Charge motion plates re-installed low end power is back!
3/5/08, 09:07 AM
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Charge motion plates re-installed low end power is back!
I have a set of BBR stage 1 cams on my car, and a C&L racer intake. I noticed a big loss in low end power and was thinking it was the cams. After weeks of logging, retuning, logging some more, pestering Doug at bamachips and Chris at BBR I got on the phone with James at SCT and we did some more logging. he suggested that i reinstall the charge motion plates as the drop in manifold pressure from the cams might be stealing all the load and causing the car to advance timing too much. well I went ahead and put the charge motion plates back in and the car CAME ALIVE down low. no more surge in power at 3000 rpms, no more bogginess down low, it is just awesome! even if I give up some top end I can live with it because the car jumps out of the hole like she used to.
just thought i might share.
just thought i might share.
3/5/08, 04:12 PM
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So does it really seem to solve all of your low end issues?? I always thought the charge motion plates just added a little bit to the low end and when you removed them they helped up top!! You need to give this info to BBR in my opinion!!
Scott
3/5/08, 09:26 PM
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big low end problems...GONE. I am going to re-baseline to see what if any was lost up top but it feels seemless now where before there was a huge lurch at 3000 rpm, and allot of bog down low. I shared this with BBR the second i had it fixed. it was like night and day.
3/6/08, 07:11 AM
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According to Steeda you do not have to remove Charge motion Plates for a Supercharger.
"Once tuned charge motion plates will not sacrifice any low end torque and provide midrange and upper rpm horsepower and torque increases. Peak increases of 10 horsepower or more have been seen on naturally aspirated applications, larger gains possible on supercharged engines"
Steeda.com
"Once tuned charge motion plates will not sacrifice any low end torque and provide midrange and upper rpm horsepower and torque increases. Peak increases of 10 horsepower or more have been seen on naturally aspirated applications, larger gains possible on supercharged engines"
Steeda.com
3/6/08, 08:56 AM
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Just a question: since the delete plates require a re-tune, is it possible that the delete tune was off, and putting the plates back in allowed the tune to "work" properly? Did you have to get custom-tuned for the cams?
3/6/08, 09:55 AM
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Depends on the type of supercharger. Centrifugal's they'll stay in but positive displacment they'll be removed.
According to Steeda you do not have to remove Charge motion Plates for a Supercharger.
"Once tuned charge motion plates will not sacrifice any low end torque and provide midrange and upper rpm horsepower and torque increases. Peak increases of 10 horsepower or more have been seen on naturally aspirated applications, larger gains possible on supercharged engines"
Steeda.com
"Once tuned charge motion plates will not sacrifice any low end torque and provide midrange and upper rpm horsepower and torque increases. Peak increases of 10 horsepower or more have been seen on naturally aspirated applications, larger gains possible on supercharged engines"
Steeda.com
3/6/08, 10:50 AM
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Doug at bamachips was connected remotely to my car over the internet while I had it on the dyno, and sent me several tunes trying to get the low end torque back, and he tried every trick in the book. it looks like the combination of my BBR stage 1 cams and the cmdp's just was not good.
The plates restrict airflow at low rpm, and with my cams pulling way too much air in at low rpm it bogged. kind of like overcarbing would cause a bog out of the hole.
the low end was GONE. and i mean GONE!
look at the dyno sheet below. that will give you an idea of how wrong it was.
3/6/08, 11:23 PM
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apparently nobody "approved" my attachment...
anyway I loved having my torque back so much that I took the BBR stage 1 cams out altogether. looking at the dyno sheets from the last few months I decided a gain of 10 rwhp, and 16 lb of torque above 4700 rpm is not worth the losses accross the entire powerband below that.
The cams were advertised as making power from 1500-6000 rpm. but the real world numbers are saying loss until 4700, then small gain.
Chris at BBR has been very cool to deal with so far. I just hope we can work something out otherwise I am out $600.00
stay tuned....
I wonder if the CMDP's would help out now that I have stock cams? hmmm...
anyway I loved having my torque back so much that I took the BBR stage 1 cams out altogether. looking at the dyno sheets from the last few months I decided a gain of 10 rwhp, and 16 lb of torque above 4700 rpm is not worth the losses accross the entire powerband below that.
