 PM
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Will be giving the Mercon V a try in my 05 to see if that resolves its notchyness and drag symptoms that I have tolerated..
Note: Ford no longer licenses Mercon, hence the reason Mercon V showing up in the 08 manuals. Its a dead product line, though some may still be around.
4/24/08, 06:49 PM
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On a scale of Ford ATF's:
Type F is the least friction modified ATF, followed by Mercon, then Mercon-V. I am not sure where Mercon SP stands. Chrysler's ATF+4 is HIGHLY friction modified (significantly more so than Mercon and Mercon-V).
Amsoil ATF meets Mercon, Mercon-V, ATF+3, and ATF+4. A lot of Chrysler owners have experienced severe trans slippage using Amsoil ATF in their transaxle that requires ATF+3 due to excessive friction modifiers for an application that doesn't need it.
Again, Mercon-V is more friction modified than Mercon. Adding more FM reduces friction between surfaces.
Last edited by metroplex; 4/24/08 at 06:50 PM.
4/24/08, 07:02 PM
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No. Mercon-V is more friction modified than Mercon. Mercon is being slowly phased out for OEM applications and Mercon-V is at the very least a partial synthetic. Friction modifiers reduce friction between moving surfaces (makes it more slippery so to speak) similar to what you use in the rear-end to prevent the clutch packs from chattering.
On a scale of Ford ATF's:
Type F is the least friction modified ATF, followed by Mercon, then Mercon-V. I am not sure where Mercon SP stands. Chrysler's ATF+4 is HIGHLY friction modified (significantly more so than Mercon and Mercon-V).
Amsoil ATF meets Mercon, Mercon-V, ATF+3, and ATF+4. A lot of Chrysler owners have experienced severe trans slippage using Amsoil ATF in their transaxle that requires ATF+3 due to excessive friction modifiers for an application that doesn't need it.
Again, Mercon-V is more friction modified than Mercon. Adding more FM reduces friction between surfaces.
On a scale of Ford ATF's:
Type F is the least friction modified ATF, followed by Mercon, then Mercon-V. I am not sure where Mercon SP stands. Chrysler's ATF+4 is HIGHLY friction modified (significantly more so than Mercon and Mercon-V).
Amsoil ATF meets Mercon, Mercon-V, ATF+3, and ATF+4. A lot of Chrysler owners have experienced severe trans slippage using Amsoil ATF in their transaxle that requires ATF+3 due to excessive friction modifiers for an application that doesn't need it.
Again, Mercon-V is more friction modified than Mercon. Adding more FM reduces friction between surfaces.
Thanks for further explaining/informing us!
4/24/08, 08:58 PM
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Metroplex
You still have it backwards.
For one, the term friction modifiers is a term very loosely used for all oils and can be misleading. Friction modifiers used in gear oils are not the same as used in engine oil and not the same as used in transmission oils (conventional gear oil or synthetics).
The limited slip or posi requires a friction modifier that increases the friction between the the disks in the clutch pack. This also reduces chatter when there is insufficient friction. This modifier is not the same stuff in your engine oil or transmission oils.
Automatic transmissions also have oil immersed clutch packs that require a modifier to increase their grip, but its not the same stuff used in a posi.
Engine oils get a friction modifier generally to improve its lubricity characteristics (like ZDDP). So its slicker.
Manual transmission synchros (the blocker ring to be precise) require a oil with special friction increasing characteristics. When you are shifting into a gear, the blocker ring encased in the slider is pressing against a matching cone surface on the idler gear (or input shaft for 4th) you are shifting into. The blocker ring has to clutch that gear cone and match its RPM to the output shaft (same RPM as the slider), and only then will the slider be able to continue on to engage the splines on the gear. If the blocker ring does not clutch the gear and match the RPM, you get a grind or a drag. Slick is not good for proper syncro performance!!!!!
So I submit again, Mercon V is less slick than Mercon. Mercon V also has friction increasing characteristics similar HFM transmission oils (Chrylser).
You still have it backwards.
For one, the term friction modifiers is a term very loosely used for all oils and can be misleading. Friction modifiers used in gear oils are not the same as used in engine oil and not the same as used in transmission oils (conventional gear oil or synthetics).
