Skotty

I thought the incident of the guy letting his kid talk on the traffic control radio was interesting (though unworthy of media frenzy), as I could see people having a wide variety of reactions to it, all with some merit. What should happen to this guy?

Skotty

Allowing multiple choice on this one, as they are not all mutually exclusive.

05GT-O.C.D.

Aaah, didn't know it was multiple options. I went w/ choice 3. They have to do something as rules were clearly broken, but this is being made into waaay to big of a deal. I'm sure that's a very stressful job and this probably brough a little levity to it. There needs to be some discipline to reinforce to others that it's not acceptable, but the media is pushing it overboard. It was cute, the pilots seem to enjoy it, and I'm sure it brought a smile to a lot of people's faces. I'm also sure that dad, the experienced controller was right there the whole time and could get immediately involved in time to prevent anything the kid could've screwed up. It'd be different if he said "Here son, you take the controls while I go to the bathroom," but I'm sure that didn't happen.
Just my opinion based on what I've seen of the story.
And no, if I was a passenger on the plane I would not have cared.

zzcoop

If a kid can bring down a plane by talking over the radio, then the terrorists deserve to win.

cdynaco

Totally blown out of proportion. Freakin' sensational news cranks are bored.
I remember my Dad taking me to work and what a good impression it had on me. I remember going to my Uncles who was a train Dispatcher near Chicago, and him looking over my shoulder, telling me exactly what to say, and letting me submit a Dispatch. It was cool for a kid and totally responsible. Hell the libs even have 'take your daughter to work day' (but not for boys ).

Teaching your kids thru fun 'on the job' excercies - all the while being a total responsible adult and carrying out your responsibility to the full - does not deserve being fired or slayed by the 'hollywood news' media.

houtex

It is not being made into a big ENOUGH deal. This is bad, folks, really bad. It has nothing to do with the 'feel good' item of taking the kid to work. It has everything to do with professionalism at a high risk busy airport. It has everything to do with proper decorum at a job where others lives are at risk. This is not like being at a McDonalds and taking an order, folks. Supervised or not, this was highly ill advised.

8pm is not exactly a 'not busy' time at JFK. While it was short... it's still disruptive to get the child on and off the radio headset, I'm sure. Disruption could happen in a few moments. Anyone remember the 737 landing on top of the commuter plane in LA? http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19910201-0 and http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19910201-1
Perfect example. Thankfully, that didn't happen in this case. But it could have.

News media should blow this out of proportion, in my opinon. It's asinine. It's not like it's some little podunk airport with a minimal of traffic... and even then, aviation enthusiast that I am... that is completely, inexcusably the absolutely *wrong* thing to do. An airport tower is supposed to be nigh on a fortressed tower, nobody except the correct personnel running the show, directing the lives of countless others day in and day out. And then this happens, at one of the worlds most famous airports. Good grief. Honestly.

Both of those people (the controller, and the supervisor) need to be lookin' for another job, and that's the truth. I really hate to say that, as I understand the motive, but seriously, it is just nowhere near being appropriate. And the message needs to be sent throughout the industry: DO NOT DO THIS.

/Would you like your airliner to be flown by the captain's 8 year old son or daughter too, while we're at it?
//or perhaps you'd like your car's transmission to be worked on by a 9 year old?
///not that they couldn't do it... but still.

GottaHaveIt

Just what if say a kid didn't know what to do and there were no adults around be it teroist or other I think it good but maybe it souls have been done in a pre measured environment so come the day we need a kid one may know what to do.

Take one day my son was given a chance to operate a super ferry never know when or if it'll ever be needed but maybe he'll want to be a pilot or air traffic controller one day through a little inspiration

cdynaco

So I take it your Daddy never let you 'drive the car' down a dirt road or side street while sittin' on his lap when you were a kid? (Which means your Dad was in total control while he let you steer.)

I have not read anything to this point that suggests the kids were left alone to do their task. The instructions were obviously laid out by the adults, others in the tower doing their job, while the adult stood over every utterence of the kid... and I also read the pilots were aware....

None of this suggest anyone in any aircraft - or on the ground - was in any more danger than if the kids hadn't been there.

Now if the adults were texting (like some engineers on trains where no on else is in control or on standby) that would have been a different story. But I have not read any such disclosure thus far.

houtex

As a matter of fact, I do not believe he did. He did, when I was 12 maybe, let me 'drive' a '57 TBird in the parking lot once. That's not the same as driving on the actual road. It was more like puttin' around in a big *** circle. My foot never left the brake and there was *nothing* around to get hurt... except the car, and us in it. This is *completely* different than that.

---

It does not matter what the adults were doing, they are WRONG. Job losing wrong.

If a local reporter brandishing a stick to point out how an observational location near an airport could be used to launch shoulder mounted missiles can get those observational locations CLOSED (to this day, mind)... then this is just as heinous, in my opinion.

That is a true story. The observation area near Garrett Aviation at IAH is not accessible any longer... unless you like being arrested. Here is the observation area. Isn't it nice? I've been there... before 9/11 happened.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&so...03484&t=h&z=19

And here is the roadblock preventing you from being there, still there, to this day:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&so...=12,91.37,,0,5

And all because of a report on Houston's Channel 13, KTRK, a couple of months or so after 9/11, scared the bejezus outta someone at the Airport Authority or such:
http://www.petitiononline.com/saveiah/petition.html

So if an overzealous local reporter causes a direct overreaction that makes what was (and still is) a wonderful observation area, built by the city for that purpose, to be barricaded, to this day... why is it 'ok' for a KID to be directing the traffic at any airport?