The cams were advertised as making power from 1500-6000 rpm. but the real world numbers are saying loss until 4700, then small gain.
Chris at BBR has been very cool to deal with so far. I just hope we can work something out otherwise I am out $600.00
stay tuned....
I wonder if the CMDP's would help out now that I have stock cams? hmmm...
Last edited by Faber; 3/6/08 at 11:25 PM.
3/7/08, 05:25 AM
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I never put much faith into the claims that the CMCV plates do nothing for low end and all the "rah rah" advice to get the CMCV delete plates. Ford is not a company that likes to install complicated and expensive devices on cars for absolutely no reason. If it can legitimately increase gas mileage, reduce emissions, and possibly boost power output, they will try to add it.
3/7/08, 07:13 AM
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Faber,
If you have your stock cam back I would try the CMDP's again and if possible. throw it on a dyno again to know for sure. I did not feel any loss when I installed mine but you never know. Good to hear your car is running good again. However I am pretty sure I lost .5 GPM when I installed mine.
I have seen a few dyno sheets with CMDP's installed and everyone had an increase in TQ and HP accross the power band.
If you have your stock cam back I would try the CMDP's again and if possible. throw it on a dyno again to know for sure. I did not feel any loss when I installed mine but you never know. Good to hear your car is running good again. However I am pretty sure I lost .5 GPM when I installed mine.
I never put much faith into the claims that the CMCV plates do nothing for low end and all the "rah rah" advice to get the CMCV delete plates. Ford is not a company that likes to install complicated and expensive devices on cars for absolutely no reason. If it can legitimately increase gas mileage, reduce emissions, and possibly boost power output, they will try to add it.
3/7/08, 07:21 AM
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I never put much faith into the claims that the CMCV plates do nothing for low end and all the "rah rah" advice to get the CMCV delete plates. Ford is not a company that likes to install complicated and expensive devices on cars for absolutely no reason. If it can legitimately increase gas mileage, reduce emissions, and possibly boost power output, they will try to add it.
3/7/08, 07:28 AM
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Except we are talking sub-3000 RPM performance. Most dyno sheets show data from 3000-6000+ RPM and rarely focus on the low end numbers.
FRPP / Ford Racing isn't the OEM, although they do sell OEM parts and aftermarket parts.
3/7/08, 07:54 AM
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Like I said I have seen dyno sheets from 1500 showing gains, I will try and find them. Do you have any dyno sheets proving there is no gain or loss below 3000 RPM or is this your opinion?
3/7/08, 11:30 AM
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If delete plates cost a little (5HP?) below 3K, I will pose a question: So what? When you launch at the drag strip, you're at 3K plus, especially with an auto and a converter. With a stock converter, you flash up to 3K awfully quick, so there's no appreciable power cost to it. On the road course, you're never UNDER 3400 RPM unless you spun, or did something equally silly. Again, no cost.
For a street car, driven by a non-enthusiast, MAYBE, just MAYBE, they'll notice a slight decrease in the "grunt" factor gently pulling away from a stop sign. In the end, it's a "race" part, intended for "race" usage.
Also, my understanding of the function of the part is to tumble the air charge, increasing turbulance to promote more complete combustion, thus reducing emissions (notice we have no EGR valve!) and slightly increasing mileage, to help Ford's CAFE numbers. I don't believe that it has anything at all to do with power increases.
For a street car, driven by a non-enthusiast, MAYBE, just MAYBE, they'll notice a slight decrease in the "grunt" factor gently pulling away from a stop sign. In the end, it's a "race" part, intended for "race" usage.
Also, my understanding of the function of the part is to tumble the air charge, increasing turbulance to promote more complete combustion, thus reducing emissions (notice we have no EGR valve!) and slightly increasing mileage, to help Ford's CAFE numbers. I don't believe that it has anything at all to do with power increases.
3/10/08, 03:39 PM
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Well I talked to chris at BBR again today about my situation and he was surprised at the results as well. Great guy though. I gotta say BBR has EXCELLENT customer service. he is giving me a credit for the cams so it looks like I am gonna try some pullies next. anybody have any suggenstions? so far I have 4.10 gears, C&L racer intake, headers, offroad h-pipe, and straight through mufflers, and a short throw shifter.