The limited slip or posi requires a friction modifier that increases the friction between the the disks in the clutch pack. This also reduces chatter when there is insufficient friction. This modifier is not the same stuff in your engine oil or transmission oils.
Automatic transmissions also have oil immersed clutch packs that require a modifier to increase their grip, but its not the same stuff used in a posi.
Engine oils get a friction modifier generally to improve its lubricity characteristics (like ZDDP). So its slicker.
Manual transmission synchros (the blocker ring to be precise) require a oil with special friction increasing characteristics. When you are shifting into a gear, the blocker ring encased in the slider is pressing against a matching cone surface on the idler gear (or input shaft for 4th) you are shifting into. The blocker ring has to clutch that gear cone and match its RPM to the output shaft (same RPM as the slider), and only then will the slider be able to continue on to engage the splines on the gear. If the blocker ring does not clutch the gear and match the RPM, you get a grind or a drag. Slick is not good for proper syncro performance!!!!!
So I submit again, Mercon V is less slick than Mercon. Mercon V also has friction increasing characteristics similar HFM transmission oils (Chrylser).
4/24/08, 09:04 PM
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Metroplex
You still have it backwards.
For one, the term friction modifiers is a term very loosely used for all oils and can be misleading. Friction modifiers used in gear oils are not the same as used in engine oil and not the same as used in transmission oils (conventional gear oil or synthetics).
The limited slip or posi requires a friction modifier that increases the friction between the the disks in the clutch pack. This also reduces chatter when there is insufficient friction. This modifier is not the same stuff in your engine oil or transmission oils.
Automatic transmissions also have oil immersed clutch packs that require a modifier to increase their grip, but its not the same stuff used in a posi.
Engine oils get a friction modifier generally to improve its lubricity characteristics (like ZDDP). So its slicker.
Manual transmission synchros (the blocker ring to be precise) require a oil with special friction increasing characteristics. When you are shifting into a gear, the blocker ring encased in the slider is pressing against a matching cone surface on the idler gear (or input shaft for 4th) you are shifting into. The blocker ring has to clutch that gear cone and match its RPM to the output shaft (same RPM as the slider), and only then will the slider be able to continue on to engage the splines on the gear. If the blocker ring does not clutch the gear and match the RPM, you get a grind or a drag. Slick is not good for proper syncro performance!!!!!
So I submit again, Mercon V is less slick than Mercon. Mercon V also has friction increasing characteristics similar HFM transmission oils (Chrylser).
You still have it backwards.
For one, the term friction modifiers is a term very loosely used for all oils and can be misleading. Friction modifiers used in gear oils are not the same as used in engine oil and not the same as used in transmission oils (conventional gear oil or synthetics).
The limited slip or posi requires a friction modifier that increases the friction between the the disks in the clutch pack. This also reduces chatter when there is insufficient friction. This modifier is not the same stuff in your engine oil or transmission oils.
Automatic transmissions also have oil immersed clutch packs that require a modifier to increase their grip, but its not the same stuff used in a posi.
Engine oils get a friction modifier generally to improve its lubricity characteristics (like ZDDP). So its slicker.
Manual transmission synchros (the blocker ring to be precise) require a oil with special friction increasing characteristics. When you are shifting into a gear, the blocker ring encased in the slider is pressing against a matching cone surface on the idler gear (or input shaft for 4th) you are shifting into. The blocker ring has to clutch that gear cone and match its RPM to the output shaft (same RPM as the slider), and only then will the slider be able to continue on to engage the splines on the gear. If the blocker ring does not clutch the gear and match the RPM, you get a grind or a drag. Slick is not good for proper syncro performance!!!!!
So I submit again, Mercon V is less slick than Mercon. Mercon V also has friction increasing characteristics similar HFM transmission oils (Chrylser).
This is VERY interesting...so this would make sense why if Ford switched to Mercon V (a less slick fluid) that there might be a grinding issue? It seems pretty evident if I switched to something significantly more slicker that seemed to solve my/potentially other's problems.