FRACKIN' SAFETY FIRST, right? Or I'd be able to drive into that observation cuddle sack again... and if that happened.... then I *might* be ok with the kids. I highly doubt it though. If I was a passenger on an airplane and heard about it... I would be *highly* pissed off, especially in this day and age of "zOMG TERRISTS!!11" The thought that the REAL controller wasn't directing traffic... that's just plain scary sounding.

But the real bottom line is this... if the FAA, and local Airport Authorities are so intent on things being safe... if they're so into the safety aspects of the aviation industry... this incident cannot be allowed to pass with no punishment. And the only punishment that's correct is... Those guys are toast, job wise.

Visiting the control tower is one thing. I've done it myself, at IAH, when I was a Cub Scout. Nifty experience. But no way in hell was I allowed to touch *anything* or even talk in the tower... that was made perfectly clear. If we had a question, we had to exit the tower itself and ask it to the person conducting the 'tour'. This type of incident would have been completely out of the question, and in my opinion, rightfully so.

Another comparison... how about your doctor brings his 10 year old to cut a couple of your innards (under supervision, of course) while being worked on for, oh, I dunno, come up with an internal operation. That would go over so very well, right? Doogie Howser type stuff, right? "He's gonna be a doctor anyway, might as well start now!" Of course, everything was under control, Doogie was only cutting a little fat outta the way, no big deal, right?

Methinks you'd have the opinion of that that I have of this tomfoolery in the JFK tower.

/sounds a little like 'get off my lawn', right? Oh well.
//I really wanted to be left there in the tower that day to watch the airplanes and listen...
///I really need to get back to the airport and watch planes from the roof parking again...

Cusp

Does anyone think that the controller and supervisor left the kid in charge while they went out for a burger? I am sure the kid was being monitored word for word and was being coached on exactly what to say. I don't see any safety risk what so ever. The Pilots did not have any problem with it. I could detect some pilots thought it cute. Non pilots may not know this, but the role of ATC is more of a helper than an absolute authority barking orders to automatons. Final authority for the operation and safety of the flight rests on the shoulders of the Pilot in command. Not ATC. The PIC knows what instructions to expect from ATC and can reject those instructions which in the PICs judgment can not be safely performed. Hence Captian Sulley's rejection of instructions to land on a runway; Informing ATC that he would be in the Hudson instead. Pilots know theirs is the final authority as to the operation of their ship. They know what works for them and what to expect from ATC. I am sure that hearing a kids voice on the radio caused some pause. I am sure they double checked that the instructions were the expected ones and made sense before executing them.
The system works because Pilots and Controllers (helpers) work to back each other up. Both make mistakes but between the two, mistakes get detected and corrected.
Should kids be allowed to deliver instructions to airplanes. I don't think its a good idea because it tarnishes the professionalism of ATC in the public's eye. Maintaining the image is important after all.


The only damage done was to the pride of the service.

codeman94

Someone should get Sulley's opinion on this.... I"m sure his wisdom would shed some light on what would be appropriate.

Sendero

If you think the kid(s) commands over the ATC frequencies presented any risk to air traffic in the New York area I have money in a Nigerian bank account with your name on it. If you've listened to the audio recordings, not the butchered clips of the child talking, and understand anything about ATC the idea of the kid(s) "controlling" aircraft is asinine.

Some things to think about:

• Tower Cab's are not considered a "Sterile" enviroment.
• Tower Cab's are not off limits to escorted personnel.
• During Controller training who's really in control of Air Traffic, the trainer or trainee?
• Why are their no FAR's restricting radio communications to licensed individuals only?

You want to call it unprofessional, fine; simple discipline and move on. Yes, I am a pilot.

The word every pilot should know... Unable.

05GT-O.C.D.

Seems the media thinks this is a much bigger deal than pilots do. Who do you trust more?

Sendero

Warning, MP3 ahead: One Pilot weighs in on this issue.

There are many more just like him, they just aren't being recorded on LiveATC.net.

For those without accounts at AOPA I've attached the file below.

05GT-O.C.D.

Must create an account and log in... got a synopsis?

Sendero

I attached the file above.

05GT-O.C.D.

Yup. That about sums it up.

Rob O

I don't necessarily think it's an offense warranting termination but I think a few weeks suspension would suffice & make an example for others. Now the fact that he brought his daughter to work the next day & did the same thing puts a little different spin on it, the controller knew it was wrong the first time and did it anyway but then repeats this the very next day....sounds like maybe some real problems there. I wouldn't want to be on one of those planes with a kid in the tower. Bottom line, the pilot has command of the aircraft and the decisions made are his alone.

GottaHaveIt

Thanks I guess that about somes it up then:
http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/article...ontroller.html

Flagstang

He wasnt bringing planes in. he was ok'ing them to talk to departure. A very different thing. Its like transfering a call. people need to get a grip. I can tell that 90% of the people that are mad over this know nothing about planes. I think the 10% that do know about planes and are mad are the people that get pissed over anything and everything.